Curse

MaxBorken · Jan 07, 2015, 10:48 PM // 22:48

I'm writing this in response to comments made in the sell section recently, because this would be the correct place to have this discussion, rather than in a sell thread.
Please don't make this about PhD, its my issue, and frankly I can't believe I'm the only one vocalising it. I know others feel the same through talking with you all ingame. It's not about my ego either. I didn't bid high on Coffee's r7 -2-2 SoTW because I already had 2, one with the matching stats in the same order. Losing a shield in a bidwar isnt about ego, its about economics. I don't have to prove myself in a bidwar any more. There is no ego involved so please don't make it out to be.

What happened to me.....

Well, the bumbling skint Max is still here, but hes frustrated. Very frustrated. And a tad less skint after a few savvy trades. I worked very hard to build my collections and reputation. Very hard indeed. I scraped and saved hard to afford some of the pieces in my collection, doing it the right way. The honest way. The gentlemanly way. Trading items in order to fund my collection. And it took me years. Just one year ago, I had a titanic bid war with Tooburns for a r9 -2-2(10%) Eternal shield from Cailin. That was regarded as massively overpriced, but I wanted it, so I bidwarred with Tooburns. We were both happy with the way it was conducted, and he was graceful enough to allow me to have it in the end. That went for 1750e, after about 3 days and many out-bids.

The r9 -2-2 Eternal on sale at the moment (not as rare as the one myself and Tooburns fought over) went hugely over that price in under an hour, with some gigantic bids from someone nobody has heard of. Of course, people have every right to bid on items, and at no point have I said otherwise.

And this is happening all over the game, on all items. It's the hyper-inflation I warned about in another thread, as a result of internet-purchased armbraces and ectos. Indeed, one of the bidders on the r9 eternal has openly bragged about buying 200a from another site (black background, claims to be for pvp).

It is undermining everything that we have worked so hard to build here. So why am I increasingly bitter and grumpy? Because all of my hard work is being undone, and I seem the be the only one saying anything about it. Since Anet stopped policing botting, there are hundreds more Echovald shields on the market botted from Drazach Thicket. That undermines all of your awesome achievements too, Calli. You of all people will understand what effect this has on our collections. A year ago, I tentatively valued my collection at 1500-1750a, and that was stretching it. Based upon recent bids, it would now be worth more than 5000a. Probably far more. That's in ONE year. If a r9 Eternal goes for more than 60a, imagine what the r8 you bought and donated to my collection would have cost you now. It's bonkers. Prices these days are complete fantasy, driven by people buying their armbraces for real money and throwing them around like confetti.

So if I'm bitter and grumpy, its for the reasons I mentioned. I won't apologise for it, because my achievements here mean something to me. I'm proud of what I have done here, and am grateful to the Captain for having faith in me, listening to and endorsing my vision for PhD. To see it all being undermined like this would send anybody who cared bitter.

Grumpus Maximus.

**cosyfiep** · Jan 07, 2015, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Yes, I wish that anet was policing the game more as well...makes MY job here harder too.

reporting gold sellers ingame does nothing now, I have seen the same gold seller in eye of the north for MONTHS now (and yes you have all seen him too). I guess since they have their cash sow (gw2) they no longer need to patrol our game and that makes it the place for sharks

I will allow this post as long as the DISCUSSION is CIVIL...NO flaming

or I will close it and the flamers will feel my new ban stick (and he doesnt listen either just does):

The Mountain · Jan 07, 2015, 11:40 PM // 23:40

A big part of the inflation of the item you note in particular is also your collection, you must remember. As a person who similarly hoarded everything I could find of a certain type of weapon and witnessed the price increases, I can say it's quite natural.

I learned this lesson years ago when I recognized there were exactly three ded visu mini pets on the market being traded around. I knew that I could scrape together enough to buy the three and did so promptly. Within weeks, the price had skyrocketed, and I gained some cash.

Can anyone then be shocked that magmas, echovalds, dual reds, o/s crys, and nerfed weapons (to name a few item types related to specific collections) rose in prices? You also witnessed the reverse as echovalds have fallen significantly in price (and magmas, less so) since the collections became largely available to the public again. With that demand lowered, gothics rose as has been seen in the last two perfect r9 sales on guru (cheers for that, Calli).

