Curse

Narcism · Jan 11, 2008, 03:00 PM // 15:00

It's been a while since I posted, I was going through my server and found a damage calculator that I made for Mostly Harmless, (it helps to put down the Vampiric vs Sundering debate) PS. Vampiric wins. I slapped a design on it and just hope someone could get some use out of it because I don't play Guild Wars anymore...

It's accurate in all the tests I've done.. here ya go:

Guild Wars Damage Calculator

Equation courtesy of SonOfRah

Vaal 84 · Jan 11, 2008, 03:07 PM // 15:07

very nice work indeed.

Vaal

zwei2stein · Jan 11, 2008, 03:09 PM // 15:09

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Master_of_Damage ?

Lagg · Jan 11, 2008, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Hats off to you, sir.

Olim Chill · Jan 11, 2008, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Excellent. Very nice job.

Narcism · Jan 11, 2008, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Master_of_Damage ?

Accuracy vs Broad Idea.

The calculator also doesn't require you to buy lots of items and mods to know that vampiric works best.

@All, thanks guy.

zwei2stein · Jan 11, 2008, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narcism

Accuracy vs Broad Idea.

The calculator also doesn't require you to buy lots of items and mods to know that vampiric works best.

@All, thanks guy.

True, but you cant be sure that formula you use is 100% right. Any ingame testing is kinda more reliable because it takes into account all hidden facts you have no idea about.

Narcism · Jan 11, 2008, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

True, but you cant be sure that formula you use is 100% right. Any ingame testing is kinda more reliable because it takes into account all hidden facts you have no idea about.

Re: Formula, absolutely right, since the formula was not supplied by ArenaNet, we don't know if it's 100% right, but you can bet your ass that a lot of testing was involved and that it's damn close.

You're more likely to get data that's askew from sampling then from this formula.

You're talking to a number-cruncher and a guy who studied game mechanics for a long time.

LifeInfusion · Jan 11, 2008, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Narcism, you can use PvP equipment + wild blow.

Narcism · Jan 11, 2008, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Narcism, you can use PvP equipment + wild blow.

To test for critical hits... yes? I don't understand the point you're trying to make. Can you add armor penetration? Can you vary the opponents armor? Do you know what the non-critical-hit damage is?

LifeInfusion · Jan 11, 2008, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Yes, to verify your application's crits... The damage ranges are pretty much constant except the crits and armor penetration triggers off of sundering and strength. So there's no doubt there.

You can vary the opponents' armor with the dummies. There are 60, 80, 100 armor dummies and 15,30,55 armor dummies in Nightfall.

SaucE · Jan 11, 2008, 03:44 PM // 15:44

I think its broken, I make the armor 1 or 0 and it takes less damage.

Narcism · Jan 11, 2008, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaucE

I think its broken, I make the armor 1 or 0 and it takes less damage.

I fiddled around with it, and it still works like it's supposed to. I'm guessing the sample output is misleading.

The front page shows SAMPLE OUTPUT so you know what to expect when you get to the site.
If you typed in 0 armor, and hit submit when first arriving to the site, you'll do 0 damage because the min damage and max damage are set to 0 by default.

PS, the calculator is assuming you meet the req. or else you do Starter Weapon damage.

netniwk · Jan 11, 2008, 04:01 PM // 16:01

now its official,vamp>sundering

.

Narcism · Jan 11, 2008, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by netniwk

now its official,vamp>sundering

.

That was the easy part, getting people to change the way they think.. not so easy.

Tyla · Jan 11, 2008, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by netniwk

now its official,vamp>sundering

.

it always has been

gj to the OP for your effort!

Narcism · Jan 11, 2008, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

it always has been

gj to the OP for your effort!

Considering the price of Sundering mods, there are people who refuse to believe it on no basis whatsoever.

Longasc · Jan 14, 2008, 07:56 AM // 07:56

The data was already known, most people just cannot interpret data given to them.

Your calculator does one thing that totally skews the data in favor of the vampiric mod, which is pretty poor to make a point:

You AVERAGE the data of the 20% chance of a 20% Armor Penetration critical hit.

