Curse

Fender · Sep 15, 2006, 01:55 PM // 13:55

I posted this over on TGH, but it got dismissed.
Assumptions: both lvl 20, AL60 target, no weapon prefix, only 2 adren skills
DPS of an Evisc+Exec war: 44.0
DPS of a Dismem+Cleve war: 41.9 BUT 50% miore deep wounds

Looking at the GWFC skill usage, most of the evisc+exec wars used the combo about 24 times a match. All things remaining equal, they could do a Dismem+Cleave combo about 36 times a match. 12 more deep wound spikes at the cost of a lower average DPS. Note, I didn't take in to account the health loss from deep wound.

ubermancer · Sep 15, 2006, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fender

I posted this over on TGH, but it got dismissed.
Assumptions: both lvl 20, AL60 target, no weapon prefix, only 2 adren skills
DPS of an Evisc+Exec war: 44.0
DPS of a Dismem+Cleve war: 41.9 BUT 50% miore deep wounds

Looking at the GWFC skill usage, most of the evisc+exec wars used the combo about 24 times a match. All things remaining equal, they could do a Dismem+Cleave combo about 36 times a match. 12 more deep wound spikes at the cost of a lower average DPS. Note, I didn't take in to account the health loss from deep wound.

Your still better off following Dismember with Executioner's on 'serious' spikes (you can use your combo on the more regular spikes). If your spamming Cleave around you can fairly easily preceed a Dismember with a Cleave without arousing suspicion. Try comparing Penetrating+Evisc+Exec vs Cleave+Dismember+Exec.

Edge Of Malan · Sep 18, 2006, 06:08 AM // 06:08

One question...have you tried taking the elite skill that gives adrenaline recharge in conjunction with a few adrenal attacks and a furious weapon to see what the dmg output would be?

dndhatcher · Sep 20, 2006, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Im mostly putting this post in for the person who said that there is only one good skill and build per weapon. I did not see anyone contradict them so I thought I better. I will go on record now saying IMO Neither skill is better for general team PvE. I will explain below, and please understand nothing I am saying is relevant to PvP other than:

"For PvP battles, the spike damage of deep wound is obvously going to make Eviscerate a better choice for at least one Warrior in a group."

Some people seem to think this is debate is relvant to PVE, but there are whole lot of other factors make it theoretical and frivilous (but still fun). The assumptions seems to be that you are supposed to do as much damage as possible and that is the only consideration. In a perfect world with you own personal monk running behind you to keep you alive that might be true, but in a multiple stupid opponent, multiple teammate environment, doing mass damage to one opponent might not be the best job for a Warrior.

Other factors to consider for PvE:
1> the opponent is stupid and can be counted on to do specific repatable behaviours that cna be pridicted and thus controlled.
2> if you are engaging multiple opponents, it is possible you actually need to keep yourself alive as your monk just might have to run around to keep from getting killed.
3> if you can manage to get a bunch of stupid monsters attacking you, and you continue to hit them frequently, they will generally continue to attack you regadless of how suicidal that decision may be. and almost every mob has some hand-to-hand monsters in it.
4> (this one has PvP relevance also) assassins use attack chains that can be rendered useless by blocking
5> you have other people in your group that can ONLY do damage and can NOT absorb damage (mesmers, necros, assassins and eles).
6> you need to protect your weaker teammates so you can not always charge in and attack the targets that need to go down first.

Anyway, for PvE I think you should try to draw as much aggro as possible and hold it. You need to be able to absorb that mass aggro for long enough for the rest of you team to setup and then eliminate the most threatening elements of that mob. I also think you need to minimize the stress you put on the party healers as any backfield squishies getting attacked need their full attention.

My proposal is you try this:
Engage the opposing mob ahead of your party so all their warrior and assassin type attack you. Use cyclone axe to hold their attention (and when you are attacking around 4+ opponents -someone else can do the exact math- cyclone outdamages any other skill) You soften up all their warriors at once forcing any healers to spread their energy out and allow your ranged attackers to pick their target and spike it without fear of reprisal from the enemy warriors. Also this allows your friendly SS Necro to be highly effective as a single SS can take out everything attacing you. Then trigger what is my personal favorite elite skill for PvE - Gladiators Defense. It 75% blocks everything and damages everyone in melee with you. This effect causes the computer healers to have to spead their skills around and burns energy. Another benefit is it eliminates the thread of assassin chains, even from bosses. Because Deep Wound is so effective of a spike damage dealer I like to also have dismember, and it was recently buffed to only 5 adrenalin so it is now very spammable. I like to have one other defensive stance like shield stance to use while gladiators recharges so I can stand up to huge numbers of attacks without taxing the healers.

