Curse

LicensedLuny · Jan 14, 2011, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Don't really get what you mean here? What would be an example then?

Ok, all the "Shield Handle of ..." mods do some kind of +hp, right? So you won't find inherent shields with "dual handle mods" because all the +hp possibilities are in that same mod group.

Both the "Wand Wrapping of ..." mods do some kind of HSR bonus, and you never see inherent wands with dual mods both affecting some kind of HSR (at least, I've never seen or heard of that,) so I assume that HSR bonus for either all spells or a specific attribute's spells is a single mod group as far as inherent wands are concerned.

But there are "Focus Core of ..." that do +hp and there are others that do HCT bonus. I do not think both of those types of bonus are the same mod group in inherent foci. So I think it's quite possible that an inherent focus could exist with, say, +30hp and 10% HCT all spells. You could not recreate that with inscription system, since it would require two focus cores, fortitude and swiftness.

Is that a better explanation?

Bright Star Shine · Jan 14, 2011, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Yup, get it now.. I'll look for one if i go chest running again^^

Hobbs · Jan 15, 2011, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by LicensedLuny

Both the "Wand Wrapping of ..." mods do some kind of HSR bonus, and you never see inherent wands with dual mods both affecting some kind of HSR (at least, I've never seen or heard of that,) so I assume that HSR bonus for either all spells or a specific attribute's spells is a single mod group as far as inherent wands are concerned.

I admit I don't have a screenshot but I'm sure i've seen a wand with 2x HSR Fire Magic 20% so I guess these dropped at some point just like the dual damage reduction shields.

Yawgmoth · Jan 15, 2011, 09:10 AM // 09:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hobbs

I admit I don't have a screenshot but I'm sure i've seen a wand with 2x HSR Fire Magic 20% so I guess these dropped at some point just like the dual damage reduction shields.

Absolutely wrong. Those or nothing similar could have never existed.

Here, have some knowledge:

We got 2 major weapon generation systems and weapon mods can come from different sources, they can be inherent or from core upgrades or from post-nf upgrades and inscriptions (designed as replacements for inherent mods) but the very base of the weapon generation code is common for all kinds of weapons, no matter when or where they dropped. Only some parameters differ.

Since before the first GW release it includes a key procedure that makes it impossible for any weapon to be generated with 2 mods that are cathegorized as the same "functional mod class". I call it the anti-duplication code. Note this doesn't apply just to inherent mods but also upgrades, but I was unable to find out in what order exactly are mods generated and at which point to which exactly effect this code applies.

The code was put there to prevent the game from generating any truly gamebreaking items - it's easy to imagine that items that would stack multiple instances of the same type of mod (like dual +armor or dual enchanting) would have a much bigger impact on the gameplay and game balance than items with multiple different kinds of mods.

Fun Facts and Evidences of existance of this code in the history of GW:

* Outside very specific exceptions that I'll describe below, there have been NO generated items that would have more than 1 mod of the same mod group. As Anet has never before changed a generated weapon in a player's inventory, if one has ever dropped it would exist now, or at least 1 screenshot would exist.

* I strongly believe that the original Unconditional weapons were caused by a rare glitch in this anti-mod-duplication code, when the generation engine first tried producing a weapon with both: an inherent +%DMG/-hp or ene reduction and a corresponding vampiric or zealous prefix. (in effect may have removed the vamp/zealous entirely, and the negative from the dmg mod aswell)

* The old Dual-Reduction shields, as I've explained before, were possible because one particular mod (-1-2dmg in stance) was in a completely separate "mod class" than any other shield mod and as such it could appear on a shield with every other existing shield mod.

* Before Anet deliberately made it an EXCEPTION, for many years this anti-duplication code was preventing weapons that spawned with a "of Mobtypeslaying" suffix to also have a normal damage mod (inherent or inscription). It was commonly known as the "Deathbane Bug" but it was in effect not just in the inscription lands and it's "fix" (rather a workaround of the anti-duplication code) also made possible for inherent dmg mods to spawn on weapons with a mobslaying suffix.