This is your data for a Scythe at 14 Scythe Mastery and a 20%/20% sundering mod:

Without:
Normal Damage (Without Prefix)
46.8
Average Damage
13.3 Minimum Damage
60.6 Maximum Damage
85.8 Critical Hit Damage
37 Average Damage (excluding critical hits)
46.8 Average Damage (including critical hits)

With Sundering Damage Prefix (20%)
49
Average Damage with 20% Sundering
Damage (20% Sundering)
13.9 Minimum Damage
63.4 Maximum Damage
89.8 Critical Hit Damage <- you averaged with the 20% chance here!
38.7 Average Damage (excluding critical hits)
49 Average Damage (including critical hits)

The "true" Critical Hit on Sundering is 105. You averaged that over the chance to trigger (20% chance), so it is only (105-85.8)/5 = 3,84 more.

85.8+3.84= 89,64. -> an artificial "average" of critical hits that does not ever appear ingame.
This is your result. Which is the "average" of sundering hits, but does not represent a true sundering crit.

The point of sundering supporters is that a lucky 20% trigger can kill, whereas +3/+5 constant damage on each hit does not.

I leave it to people to make up their mind which mod they want, I just want to point out that a flawed calculator that gives misleading data is not really a good argument to support one or the other point in this debate.

Besides that, I like your calculator.

Narcism · Jan 14, 2008, 01:28 PM // 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

The data was already known, most people just cannot interpret data given to them.

Your calculator does one thing that totally skews the data in favor of the vampiric mod, which is pretty poor to make a point:

You AVERAGE the data of the 20% chance of a 20% Armor Penetration critical hit.

This is your data for a Scythe at 14 Scythe Mastery and a 20%/20% sundering mod:

Without:
Normal Damage (Without Prefix)
46.8
Average Damage
13.3 Minimum Damage
60.6 Maximum Damage
85.8 Critical Hit Damage
37 Average Damage (excluding critical hits)
46.8 Average Damage (including critical hits)

With Sundering Damage Prefix (20%)
49
Average Damage with 20% Sundering
Damage (20% Sundering)
13.9 Minimum Damage
63.4 Maximum Damage
89.8 Critical Hit Damage <- you averaged with the 20% chance here!
38.7 Average Damage (excluding critical hits)
49 Average Damage (including critical hits)

The "true" Critical Hit on Sundering is 105. You averaged that over the chance to trigger (20% chance), so it is only (105-85.8)/5 = 3,84 more.

Underneat the "averaged" percentage. I displayed the 100% Sundering damage, which is, as you mentionned, 105

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

85.8+3.84= 89,64. -> an artificial "average" of critical hits that does not ever appear ingame.
This is your result. Which is the "average" of sundering hits, but does not represent a true sundering crit.

The point of sundering supporters is that a lucky 20% trigger can kill, whereas +3/+5 constant damage on each hit does not.

20% trigger can kill, but lack of the other 80% can be missing that 5 or 10 to make the kill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

I leave it to people to make up their mind which mod they want, I just want to point out that a flawed calculator that gives misleading data is not really a good argument to support one or the other point in this debate.

As pointed out earlier, the data is being presented. The data is presented as an average numbers with the big numbers (that you like to think of) located at the bottom.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

Besides that, I like your calculator.

And I like you.

Longasc · Jan 14, 2008, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narcism

Underneat the "averaged" percentage. I displayed the 100% Sundering damage, which is, as you mentionned, 105

I am sorry. I should have got that 100% means sundering triggers all the time.

Still I have to argue. The unlikely streak of Sundering triggering every time does not get an average displayed big and bold. This number is higher than +3/+5 vampiric even at high armor. Of course it is not realistic. Still, you do not display the average 100% sundering result at all.

That Vampiric always wins in DPS in comparison is not new to the debate. Not many deny this fact. Still there are many people who use sundering axes in PvP, in the hope to get in a lucky sundering hit before the guy starts kiting, blocking or gets away somehow. Your calculator adds valid numbers to the debate, but I must say it is not ending it. I personally tend to agree that Vampiric is superior.

This said, regarding the "numbers cruncher" thing you mentioned:
I am still trying to figure out how to calculate when 10% Furious is worth it. This is really complicated. But with the buff to "For Great Justice" and 20 seconds of double adrenaline, I wonder if a Dragon Slash build would still benefit from using a furious mod sword (with a 10% chance to give double adrenaline) in the remaining 25 seconds till recharge. When would it pay off? How many and what adrenaline skills would you need to have more benefit from it than from Sundering or Vampiric.