That's not to say that purchased igg has no influence and that fake bidders are not possible, but I would say the availability of the items has a bigger impact.

RosettaStoned · Jan 08, 2015, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Max - "Indeed, one of the bidders on the r9 eternal has openly bragged about buying 200a from another site (black background, claims to be for pvp)."

i hope you're not talking about me, i never said that. i just want the shield, i dont want to fight or flame about anything. if you outbid me then so be it, im not going to assume you cheated to get your money.

as for the economy, its changes all the time, i remember when ecto were going for 5k each. i guess the people who can predict it the best are the richest folks.

Surge goes pre · Jan 08, 2015, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Mountain

A big part of the inflation of the item you note in particular is also your collection, you must remember. As a person who similarly hoarded everything I could find of a certain type of weapon and witnessed the price increases, I can say it's quite natural.

I learned this lesson years ago when I recognized there were exactly three ded visu mini pets on the market being traded around. I knew that I could scrape together enough to buy the three and did so promptly. Within weeks, the price had skyrocketed, and I gained some cash.

Can anyone then be shocked that magmas, echovalds, dual reds, o/s crys, and nerfed weapons (to name a few item types related to specific collections) rose in prices? You also witnessed the reverse as echovalds have fallen significantly in price (and magmas, less so) since the collections became largely available to the public again. With that demand lowered, gothics rose as has been seen in the last two perfect r9 sales on guru (cheers for that, Calli).

That's not to say that purchased igg has no influence and that fake bidders are not possible, but I would say the availability of the items has a bigger impact.

I completely agree with this. The example I use is when my friend Mia owned the vast majority of Unded MKG's on the market a few years ago. Sure the price rose crazy, because he hoarded the supply. But if he went to sell them, he might sell the first couple high. But when he got around to the 5th, the supply would have gone right back up and the price would have gone right back down.

To back this up. Since that monopoly on MKG prices has been split up, prices have fallen on unded MKG from 600a at the peak to roughly 400-450a I believe. With room to fall more probably.

I think this is what is happened to Dual Reduction Shields, Max.

I think ebayed armbraces are just magnifying the effect. You physicists will enjoy and understand my thought here. I think this the second order effect on the price of dual reductions. I think the first order effect (the one that has the biggest influence) is the lack of supply.

About Magma's, the nice magmas are still worth a fortune as we/I know

.

Calli · Jan 08, 2015, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Thank you, Gregor, for a lucid forum post in a useless thread. It would seem quite obvious that when there is less of something to go around, the price people are willing to pay for it will increase.

When I was still building the Echovald collection, prices skyrocketed because I was willing to outbid everyone on shields I still wanted for the collection. I hoarded them unhealthily and wouldn't let them go anywhere until I got over it. The difference is that I didn’t raise a fuss every time one went up for sale, or go around forums bashing people who bid against me for suspected gold/ecto/armbrace/whatever buying. It would have reflected poorly on me, my guild, and my friends, and I would likely have experienced what you are experiencing now.

As far as botting and/or gold buying undermining my ‘awesome achievements’, I doubt it. An Echovald collection of that magnitude and completeness will never exist again, so I don’t feel diminished in the least bit. People have been botting/buying gold for years, and they’re botting/buying gold now (my closet knows). I’m sure I bought shields from people who were botting various Echovald Forest areas. And -surprise!- now that they’re not all hoarded in one location, their value has dropped while that of other skins has increased (you’re welcome, Gregor).

Sure, purchased armbraces used to bid against you can be annoying. I get that. Honestly though, I think this is something you have brought on yourself. Treat other bidders with at least some shred of dignity, or don't say anything at all.

Enchanted Krystal · Jan 08, 2015, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaxBorken

This is what we like. This is what we do. This is who we are. Teh Academy [PhD] Don't call us, we'll call you.

EDIT: This is not directed at one person either.
I really cringe when I see this posted by our members, to me it was fun the 1st time it was posted, but now it’s a little disrespectful to others IMO.

