Curse

Rey Lentless · Aug 24, 2005, 01:58 PM // 13:58

That's pretty simple. You can run frenzy while using eviscerate, with battlerage you can't. Battlerage is good because it eliminates the need for sprint, and allows you to always be moving at full speed. It's hard to measure in a calculation how valuable that it. Battlerage benefits from a higher strength attribute more than most builds, since the duration is very important and you're using the armor penetration more often.

Eviscerate is ultimately better if you can produce the conditions you need to make it better. Removing the need to have a speed buff (snares that the enemy can't remove, or knockdown chains) allows you to use frenzy and spike very heavily. Best case scenario is you being able to chain all your attacks while under frenzy, without having to move at all. If you can do that often, then use eviscerate. If you can't, then you might get more out of battlerage.

Battlerage is a more reliable, less powerful skill. It allows you to use a warrior without building around it since it's dps isn't as reliant on outside help.

An equation isn't going to help you figure out which skill's going to do more for you here.

Dzan · Aug 24, 2005, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

Ensign, what is your take on a group witih multiple warriors? It seems as though having more than one axe warrior isn't really necessary, especially since you should be spiking with deep wound, which will prevent earlier uses of eviscerate. Also, with the recent abuse of Victory is Mine in altar maps, and the subsequent dragging along of Balanced Stance, are swords an option these days?

I know you didn't ask me, but I believe you are right. In my experience, having two hammer warriors in a monk's face isn't very more helpful than 1, and having two axe warriors also has diminishing returns. But having 1 axe warrior and 1 hammer warrior makes each other MORE effective.

Saerden · Aug 24, 2005, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

An equation isn't going to help you figure out which skill's going to do more for you here.

And schools should teach about the flying spaghetti monster ASAP! He created the world, after all!

Formulas are just tools that happen to approximate reality good enough to be useful, and wether they are indeed the LAWS of NATURE that some physicists claim that to be, noone can tell. (If you can tell, go back to preaching your "Sience Religion" based on "believe"). In the case of a game, one actually can be pretty sure how thinks work after asking the devs / reverse engineering the code.
And i have to add that giving more then 2 decimals is never a sign of seriosity in things that deal with reality in most cases (pure math is different, but totally useless anyway

). I doubt that Enisgn is too full of himself to realize this, and in the case of this thread, the fake precission actually seemed more like an ironic stab at cleave-lovers ...

numbers are however, better than guesswork based on emotional stuff or anecdotical evidence ("i totally pwned the others in tombs using only henches. Skill XXX rules!")

On a different note:
I dont like the fact that more and more warrior elites seem to be completely useless no matter what... oh well.

ICURADik · Aug 25, 2005, 03:24 AM // 03:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

I know you didn't ask me, but I believe you are right. In my experience, having two hammer warriors in a monk's face isn't very more helpful than 1, and having two axe warriors also has diminishing returns. But having 1 axe warrior and 1 hammer warrior makes each other MORE effective.

/agree
/bump

nohooiam · Aug 25, 2005, 03:34 AM // 03:34

wow... this is probably the most informative gw thread ive ever read. much props to ensign. *i hope his numbers are correct though.

Calibretto_9 · Aug 25, 2005, 04:18 AM // 04:18

Unfortunately, it seems that the warrior class isn't the only one sliding into the "cookie cutter" phase. As time moves on and more and more people have time to experiment with (And discuss) the different skills, there eventually begins to blossom the most effective builds for each class. Now, maybe it's just me, but as a competitor I always like being as effective as possible (Even if that currently means sacrificing originality, for, well, pwnage). Eviscerate is by far the most effective tool on an axe warrior.

I miss my first days in Guild Wars when all kinds of strategies were flying through my head, but we're coming to the point where there are the best builds for each class, and that will remain until new skills are thrown into the mix. I'm just hoping the devs don't decide to tinker with the current skills to mix things up.

Savio · Aug 25, 2005, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Cailbretto, you're the one sliding into "cookie cutter" phase. Different builds sprout up all the time. Spikers, suicides, spirit spammers (all s's?) - builds come and go. With the exception of NR, most builds aren't so overpowered that nothing else can beat them. And NR is losing its power in 2 days anyhow.

As for individual builds, there will always be calls for different things. Warriors CAN do more than just spike damage. How about knockdown warriors? Interrupters? Different group builds can call for different types of warriors.

Saerden, what are you getting at, really? Your post just goes nowhere.

Rey, Eviscerate allows you to do more than 10 more points of damage a second - a good tradeoff for having to switch between Frenzy and Sprint. You could toss in an Axe Rake if necessary, but since you're spiking them with the chain of skills, it's unlikely that they'll be running. If they're already running before you reach them, Sprint , Axe Rake, then Frenzy and unload.