So anyway, I think that Gladiators Defense is a better PvE skill than either because it both does damage and protects you is far more effective if you are doing the job of controlling enemy aggro and not trying to be the primary damage dealer. Although like Eviscerate, it cna be validly argued that if there is more than one Warrior in the group, it is a skill best left for one of them. (The other should probably have eviscerate and be tasked with quickly dispatching any warrior type that runs by you and attack the weaker party members, then moving to attack high threat targets.)

Sarevok Thordin · Oct 01, 2006, 08:51 PM // 20:51

I'm with Cleave for a number of reasons

Mainly Evicersate is overused like crazy

I had a look over a few factions skills for a bit.......and thought of this

Even tho I'm not up to date on what the favourite skillbars of warriors are, a combo like this could make cleave interesting to use in PvP

Cleave, Exec, Dismember, "You Will Die!", Your favourite IAS here

Try this

Cleave your target for a bit till they get to a certain ammount of HP (perhaps waiting for you to do enough damage to warrent the energy loss to heal). Once it goes down enough, Whip on your IAS and Dismember them for Deep wound. Now your damage does ALOT MORE to their HP bar, CLeave them, Exec them, QUICKLY hit "You Will Die! right as exec hits (they should be below 50% HP by now) and then Cleave them again. They should hit the deck with this.

This chain should do EVEN MORE damage than the normal Evis + Exec combo, allowing you room for the enemy trying to heal, plus your other adren skills will get charged too. Since you put out more damage, even warriors should feel the burn with that combo =p

Oh well, that came off the top of my head in 5 mins, and I can't really experiment till Nightfall comes out anyway (My PvP Slot has a paragon sitting in it >_>)

CalypsoX · Oct 01, 2006, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarevok Thordin

I'm with Cleave for a number of reasons

Mainly Evicersate is overused like crazy

I had a look over a few factions skills for a bit.......and thought of this

Even tho I'm not up to date on what the favourite skillbars of warriors are, a combo like this could make cleave interesting to use in PvP

Cleave, Exec, Dismember, "You Will Die!", Your favourite IAS here

Try this

Cleave your target for a bit till they get to a certain ammount of HP (perhaps waiting for you to do enough damage to warrent the energy loss to heal). Once it goes down enough, Whip on your IAS and Dismember them for Deep wound. Now your damage does ALOT MORE to their HP bar, CLeave them, Exec them, QUICKLY hit "You Will Die! right as exec hits (they should be below 50% HP by now) and then Cleave them again. They should hit the deck with this.

This chain should do EVEN MORE damage than the normal Evis + Exec combo, allowing you room for the enemy trying to heal, plus your other adren skills will get charged too. Since you put out more damage, even warriors should feel the burn with that combo =p

Oh well, that came off the top of my head in 5 mins, and I can't really experiment till Nightfall comes out anyway (My PvP Slot has a paragon sitting in it >_>)

Yes it will, considering you're using only 2 skills in Evisc+Exec vs. in your case 5 or more skills. If you're going to spike someone, you want them to go down as quickly as possible. The only way you're going to be able to pull off your chain is if the other team's monks are afk or braindead.

Sarevok Thordin · Oct 01, 2006, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by CalypsoX

Yes it will, considering you're using only 2 skills in Evisc+Exec vs. in your case 5 or more skills. If you're going to spike someone, you want them to go down as quickly as possible. The only way you're going to be able to pull off your chain is if the other team's monks are afk or braindead.

Actually, 3 in the case of Evis + Exec + Frenzy. only 2 extra here and "You will Die" has NO use time.

So the only extra bit of time is from inflicting the Deep Wound. Also, if the monk manages to heal during your spike you will not be able to get a kill. In this combo, you MAY get the kill with a followup attack or two.

------------EDIT----------------------

On another note

I tried this today.