I love PhD as it is a guild of my friends & pals, but we are not the "Be all & End all" of GW. There are a lot of other PRO guilds out there that deserve more respect than us, due to their pvp skills. Yes, we are a collection of collectors, but remember what a collector is...

hoarder
ˈhɔːdə(r)/
noun
noun: hoarder; plural noun: hoarders

a person who hoards things.
"I'm a bit of a hoarder"
synonyms: collector, saver, gatherer, accumulator, magpie, squirrel

You are not the Lone Ranger when it comes to inflated prices, I experienced this with my Magmas Collection and I only had myself to blame. Build a bridge & get over it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surge goes pre

About Magma's, the nice magmas are still worth a fortune as we/I know

.

Any item is only worth what a buyer will pay for it, fullstop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calli

The difference is that I didn’t raise a fuss every time one went up for sale, or go around forums bashing people who bid against me for suspected gold/ecto/armbrace/whatever buying. It would have reflected poorly on me, my guild, and my friends, and I would likely have experienced what you are experiencing now.

As far as botting and/or gold buying undermining my ‘awesome achievements’, I doubt it. An Echovald collection of that magnitude and completeness will never exist again, so I don’t feel diminished in the least bit.

+1 100%

I also agree with letting the stuff go back into the GW community. I am very pleased to see so many Magmas getting such love these days & I feel chuffed that I was able to find loving homes for a lot of the ones I hoarded. I absolutely loved getting that full set of dual reduction Magmas together for the 1st time ever, no one can ever take that away from me, but there was no point in locking then away forever. Why not share the love? The biggest thrill for me was the chase & the final screen shot.
It’s not what we hoard that defines us, it’s how we act & inspire others.

This is just my opinion.

~EK~

Jansy · Jan 08, 2015, 02:58 AM // 02:58

Interesting post. I would like to congratulate everyone on having an appreciation for collectibles within this game. I would like to consider myself a collector, even without particular credentials. As merchants, we have searched Tyria, Cantha and Elona for valuables. Only now, a drought begins to start making it's way into these promised lands. We can do nothing but accept that the drought will continue. Only work harder to make sure these treasures come back into our hands.

Secondly, this is just like life itself right? We have doctors in society and we also have bad people doing illegal things. Hey, it's life. All we can do is be the good in the mouth of torment and understand the real reason why we signed up for what we do. Collect.

MaxBorken · Jan 08, 2015, 08:49 AM // 08:49

It's easy to give advice like 'get over it' etc if you have stopped the chase and sold off some your collections. And I mean no disrepect. However I am (for now) still chasing. But the gentlemanly way simply cannot match the influx of purchased armbraces. Perhaps the gentleman collector is a relic himself who should roll over and die, but I have more fight in me than that. I already retired from spending hours in Kamadan for this reason.

It seems that a few of you are saying 'if you can't beat em, join em'. And that would sadden me.

Max

BlankCode · Jan 08, 2015, 09:25 AM // 09:25

Hello guys. I'm probably a nobody person aswell, but i do have a statement on everything that is happening.

The truth is that this game will come to and end eventually, even though a lot of people come back from Guild Wars 2... Today we sit and rage over bids on virtual goods in a game, that soon might even come to its end.
The only thing that is keeping this game alive is the massive accounts used for bots, which show a big amount online to Anet. Ussualy, bots and so other produce the goods for the online sellers to sell which truly wrecks the economy.
But i'ts rather strange to involve [PhD], because there is a member from your guild who sells accounts, ectos,arms and all kind of stuff for real cash on forums like Epvpers and Gamervision.. Have you ever though checking about such stuff happening in your guild? And yes i know that [PhD] has not much involvment into this argumen you guys have over collections.
About that life is the same thing.. True but in life people do something. In games there isn't much consequences, therfore giving life as example in this case will be pretty bad, because as i stated.. life have consequences but in games there is no life treatening or any social violation that leads to big consequences rather then few pixels gone more in price which is paid by pixel money or the item is just dissapearing etc...

In the end you guys argue and wreck your nurveous system with rather ingame goods that you struggled with years to collect and yet they will come to an end, maybe even soon. The game is a dieng no matter what you put there, thats why everyoen is trying to sell arms/ectos etc etc.. for real money, because they want their virtual goods to go up.
Also im over 1000% sure that there are collectors who BOT for their cash, but of course you can't prove someone owns another account, except Anet.

