Curse

wolfy3455 · Aug 22, 2005, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElderAtronach

Correct me if I'm wrong but deep wound doesn't stack. If there are multiple axe warriors (hypothetical) focus hitting a single target in an 8v8 situation, wouldn't the extra deep wound effects be wasted? You yourself recommend deep wound be put on the next-to-last hit on the target, so I would think that the extra bit of DPS from Cleave chains would make it a quicker finish.

On the other hand, would tasking the warriors to each go after a separate target and destroy them with evisc be more effective?

The thing is that extra DPS overall is very small compared to what you lose in spikes.The deep wounds won't stack but combined with another axe warrior spiking, eviscerate has a much greater chance of taking down the target.

Sarus · Aug 22, 2005, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Quote:

Correct me if I'm wrong but deep wound doesn't stack. If there are multiple axe warriors (hypothetical) focus hitting a single target in an 8v8 situation, wouldn't the extra deep wound effects be wasted?

In a perfect world yes, the deep wounds would be wasted. In the real world deep wounds get removed so having 3 guys constantly applying them is probably the better way to go. If those deep wounds are getting removed it's also costing their monks 5 energy a shot

ElderAtronach · Aug 22, 2005, 03:11 AM // 03:11

Very informative.

Just out of curiosity, what did Cleave do before it was nerfed?

Aug 22, 2005, 03:15 AM // 03:15

the same thing iirc, just it used to cost like 2 adrenaline.

Mandy Memory · Aug 22, 2005, 04:09 AM // 04:09

anyone wanna calc in the deep wound against a warrior with 480 health?
i think this would put evicerate on top because that comes out to a....actually i dont know

how exactly do deep wounds work?

Zelnox · Aug 22, 2005, 04:20 AM // 04:20

Hehe, poor Cleave* then.

Could you please do an analysis for swords too? ^_^

Aug 22, 2005, 04:56 AM // 04:56

DW is -20% of max hp applied to the target's current health. So a character at 500 max hp loses 100 health to both max hp and it lowers their current hp by the same also.

Mandy Memory · Aug 22, 2005, 04:59 AM // 04:59

okay more specifically what happens when it wears off....does the health get remultiplied or what....for a little while i noticed that the health went the other way and the damage got multiplied again(twas quite devistating when i noticed i killed someone by using sever then gash....then switching targets....this was in pve tho...)

LoneDust · Aug 22, 2005, 05:06 AM // 05:06

when deepo wound wears off, the target regains the 20% health.

Ensign · Aug 22, 2005, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElderAtronach

Just out of curiosity, what did Cleave do before it was nerfed?

It was a 2 Adrenaline attack that added 17 damage per use at level 16. That proved to be a scary amount of damage, so it was nerfed to 4A. That of course was weak, so the damage got buffed up to what it is now.

Also, Eviscerate recieved a slight buff just before retail, from 34 max to 42 max, I believe.

Peace,
-CxE

Jake · Aug 22, 2005, 05:49 AM // 05:49

Good article, I've always sorta had an intuition that low cost spammable adrenaline skills weren't good due to the fact that it interferes with your other skills. Never really went indepth with it though. Cleave needs a buff!

Even if cleave had a decent dps lead there'd still be the lack of saving a skill slot for deepwound factor holding it back. It's just all around not even remotely close to eviscerate. Spike factor is always important and that alone is basically enough to warrant evis over cleave even if you have 3+ warriors.

A good potential article to me would be whether or not it's beneficial enough to bother going with a swords warrior to combo with an eviscerate spiker or just to stick with 2 axers. Only problem is I don't know what elite to use to go with galrath/FT. I guess hundred blades would suffice, just swap out the 3 skill combo from axes with those 3 sword skills and see how the damage matches up.

Hopefully Anet starts reworking skills... I think warriors are on the road to becoming very one-dimensional soon...

Makkert · Aug 22, 2005, 07:02 AM // 07:02

And the high quality information of Ensign/iQ just keeps coming...
I can only imagine the tedious testing it took to come up with these numbers.
I take my hat of for you.
thank you for this information.