Phades · Aug 25, 2005, 04:47 AM // 04:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Saerden, what are you getting at, really? Your post just goes nowhere.

It was a rebuttle at the attempt to disprove why numbers are invalid. The original statement was silly, because he was using how he felt through his experiences which were the byproduct of numbers.

Ensign · Aug 25, 2005, 04:52 AM // 04:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Unfortunatly whenever rage is refreshed it wipes out the adrenalin pool. In order to figure out the effect that has on adrenalin over time, you would have to calculate a arenalin pool that empties at the set time variable dictated by the strenght attribute. Long story short, the dps goes down even more, even though you are getting slightly more mileage out of strength armor penetration.

Pretty much. The skill is terrible when you ignore all of the drawbacks so I don't feel a need to create a more complicated model to show just how much worse it is. Battle Rage is bad, don't use it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Actually, im getting rather depressed by this thread as more and more warrior skills are ending up to be worse than i thought they were. It also makes it seem like there is only one way to build a warrior (per weapon type) and there is alot of shared ground due to the nautre of adrenalin boosts and stances.

Well there are so few skills per profession to begin with. But yeah, skills are imbalanced enough that once you tack on the particular needs of a given build you have convergent evolution towards a few very similar characters.

Right now I'm aware of only two competitive ways to run an organized team, PvP Warrior:

Eviscerate, Executioner's Strike, Frenzy, Sprint, Ressig, 3 skills
Devastating Hammer, Hammer Bash, Crushing Blow, Frenzy, Sprint, Ressing, 2 skills

There are certainly other ways to build an organized team Warrior, but I haven't seen a build that isn't just a bad version of one of the above. There's still some room to get creative, certainly, but things are tight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

Ensign, what is your take on a group witih multiple warriors?

No more than two on the same target, body blocking starts to become a serious problem. You can use two axes for spiking on a single target, but after that you want to use hammers for off targets, or just start morphing into a hammer spike build. Multiple hammers on the same target is generally dumb.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

It seems as though having more than one axe warrior isn't really necessary, especially since you should be spiking with deep wound, which will prevent earlier uses of eviscerate.

Hammer spikes give Deep Wound too, from Crushing Blow. Really you just have to suck down the non-stacking of Deep Wound and move on. Coordinate the spike, use two Eviscerates at once (it's still worth it), and get the kill. Might not be an optimal use of resources but it's better than anything else available.

One Hammer and one Axe on a target usually doesn't make a lot of sense - either you want the fast spike of an Axe to catch their Monks offguard, or you want the slower, disruptive spike of a Hammer to knocklock and guarantee kills. You could potentially mix and match but I haven't played around with that much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

Also, with the recent abuse of Victory is Mine in altar maps, and the subsequent dragging along of Balanced Stance, are swords an option these days?

Well, what's the worry, Deep Wound getting pulled off by Martyr/Mends? The Deep Wound from an Axe spike isn't even supposed to stick for a second, you're supposed to Evicerate / Executioner's / dead. .888- second duration under Frenzy. Balanced Stance would put a higher premium upon Axes than Hammers, but that doesn't give me a good reason to start using swords.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avaran

I am rather suprised Battle Rage has a lower DPS than Eviscerate in a skill+2 adren + nonadrenattack skill combo. Due to not knowing the exact nature of how Adrenaline works (read your adren-post, then ate a bag of chips) I didn't do the calculations but can you post it here?

It's because you lose an attack speed buff. Adrenaline gain can't make up for the fact that you're losing the 50% damage buff from Frenzy, and with it, the 50% faster adrenaline charging.

As for the chains themselves, you just do the calculations for Eviscerate / Executioner's / Disrupting, and multiply that by the Frenzied attack speed (9/8 seconds), then for Battle Rage you find the optimal skill use chain and multiply by that attack speed (3/4 seconds).

Optimal (max damage) Battle Rage chain was two normal attacks, two Penetrating Attacks, a Disrupting Chop and an Executioner's Strike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saerden

On a different note:
I dont like the fact that more and more warrior elites seem to be completely useless no matter what... oh well.

Don't look at some of the other classes then. Mesmers, for example, have exactly one playable Elite as far as I can tell.

Peace,
-CxE

Calibretto_9 · Aug 25, 2005, 05:00 AM // 05:00

Hmm, I'm not sure quite how to respond to that Savio, but I'll try to set irritation aside to clarify what I meant. If you're hammer warrior, there are proven ways to play the most effective hammer warrior. If you're an axe warrior, and not running eviscerate, you're a tool. If you're an elemental, you're running earth or getting owned by spirits. If you're a necro, you're a BiPer/Putrid. Get the picture? Of course I realize there are a few minor variations here or there, but if you'd look a little deeper, you'd find at the heart of each class there's a set of skills that never change. The closest you come is minor variations like a hammer warrior's choice between backbreaker/devastating hammer.