I think we are all missing the point of enjoyment in the game at the moment iwth this economic "crysis" we keep talking about. Because less and less people spend time caring about the general look on the game rather then you wan't to spend time wrecking yourself over -"How am i gonna incrase my collection"..
You guys put A LOT of effort on most of your collections for so much years, but dont get so crazy about its.. its all pixel in the end.

Armrbaces will never stop be selling, as i pointed even in your PhD guild there is a seller.
And yes i am a nobody, im just here to sell my stuff, and personaly.. bugging myself constatly on how to finish my collection and how smoeone overbid me over "virtual goods" is rather overhelming.
I see each of your concernes and i think you got your rights, but you guys forgot about the general idea of the game, you just spend your time to get your ecto/arms and gather your collection.. Instead of saying damn i got so much stuff i spend soo much stuff on my collection, my guild is so end-game about such stuff.. damn gather you guild and start reporting and so on the botters/selllers, eventually Anet will either get annoyed and stop the game or they will just take measures. I've sent reports on most of the JQ bots ive had replys from Anet, i dont'know if measures will be taken over this reports but, i tried!?

Please guys, dont wreck yourself over a dieng game that much, there are many to come.. If so try to ressurect it by massive reports and taking out the bots/sellers from your own GUILDS

.

I hope you have good time in GW and enjoy life more!

P.S: This is my own look of the view around this case. Also im willing to give more info towards the seller that i spoken of in PhD if they wan't to believe. I can also give evidence

Matrix Arcade · Jan 08, 2015, 11:47 AM // 11:47

Calli and Blankcode, nice posts. @Cosy, this is a useless post but just want to extent my appreciation.

A small side note:

I'm getting slightly tired with all this "gentleman talk". First off, its just a game in which you are collecting virtual goods. This is a nice pursuit and way to spend your free time but lets not get too serious. Secondly a slightly more serious note, I have been approached by various "gentlemanly" traders as they call themselves with PayPall transaction offers. Despite having no interest in these kind of affairs I don't report or name these people, since they are also the people most active in the trading game and for a big part enable GW's community to still have an interesting economy. However, don't come messing about with your gentlemanly manners.

PS.@Cosy, if this is too much of an attack post you can delete it no probs.

MaxBorken · Jan 08, 2015, 01:26 PM // 13:26

Hmm. Then it seems I am chasing a unicorn. It's a real shame. But in that case I have to accept that the way I approach this game has to change. I have always enjoyed being part of the community, but it seems I have been misty-eyed about trading and collecting. Perhaps I enjoyed being part of something big, and lost sight of reality.

I'll always have my friends here, but it seems that I have some soul searching to do as to my future in Guildwars.

Max

BlankCode · Jan 08, 2015, 01:49 PM // 13:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaxBorken

Hmm. Then it seems I am chasing a unicorn. It's a real shame. But in that case I have to accept that the way I approach this game has to change. I have always enjoyed being part of the community, but it seems I have been misty-eyed about trading and collecting. Perhaps I enjoyed being part of something big, and lost sight of reality.

I'll always have my friends here, but it seems that I have some soul searching to do as to my future in Guildwars.

Max

I can't say if you ment that sarcasticly but, Max cmon.. its a game ^^.
We were blessed with this game for over 8 years now, a wonderful piece of diamond in our hands, a game that wont ever bee seen in the next few years.
The idea is you are right.. about bids and stuff, you worked hard. I've seen a lot of my friends complain on various games over bots/RL money trading for vritual goods. You all have a point, but if we don't all the community gather and start repoting and complaning eventually Anet will put silly updated once in a year to just make an illusion of them caring about GW1.
They gave up on GW1 its a fact, that ruined the economy in my opinion aswell. We the players left this game to be rotten by bots and etc.
A lot of old games are against bots and so on.. so they gather as a COMMUNITY to solve this problem.
People often blame other people for their own mistake and our mistake as a community is letting them pass. Each day we see bot on JQ, each day i hear a lot of more people saying.. thanx to them we have more Faction in our guild .. or i make easier zkeys.. NO. Each day you leave them BOT so that they can slowly kill the game, but the truth is.. the real truth to all virtual good sellers for real life cash is - That sort of trading kills the game economy at this point of the game. The game itself can't handle this. Each place that someone go and bot, then gets massivly botted makes the area of farming destroyed for other people or overfarmed till that point it isn't costing any value.
I believe that GW Guru as a community can form itself and start banishing this plague.
Because today we talk about economy, but the whole point isnt economy its the game itself as that, games are ment to ENTERTAIN you and not to sirve you as a alternate life where you gain FAME for something.
If you aren't recognized in real life, or you don't feel recognized enough work towards that in real life

Games are ment to be played for FUN and not fame. This kind of statement im sending to each boter/sller of virtual goods for irl cash that is currently in gw guru and abusing its powers over this, watching how good collectors spent tons of time ruining what they spent so much time for.