~ Makk.

dog13000 · Aug 22, 2005, 07:07 AM // 07:07

way too much time on your hands

Rey Lentless · Aug 22, 2005, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Good thread, but I'd like to see a couple more situations.

A cleave string with 4 attacks (maintaining the deep wound), and the eviscerate string with 3. Also like to see a 5 adrenal string (adding disrupting), and then the eviscerate string with 4.

I think when you're dealing with cleave, it has to be an additional attack you stick in the chain with adrenal buffers. You keep the attacks you have, and instead of eviscerate replacing dismember, you have cleave just being added in. That's how I personally use cleave builds.

Genos · Aug 22, 2005, 07:48 AM // 07:48

Whoa very nice data here Ensign.. as to waht cleave is for, heres a little theroy - i currently dont have Evis, but i have grabbed me self cleave, and use it as my only true "attack" skill in the skill bar - i use a Zealots fire + Fear Me/Watch Yourself/Cyclone axe for the rest of damage.. nwo because of this, Cleave is much better - i can reguraly spam it, with good effect... however thats PvE, so who knows what Cleave is for in PvP.. In any case, nice post - Kudos to you for the number crunching!

Louis Ste Colombe · Aug 22, 2005, 08:33 AM // 08:33

Very interesting data.

There is one assumption that, IMO, needs to be written in big bold italic whatever number, it's 10 in Strenght.

It would be interesting to see what result we would get with say 0 in Strenght, or with 12/13, and if that changes really anything.

I play mostly PvE, a warrior who take either Cleave or Evis... depending on ... well, overall feeling and what I got to do in the map. I am fully aware that PvE may not be the most interesting part of the game for you guys...

Still, I feel entitled to give my opinion.

If I go down to 0 in strenght, I go for Eviscerate and Executioner.

If I got 10 or more, and my job is to hold/kill mobs then my skill bar will be cyclone axe, penetrating, cleave... If I fight groups one by one, chance are cyclone axe will fills up penetrating and cleave right away, so I'd go; cyclone, penetrating, cleave, cyclone, penetrating, cleave, etc... With Strenght bonus applying to all attacks. With a normal size group (3/4 baddies), I can't get Evis or Executioner filled right away. In Ensign very interesting analysis, the missing part might be cyclone axe when it comes to adrenaline boost. At least for PvE. (for PvP... not sure you want to cyclone that much). With cyclone and in a very large mob environement, maybe eviscerate would be better, since the very large mob would provide the adrenaline.

If my job is to kill one specific target, who got some chances to be alone (like.... a priest in thirsty river to kill in 20 secs), I'd go for frenzy/ berserker stance, executioner, eviscerate, fill the adrenaline and spike

But, in PvE, it's not the most frequent situation.

Louis,

Jak o · Aug 22, 2005, 10:13 AM // 10:13

I would say the main reason people use Cleave over Eviscerate is simple that Cleave is easier to unlock!!!

I have never heard of anyone in a pvp guild using Cleave that also had Eviscerate unlocked, but because there are hours of difference in unlocking Eviscerate compared to Cleave, it still get use from time to time (less efter faction was implemented though).

Aug 22, 2005, 10:20 AM // 10:20

Well, we just finished a long run in Team Arenas with me using a build to buff Ensign running an Axe warrior. There were some sickening 2 and 3 hit kills all night from Eviscerate+Executioner spikes.

Asplode · Aug 22, 2005, 10:30 AM // 10:30

That's great, but at the same time you gotta take into consideration that cleave, other than having raw DPS, doesn't consolidate competitve damage with the utility of a deepwound chain. If you want to have good dps with cleave and at the same time you want to drop an axe rake in, you have to use three skill slots rather than the two you'd have with eviscerate. Why axe rake? How does it influence DPS? Well, until the cripple is removed, you won't lose DPS to chasing, and it's a cripple that requires no outside help.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that numbers are great, but in actual play, there's MUCH more going on than meets the eye. People run, people use protection spells, have different armor levels in different situations, you can lose adrenaline in one of many ways, etc.

Ensign · Aug 22, 2005, 11:04 AM // 11:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

I'd like to see a couple more situations.