* Currently the ONLY purple/gold weapons from inscribable sources that can occassionally drop with no inscription slot are Staffs. It's a rare occurence ALSO caused by the anti-duplication code in very specific circumstances - you won't get a staff to drop with both HCT Head and HCT inscription, and in some cases when the game rolls such a staff the anti-duplication code removes one of the mods entirely.

* Most recent example - We remember the infamous wands/foci/shields that dropped in the Mausoleum - triple-modded and also 2-modded ones which had 1 inherent and 1 suffix during generation. They have also passed through the anti-mod-duplication code! While it seemed like 2 drop systems working at once - inherent drops with added suffixes, it was just one, the only one, and it has the protection code upon it's foundation. In effect neither of the items that dropped there had the suffix from the same mod class as one of it's inherent mods, for example a wand with a Wrapping couldn't spawn an inherent HSR, but only HCT and/or +Energy mods. As such the old prevention code made probably back in 2004 has saved us from having shields/foci with 2 health mods or dual HSR wands, which even as 2-mod items, would be more gamebreaking than the best triple that exists.

Pleikki · Jan 15, 2011, 10:06 AM // 10:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hobbs

I admit I don't have a screenshot but I'm sure i've seen a wand with 2x HSR Fire Magic 20% so I guess these dropped at some point just like the dual damage reduction shields.

Couldve been possible from mauseleum drops

Bright Star Shine · Jan 15, 2011, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

* I strongly believe that the original Unconditional weapons were caused by a rare glitch in this anti-mod-duplication code, when the generation engine first tried producing a weapon with both: an inherent +%DMG/-hp or ene reduction and a corresponding vampiric or zealous prefix. (in effect may have removed the vamp/zealous entirely, and the negative from the dmg mod aswell)

I don't remember who and where, but some friend of Todie's explained how uncods came to existence. What you explained here, was known as the "fake" uncods, where the zealous/vamp would "cover" the inherent -1 hp/en.

He said that uncods weren't a bug, they were a separate possible inherent mod that could come on your weapon. But after two weeks, the people at Anet thought "Why in gods name would we have +1x % damage with a negative effect, if there is such a thing as uncods?" and thus they removed it, because it made no sense for them to exist in the first place..

_Todeshand_ · Jan 15, 2011, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

I don't remember who and where, but some friend of Todie's explained how uncods came to existence. What you explained here, was known as the "fake" uncods, where the zealous/vamp would "cover" the inherent -1 hp/en.

He said that uncods weren't a bug, they were a separate possible inherent mod that could come on your weapon. But after two weeks, the people at Anet thought "Why in gods name would we have +1x % damage with a negative effect, if there is such a thing as uncods?" and thus they removed it, because it made no sense for them to exist in the first place..

That's Akh's opinion and in my uncond Thread it stands opposed to Yawg's opinion and I have no clue who of them is right

Bright Star Shine · Jan 15, 2011, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Todeshand_

That's Akh's opinion and in my uncond Thread it stands opposed to Yawg's opinion and I have no clue who of them is right

I'm following Akh on this on, honestly, cause it makes sense to me.. Sorry yawg^^

Gutemuh · Jan 15, 2011, 05:49 PM // 17:49

The so called "blue" steel daggers skin. (the one without the hooks)
Are there any max-dmg around? Lots of people looking for them.
I have honestly never seen any blue max. insc. daggers at all.

An old Topic: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/blue-common-skinned-max-r9-t10286485.html?t=10286485&highlight=steel+daggers+ blue

_Todeshand_ · Jan 15, 2011, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gutemuh

The so called "blue" steel daggers skin. (the one without the hooks)
Are there any max-dmg around? Lots of people looking for them.
I have honestly never seen any blue max. insc. daggers at all.

An old Topic: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/blue-common-skinned-max-r9-t10286485.html?t=10286485&highlight=steel+daggers+ blue

No screen, but an (old) claim by someone I'd trust. It's german though, but should be no problem for you at least:

http://www.wartower.de/forum/showthr...ht=stahldolche (#5)

Gutemuh · Jan 15, 2011, 06:32 PM // 18:32

I know Thorgall for a no a bullshit guy and will ask him if I see him online.