And to all traders, collectors here. This is a game, it has a piece of real life in it but not that big so that we can cry over or get depressed. Just enjoy the game with your friends, do what you used to do years back when 250e was a lot.. Care less about how much ecto you have and armbraces. Each of yours collections are unique, you have spent tons of times collecting over the years in that case all you guys are unique, but the hassle you give over a dieng game is too big, even though you don't realise it.
Also please check the newbie players that join the game, because most newbie players are kind of smacked down, due to richer players show off and believing the newbs have no place with US.. but that is not true!

I hope someone understands my point and maybe wan't to do something abou the general idea.

To the mod : please don't delete this post, its ment to inspire people and to show someone who is "nobody" point of view in the game, someone who isn't collecting that much and someone who isnt rich and someone who don't care that much about the ecto/armbraces themselves.

.

Coffee Man · Jan 08, 2015, 01:54 PM // 13:54

I'm not gonna say much about the topic, but I would like to remind everyone what really matters about our collections (or atleast for me).

For me what is so important about my collections is not what items I have and how I got them, not even IF I acquired them, but the friends I made along the way and all the nice moments I had with them. That's after all what made collecting fun. Sure the thrill of finding cool and rare items are nice, but friendships and good memories win any day. And they last longer. I have good friends from old days whom I still talk to. That is worth more than pixels all day long

That's also partially why I customize my weapons, since they remind me of all my friends who I got along the way, whom helped me and laughed with me etc. Aka they remind me of the good times that i experienced in gw.

I think people in general focus too much on the actual items these days, rather than that, and it kinda saddens me.. (not saying everyone does, no flaming!!). Instead we all should direct our energy towards these kind of things imo.

I mean you don't have fun in a game if you play it all by yourself and got nobody to share the good moments with. And if you don't have fun, what's the point of doing it? This is my opinion atleast and it's sincerely how I feel.

I hope everyone stops to think a little on this atleast, and that it was a reminder to us all why we enjoyed collecting items in the first place.

BOOM now you all got shiz to think about

PS. This is not directed towards anyone specific, but to each and every one of us.

superraptors · Jan 08, 2015, 02:06 PM // 14:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calli

Thank you, Gregor, for a lucid forum post in a useless thread. It would seem quite obvious that when there is less of something to go around, the price people are willing to pay for it will increase.

When I was still building the Echovald collection, prices skyrocketed because I was willing to outbid everyone on shields I still wanted for the collection. I hoarded them unhealthily and wouldn't let them go anywhere until I got over it. The difference is that I didn’t raise a fuss every time one went up for sale, or go around forums bashing people who bid against me for suspected gold/ecto/armbrace/whatever buying. It would have reflected poorly on me, my guild, and my friends, and I would likely have experienced what you are experiencing now.

As far as botting and/or gold buying undermining my ‘awesome achievements’, I doubt it. An Echovald collection of that magnitude and completeness will never exist again, so I don’t feel diminished in the least bit. People have been botting/buying gold for years, and they’re botting/buying gold now (my closet knows). I’m sure I bought shields from people who were botting various Echovald Forest areas. And -surprise!- now that they’re not all hoarded in one location, their value has dropped while that of other skins has increased (you’re welcome, Gregor).

Sure, purchased armbraces used to bid against you can be annoying. I get that. Honestly though, I think this is something you have brought on yourself. Treat other bidders with at least some shred of dignity, or don't say anything at all.

This should be stickied because it's the truth.

From what ive learn't from trading, the more toxic you are the more likely you will get outbid.

If you lose then move on.