A cleave string with 4 attacks (maintaining the deep wound), and the eviscerate string with 3. Also like to see a 5 adrenal string (adding disrupting), and then the eviscerate string with 4.

Evisc + Penetrating + Exec
49.33823586

Cleave + Penetrating + Dismember + Exec
48.47575536

Evisc + Penetrating + Exec + Disrupting
48.21319771

Cleave + Penetrating + Dismember + Exec + Disrupting
47.61232552

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

I think when you're dealing with cleave, it has to be an additional attack you stick in the chain with adrenal buffers. You keep the attacks you have, and instead of eviscerate replacing dismember, you have cleave just being added in. That's how I personally use cleave builds.

Well Cleave + Dismember is worse in every way than just running Eviscerate, lower damage, worse on your adrenal skills, more skill slots - it's just suboptimal. The only reason you would even think about using Cleave is because you don't want the Deep Wound, and don't want to damage spike, and don't want to use other adrenal skills. Ah, I really can't tapdance around it, Cleave sucks, don't use it. =/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genos

i use a Zealots fire + Fear Me/Watch Yourself/Cyclone axe for the rest of damage.. nwo because of this, Cleave is much better - i can reguraly spam it, with good effect...

You're using Cleave with Fear Me and Watch Yourself? Eviscerate is so much better than Cleave in that situation it isn't even funny. Your adrenaline is smoother, you'll deal more damage, you'll get free Deep Wounds on top of all of that, and you'll spike harder. I don't see how Cleave is better given what you've told me. In fact the only reason I'd even consider running Cleave in that build is exactly what you mentioned - you have yet to acquire Eviscerate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis Ste Colombe

There is one assumption that, IMO, needs to be written in big bold italic whatever number, it's 10 in Strenght.

It would be interesting to see what result we would get with say 0 in Strenght, or with 12/13, and if that changes really anything.

It really doesn't. The Cleave sequences gain roughly 8-10 damage per minute over Eviscerate sequences if you pump Strength up into the 11-13 range - The Eviscerate sequences gain 8-10 damage per minute over Cleave sequences if you drop down into the 5-7 range. I'm not sure of the break points because I haven't tested all the rounding, but the net result is not particularly significant.

In fact the insignificance of the differences is perhaps the most striking thing about these results - as far as damage over time goes there isn't a meaningful difference between the various adrenal axe attacks over long timeframes, so just take the ones with the most perks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis Ste Colombe

If I fight groups one by one, chance are cyclone axe will fills up penetrating and cleave right away, so I'd go; cyclone, penetrating, cleave, cyclone, penetrating, cleave, etc... With Strenght bonus applying to all attacks. With a normal size group (3/4 baddies), I can't get Evis or Executioner filled right away.

Well, I'm not about to run all of those permutations again with Cyclone Axe being used every fourth attack without any attack speed boost.

I will put this out there, though - Cyclone Axe does not help Cleave charge faster at all. No matter how many enemies you're fighting, you're going to get to use Cleave once every four attacks, so Cyclone Axe doesn't help Cleave in the slightest. What it does do is help you use other skills while using Cleave - Cyclone Axe hitting 3 targets per use will let you use Cleave at its normal frequency, and Penetrating Blow at an increased frequency as well. On the other hand, Cyclone Axe does help Eviscerate immensely, allowing it to be used more frequently, and thus making the skill proportionally better. From some cursory numbers it would appear that Eviscerate outperforms Cleave under Cyclone Axe, in terms of sustainable damage, as long as the number of targets hit by Cyclone Axe is greater than or equal to two.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis Ste Colombe

the missing part might be cyclone axe when it comes to adrenaline boost.

Well it doesn't appear that way, but keep trying. The Cleave fanatics need to find some straw to grasp at, because accepting that they're using an inferior skill certainly isn't an option.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis Ste Colombe

But, in PvE, it's not the most frequent situation.

Right, in PvE you're much more interested in sustainability that spiking because healing in PvE tends to be terrible and you just want to save resources. Which, of course, is what this analysis focused upon and the numbers are sitting out there for public consumption.

Peace,
-CxE