Just the fact that he throws the blue (superrare) together with the purple (not rare at all), makes me go hmmmm.

He talks about a friend who sold some blue R10 steel daggers for 50k. Over the years I´ve seen a lot of talk about these daggers, just never a screen.

Muh

Bright Star Shine · Jan 15, 2011, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gutemuh

I have honestly never seen any blue max. insc. daggers at all.

I have, next DoA (i.e. probably when i log on again :P) I will keep an eye out in veil, shittons of white and blue Talon Daggers drop there, so i'll look for you

EDIT: Did not have success last night, but I shall keep an eye open untill I find you a pair^^
Also, found out margonites drop steel daggers, so perhaps one day I'll find your infamous q9 blue max damage pair

Warrior Bradols · Jan 16, 2011, 06:07 AM // 06:07

Whilst in my haste of buying unids for my title, i had got traded a q11 pair of steel daggers (They were gold too) i merched them because i dont see many people asking to buy em. Dunno if this helps you or not.

StueyG · Jan 16, 2011, 07:06 AM // 07:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warrior Bradols

Whilst in my haste of buying unids for my title, i had got traded a q11 pair of steel daggers (They were gold too) i merched them because i dont see many people asking to buy em. Dunno if this helps you or not.

They are specifically talking about the blue color rarity as they have a different skin.

http://www.guildwiki.org/Steel_Daggers Images there if you want to check it out Bradols

Matrix Arcade · Jan 16, 2011, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Maybe I'm stupid and I've had tons drop.. but I can't remember ever getting a blue non-inscribable (or even inscribable for that matter..) shield with 2 mods on it.

Yawgmoth · Jan 16, 2011, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matrix Arcade

Maybe I'm stupid and I've had tons drop.. but I can't remember ever getting a blue non-inscribable (or even inscribable for that matter..) shield with 2 mods on it.

non-insc blue shields/foci/wands cannot drop with 2 mods, insc can.

Warrior Bradols · Jan 17, 2011, 07:28 AM // 07:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by StueyG

They are specifically talking about the blue color rarity as they have a different skin.

http://www.guildwiki.org/Steel_Daggers Images there if you want to check it out Bradols

hahah aight i was mistaken, I thought they ment to gold ones thanks for the link tho.

Hobbs · Jan 17, 2011, 10:31 AM // 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

you won't get a staff to drop with both HCT Head and HCT inscription

Like this one?

KamikazeChicken · Jan 17, 2011, 11:52 AM // 11:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hobbs

Like this one?

That doesn't really do anything to the claim being made Yawgmoth. It's an old staff from before a number of drop spawn changes.

Additional input that's just from existing since Beta: All uncond weapons that I saw sold during their short life of spawning were Vamp and Zealous. Whether this is coincidental or not, who can really say other than the people who coded the drop system. It may, honestly, have simply been a sort of linked mods reminiscent of how Dead Bows always tended to drop consistently for everybody with 2 certain mods (Zealous of Deathbane or something? I hardly remember). Whether or not the actual uncond mod existed or whether everything was just "bugged" by the Vamp and Zealous is simply moot though. A Vamp uncond weapon can be argued by either view... The vamp bugged the conditional state or the uncond just happened to be vamp. Nobody can prove either way. I believe it was all just a glitch in the system of the time, but all anybody really has anymore is their opinion on the matter. So, unless somebody can recall the stance Anet took at the time, which I'm pretty sure they didn't really, it just matters that they exist and people find joy in possessing the small pieces of GW history.

Yawgmoth · Jan 18, 2011, 10:24 AM // 10:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hobbs

Like this one?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shady Guy

Aye, seems that both explanations for the unconditionals are possible, we would need more information to say which is the case for sure. But Hobbs, Yawgmoth said specifically dropped staves, did that staff drop with that staff head or have it put on it later?

When that staff dropped Swift Staff Heads didn't even exist at all. And now anyone can mod a staff like that, old or new one, what matters is that it couldn't have dropped that way and still cannot with 2x hct.