It kicks serious arse. You can cleave them TWICE in rapid succession after YWD goes off, which can KO even warriors with a bit of luck. The damage output is just stupid. I think I found my new love.

zombie_shrink · Dec 09, 2006, 12:57 AM // 00:57

Can I point out that with the release of Nightfall the axe's spike ability has found a rediculously powerful and previously unmentioned combo with Decapitate, weapon swap for energy, Critical Chop?

bricktamlin · Jan 30, 2007, 11:00 AM // 11:00

I would also like to know what happens when you get hit...ive been thinking about some warrior builds that lower their armor on purpose, in order to get more adrenaline hits *they gain life to make up for it* just wondering if faster adrenaline helps...you might think that the difference doesnt matter cuz its still 4 to 8, but i'm wondering if there is some weird point differential

to the above poster:
you can also use leech signet for some stupid fun: decapitate->leech signet->to the limit->cyclone axe->decapitate

Yukito Kunisaki · May 18, 2007, 06:48 PM // 18:48

I know it's been a while but thanks to all the nerfs to Eviscerate [sob...] it looks like from the recent pages I'm reading, Cleave will win now in terms of overall usage.

We now had a skill that was a combined Dismember + Exe. Strike whittle down to a Cleave + Dismember (for 1 less combined adrenaline to boot)

Seems to me the numbers have hit the point where Cleave should win out using a more massive DPS vs. a single hit 'rare' spike every so often.

You can cleave 2x and dismember in almost the same amount of time it takes to hit with Evis. + Exe. Strike and with more instances of +'d damage [and more reapplication of the dreaded deep wound], that Cleave may be the new elite. Hell, Dismember + Cleave alone is hot and coupled with Dis. Chop as part of a combo: Cleave, Dismember, Disrupting Chop, you've got some crazy shut-out potential.

I'm still feeling [albeit now guilty of fanboyism] a little bit of lovin' for Eviscerate but with these new nerfs to it, I'm starting to wonder [I've got all 3 campaigns btw], if Cleave is now better than Evis with the addition of Dismember + other skills on the skill bar...

Is anyone willing to update the #'s to show this? [or do I need to actually sift through the entire thread to find someone who already did it?]

Any clues / links would help thanks!

yaxattax · Jul 15, 2007, 09:27 PM // 21:27

I made one observation throughout this thread.
Ensign, your posts command belief of others, only through the means of a dismissive manner and providing numbers without any true basis. Where others challenged, you asked them to back up what they said. It must be said however that simply providing numbers (some of which were clearly wrong) on its own form a basis for well, nothing. Meaning that you failed to back up your findings.
Purely for the sake of substantiating what I say, I'll tell you now that your figure of 35.55 average damage per hit was well .... very wrong. Since you're quite the mathematician (or present yourself as such), you can go figure out why ^^

martialis · Jul 15, 2007, 10:14 PM // 22:14

I know that's not true, because you gave no supporting evidence, and even if you did it doesn't matter, because numbers don't mean anything.

Both of you are wrong, the average damage per hit is...pineapple. Proving that I'm right is left as an exercise to the reader (since you're so smart).

This is a good pineapple. You should read it.

D Fault · Jul 16, 2007, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by yaxattax

I made one observation throughout this thread.
Ensign, your posts command belief of others, only through the means of a dismissive manner and providing numbers without any true basis. Where others challenged, you asked them to back up what they said. It must be said however that simply providing numbers (some of which were clearly wrong) on its own form a basis for well, nothing. Meaning that you failed to back up your findings.
Purely for the sake of substantiating what I say, I'll tell you now that your figure of 35.55 average damage per hit was well .... very wrong. Since you're quite the mathematician (or present yourself as such), you can go figure out why ^^

You seemed to have missed one critical observation...the post date of this thread.

hotman · Jul 26, 2007, 09:30 PM // 21:30

No, running a [bold]PvP Warrior without 16 in his weapon attribute is akin to running an Air Spiker without 16 in Air Magic - the only 'sacrifice' is when you're not dealing max damage because you wanted to be cute. Real Warriors pump that weapon to 16 and never look back.[/bold]

Peace,
-CxE[/QUOTE]

would that be why every high level PvP Warrior uses 14 right?

the extra health (75 points of it) can an usually will save you from an early grave if you get spiked.

in high level PvP, mostly in GvG health is far more important then doing 5-10 more damage for a warrior.