The trading community is on its last legs i feel, i'll be surprised if it can get through to next year with the majority is still here. Being cancerous won't help one bit. Just trade happily and forget who has more armbraces/ectos than you, you will feel more satisfied, i promise.

~sunstrike

Surge goes pre · Jan 08, 2015, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by superraptors

This should be stickied because it's the truth.

From what ive learn't from trading, the more toxic you are the more likely you will get outbid.

If you lose then move on.

The trading community is on its last legs i feel, i'll be surprised if it can get through to next year with the majority is still here. Being cancerous won't help one bit. Just trade happily and forget who has more armbraces/ectos than you, you will feel more satisfied, i promise.

~sunstrike

I agree with that. I get the impression that sometimes people outbid people that they feel are toxic just because they can... lol. But yeah, you just gotta keep chugging along. I lost the dwarven axe to kromp a while back, it sucked. But you just gotta chin up, it if wasn't for that, I wouldn't have gotten many nice other things. So... Just be patient =).

Sort of to your last point about the trading community being on it's last legs, I do think you are right. I think this is the more interesting thing to focus on for the future. I have a feeling we are in for a major price correction in the coming months on certain items extremely high end items - since the majority of people that can afford them are just profiting on each other. I've been talking with a good friend in game about this. =P.

Kanaxai, Panda, IG, MKG, expensive OS items that are going for 100a+ that used to go for ~1000e, etc. I think people may be surprised at what happens to these prices in the coming few months, especially to the minipets. Ofc I can be wrong. =P

Zephyr of Light · Jan 08, 2015, 06:51 PM // 18:51

What can i say, state of the game is that its having twitches before its giving its last breath.

People just pay what they want to give you for it, and other people have no clue about whats going on and sell their items way beyond regular asking price's.

People offered common blue crap for serval hundred thousands of gold, because they know one is looking for and just try to squeeze you out.
While they otherwise would have merched it fifty times over.

Greed, one of the serval sins that just shows its face on the economy, and nobody bats an eye, except for us that see our collection values drop due all this.

Its not my loss if i have to pass up on items because others sell overpriced stuff the wont seem to sell anyway, if it sells i just pity the buyer, shouldnt they know better?
Or do they just take their loss because they want it.

I think we better start accepting that GW will die totally at some point, in the way that botters and gold sellers rule the market till nobody wants to play this game anymore.

And that process has started years ago.

Pleikki · Jan 08, 2015, 07:20 PM // 19:20

I dont think the game is dieing, Economics just change,
and prices and items to be collected etc with it..
its fact that these rare q7-8s and nerfed items are running out soon, and so will the collectors for them.

At one point they are at their highest (now) and probably will drop with collectors quitting and new folks not appreciating their rarity and value, different items will become collectibles, Ive been seeing how economy in gw changed over the years, and ive adjusted with it, ive seen withing PC:ing items example how some ppl still live in the past, thinking item values as they think theyre worth, what they should be worth..

But the game doesnt work that way anymore imo.. Every item has 2 differen prices thesedays, the price that collector/hoarder pay to own the item possibly forever,
and the price that Trader pays to hopefully sell it for profit,
both prices are right, and the price which its sold for depends on current status of the game for demand etc.

Could be that at some point again later alot q7-8's and nerfeds float back to the market from quit ppl, and hoarders selling em, and then they notice the collectors have quit, and prices are dropped back to state they were back in day because new players dont want them anymore because of minis and bds etc?

Noneone can predict that but im not worried about gw, or economy, changes happen ingames and in real life too.. and we change with em

Coast · Jan 08, 2015, 07:24 PM // 19:24

There is no economy, let there be anarchy!

expugnare · Jan 08, 2015, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pleikki

Ive been seeing how economy in gw changed over the years, and ive adjusted with it, ive seen withing PC:ing items example how some ppl still live in the past, thinking item values as they think theyre worth, what they should be worth..

But the game doesnt work that way anymore imo.. Every item has 2 differen prices thesedays, the price that collector/hoarder pay to own the item possibly forever,
and the price that Trader pays to hopefully sell it for profit,
both prices are right, and the price which its sold for depends on current status of the game for demand etc. [...]

Noneone can predict that but im not worried about gw, or economy, changes happen ingames and in real life too.. and we change with em

Wise words from a wise man. Well said Ikki.

As to the rest of this thread ....