And I'd also respond that within the time frame Guild Wars has been out, a claim that new builds are sprouting "all the time" is relatively obnoxious and and asinine, at least considering my perception of "all the time." I'm not saying there are 4 builds - Play them or lose! I'm saying slowly but surely, if you choose a warrior you'll end up being one of the popular axe/hammer warriors. If you're an ele (And currently want to be effective IMO), you'll go earth. People are being forced into a way of gameplay in order to maintain competitive efficiency. Don't believe me? Look at all the 3 monks, 1 necromancer teams. Coincendence, or sign that ideas are being used up? Exactly how far do you think 450 skills are going to take you? Especially considering many just plain suck.
Savio, we obviously have a difference of opinions. But you claim that NR is the only "all powerful" build. I seem to remember enchantment heavy teams the only way to roll before it was around. If you ran heavy enchantments, you weren't threatened by suicide, spike, or any other form of strategy around. Anywho, we dont' agree, but again, this wasn't a personal attack so much as a reinforcement and clarification of my stated opinion.

Ensign · Aug 25, 2005, 05:09 AM // 05:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calibretto_9

If you're an ele (And currently want to be effective IMO), you'll go earth.

Earth is a pretty weak offensive line outside of Obsidian Flame, though the defenses offered by the line, particularly the Wards, are excellent. I think that if you're an Ele, it's pretty clear that right now the best element is Fire, of the Zealot's variety. Smiting blows away just about everything the offensive Elementalist skills have to offer.

Fortunately, there's nothing saying that you can't run the Best Element and Earth defenses on the same character.

Peace,
-CxE

Calibretto_9 · Aug 25, 2005, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Oh, I wholeheartedly agree with you, and actually find myself carrying certain terminologies from a different thread into this one (My apologies). I had recently started a thread regarding the effectiveness of the pure elemental class, not what they can do with the dangerous monk secondary. I should have mentioned that I meant pure elementalists. =) Seems like some of this might change with the next balances tho.

Phades · Aug 25, 2005, 05:20 AM // 05:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Well there are so few skills per profession to begin with. But yeah, skills are imbalanced enough that once you tack on the particular needs of a given build you have convergent evolution towards a few very similar characters.

Right now I'm aware of only two competitive ways to run an organized team, PvP Warrior:

Eviscerate, Executioner's Strike, Frenzy, Sprint, Ressig, 3 skills
Devastating Hammer, Hammer Bash, Crushing Blow, Frenzy, Sprint, Ressing, 2 skills

There are certainly other ways to build an organized team Warrior, but I haven't seen a build that isn't just a bad version of one of the above. There's still some room to get creative, certainly, but things are tight.

Well there is also for great justice, warrior cunning, and fear me, with a situational wild blow. Any of these can easily fill out the remaining slots and still add to the melee aspect of the build. Beyond that, there seems like there is nothing else that is effective for the slots available or could be done by another character with a greater effect.

This leads to the feeling of only one way to build a warrior and contributes to how warriros are countered.

Savio · Aug 25, 2005, 05:25 AM // 05:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

It was a rebuttle at the attempt to disprove why numbers are invalid. The original statement was silly, because he was using how he felt through his experiences which were the byproduct of numbers.

Hmmm...I get confused after the second negative...maybe that's why I couldn't think of it myself

Cali, I probably shouldn't have said all the time. I'll go with you saying that most people do end up doing the same builds. But, some people are Johnnys and go creative. Sometimes an original build will mess things up. I'm a Johnny, and I mainly play Arenas anyway, so I'm probably seeing this whole thing from a different perspective. But anyhow, this is a thread about Eviscerate/Cleave, so I'll leave it at that and let the big boys figure it out.

Calibretto_9 · Aug 25, 2005, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Most ways warriors are countered are countered by said warrior's teammates. A good warrior on your team is too valuable to allow him to be hindered, therefore it is completely worthwhile for other teammates to bring various skills to assist him where he lacks. My favorite warrior build is a war/nec axe warrior (And yes, eviscerate is my holy elite), because plague touch basically nullifies conditions against me. Therefore my teammates merely need some form of hex removal, and I'm free to go about my business.

Therefore, we may actually be entering a time when there ARE only a few ways to build a warrior. Please take into account this includes the majority, and does not include certain radical builds like "Fear Me" Warrior teams, or anything like that.

(And Savio, I agree, I'm dropping out of this thread as well. Ensign, my apologies for cluttering your thread with slightly off topic discussion.)

LeetSkeet · Aug 26, 2005, 03:00 PM // 15:00

did you take into account that it's possible for eviscerate to be blocked by guardian or some such skill? it takes much longer to recharge than a cleave would, and if you're trying to finish someone that is at about 30% hp, you need as much damage as quickly as possible.