-Lan

hotman · Jul 26, 2007, 09:32 PM // 21:32

No, running a [bold]PvP Warrior without 16 in his weapon attribute is akin to running an Air Spiker without 16 in Air Magic - the only 'sacrifice' is when you're not dealing max damage because you wanted to be cute. Real Warriors pump that weapon to 16 and never look back.[/bold]

Peace,
-CxE[/QUOTE]

would that be why every high level PvP Warrior uses 14 right?

the extra health (75 points of it) can an usually will save you from an early grave if you get spiked.

in high level PvP, mostly in GvG health is far more important then doing 5-10 more damage for a warrior.

-Lan

MisterB · Jul 26, 2007, 11:03 PM // 23:03

The quote you are replying to is 23 months old. Since this is an online game, many of the rules have changed, including nearly all the axe skills in the first post.
The key skills in this discussion, Cleave, Dismember, and Eviscerate, are radically different now than they were then.

Also, the metagame does change over the course of two years.

Snow Bunny · Jul 26, 2007, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Lol. Ensign is much more qualified on this subject than 99% of you, so I wouldn't respond with "14 Axe in High lvl pvp."

You ever ran a Frenzy Axe in a serious GvG? I'm not talking about your little rank 2567 guild, I mean a rank 300+ guild.

Run Axe at 14 and tell your teammates you did. "Brace Yourself!" for the criticism. You gotta man up on this and take faith in that monk.

Back on subject though, I think I looked at the two the other day and saw that currently, they deal the same damage. Except...that if Evis criticals, it's a spank. If cleave does, it's not nearly as good.

TheOneMephisto · Jul 27, 2007, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Lol. Ensign is much more qualified on this subject than 99% of you, so I wouldn't respond with "14 Axe in High lvl pvp."

You ever ran a Frenzy Axe in a serious GvG? I'm not talking about your little rank 2567 guild, I mean a rank 300+ guild.

Run Axe at 14 and tell your teammates you did. "Brace Yourself!" for the criticism. You gotta man up on this and take faith in that monk.

Back on subject though, I think I looked at the two the other day and saw that currently, they deal the same damage. Except...that if Evis criticals, it's a spank. If cleave does, it's not nearly as good.

Running 14 in weapon mastery is perfectly acceptable after the nerf to armor swaps and in the context of generally increasing max health. Max health on characters has been increasing in general over time (monks used to run with around 500-550 health, now it's almost never under 600). Nowadays, plenty of high-level warriors run with 14 mastery, especially on hammers. 15-16 is okay, but most people will tell you to run 14.

EDIT: Maybe I should explain why you don't run sups on warriors anymore rather than just stating it. When you get to VoD, possibly with a little DP, and you march up to the flagstand with NPCs, you're going to get your warriors killed over and over if they don't have enough health. All the things about VoD just combine to do that. The damage increase + health loss, the NPC damage, the constant overextending to attempt to take out NPCs, just everything. Combine this with an overall power creep and stronger damage options than before, and the loss of armor swaps, and things get ugly. Basically, if you're overextending to kill archers or something, you're at such a risk of dieing very quickly to the most minimal of concentrated fire that you want every bit of health that you can get.

Yukito Kunisaki · Aug 17, 2007, 06:06 AM // 06:06

I run W/N, if I wanted health, I'd get Demonic Flesh

lol...

I haven't been in pvp in any form in a while but are warriors JUST NOW becoming the REAL focus fire in any scenario?

I'm sure they didn't get any AL nerfs or defensive nerfs and Warriors should still be the hardest class to kill in the game if they're wearing armor and their own buffs [ Sentry Inscription owns me ]

110 al vs. phys. 90 vs. elemental, good stuff

but with SOO much defensive layers up, I still am a firm believer of 16 weapon mastery

Can someone from a very highly ranked guild explain to me why they'd ever run anything less?

[note, I want to hear from killing warriors, not pansy flag runners or utility wars... I want to see a warrior out for blood tell me that lessening their weapon mastery actually helps them do their job...]

zling · Aug 17, 2007, 07:41 AM // 07:41

ever since the introduction of nightfall what do u guys preffer as the axe spike?
evis->executioner's->something else(furious, penetrating, etc) or
executioner's->decapitate->(weapon switch)wild blow(or power attack or whatever energy attack u choose)