Phades · Aug 26, 2005, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Averaging out the misses from repeate cleaves still tips the favor for eviserate. In the off chance that it was blocked evaded on the hit you needed to kill, it still would have been blocked and evaded, but you would have done less damage up to that point using cleave.

entropy · Sep 11, 2005, 05:55 AM // 05:55

well how bout swift chop anyone?

deep wound and dmg
then wild blow

lhurgrokoyv · Sep 12, 2005, 10:03 PM // 22:03

well for all those cleave fans out there, (altho i prefer the deep wound on evis) i used to use this combo for assasinating the guild lord in gvg:
w/n putting up continous dark fury (also cleave axer and buffs his health with demonic flesh and endure pain, will also receive boost from w/mo's vital blessing)
w/r using cleave and penetrating and dismember and fgj (for great justice)
w/mo with vital blessing (axe cleaver with charge!, to the limit fgj)

this combo basically allows the warriors to put up an almost non stop chain of cleaves and penetrating attacks while still getting the deep wound on the target, this is because cleave charges almost instantly and once you use your cleave, penetrating charges.
so you can do normal attack, cleave, penetrating, cleave, penetrating, etc for a duration of 15 seconds. pretty decent dmg output, with grenths balance it'll take out the guild lord in about 13 seconds if properly played
the problem was it was almost impossible to time grenths correctly to max dmg so i scrapped the build since it only worked about 70% of the time, but i'd like to see someone make a good cleave build out of it so im hopin for comments

Rossaroni · Sep 13, 2005, 01:33 AM // 01:33

[I'm skipping over pages 2 and 3 because I just want to make this point, so I apologize if it was made on those pages.]

The reason I think that eviscerate is better than cleave can be seen if you look at this situation from the perspective of a healer. The way healers operate is by healing people when they need it, ie. when their health is either dropping rapidly, or is just low. Monks get their energy from their 4 pips of regeneration (typically speaking, I'm not a fan of the boon template in PvP, and why would a healer be running enchantments?). What this means is that, because of their energy regen, they have a certain ability to heal over time, whether thru chunks (Orison, Other, etc.), enchantments (Seed, Hands), or HoT's (Breeze). I'm going to ignore the second type for now and just lump the first and third types together.

The reason eviscerate is better than cleave is because of the spikes, as Ensign has repeatedly said. With cleave, you won't be doing as much damage in a small timeframe (2-3 hits) as you would with eviscerate in the same timeframe, so that means the monk has that much more time to heal someone under an axe warrior running cleave (opposed to a warrior with eviscerate). Put simply, eviscerate uses its huge spikes to kill the target before the monk can even react with a heal. This is better not only from the pure spiking perspective, but because if you're in a battle that has raged on for a while, chances are the enemy's monks are going to run low on energy sooner or later. Adrenaline is always in constant supply unless you can't hit a target, so in that sense, adrenaline-based damage dealers will have a slight advantage over energy-dependent monks. What this means is that with eviscerate's spike, you have a better chance of catching a monk low or out of energy, and then you can finish off your target quickly without leaving room for healing. With cleave, you may do more damage over time, but that kind of damage is easier to manage for monk healers than it is for them to manage spike damage. Thus the popularity of the air ele spike build. This type of view applies to HoT's and chunk heals, and shows why eviscerate is especially effective against HoT's. (In those 10+ seconds breeze takes to heal, you might get a spike just big enough to outdamage the healing, whereas your numbers with cleave will be more consistent, but you won't get the spike that you need to put your target at 0.)

Now as for heals that work from a per-hit basis like healing seed and healing hands. Let's say you have a 16 healing monk vs. a 16 healing axe warrior. We've seen already that in terms of raw damage over time, cleave works a bit better, but not really a noticable amount. Cleave has in its sequence of attacks less regular hits and more attack skills. Seed and hands heal for +32 for each hit. So, what that means is that unless you do more than 32 damage with your attack, you're not gonna get anywhere. This is sort of a toss-up, really. With cleave, you'll be getting to use it more often, so you'll have more hits that overtake that +32 heal mark, whereas with eviscerate, you'll have to swing more to get your skills charged up, so you'll have less attacks getting over the 32 mark, thus healing your target in between the spikes. But, the deal breaker is deep wound. Unless I'm gravely mistaken, deep wound cuts the effectiveness of healing by 20%. This means that your 32-damage mark just dropped to 25.6, which means that you'll most likely outdamage cleave because you'll have dropped the heal per hit amount by 6.4. Over time, that 6.4 will really add up.

It's not really fair in terms of a strict by-the-numbers comparison to throw in this healing variable, but we're looking at these two skills from a by-the-numbers perspective to enhance our perspective of these two skills IN GAME, so in the wider perspective of the PvP game, this point is very relevant, and essentially drives home why eviscerate is better than cleave in most, if not all, situations.