Curse

Epinephrine · Dec 29, 2005, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Well, it is an opinion, but pet-heavy teams present a lot of bodies in close proximity, making disease spread rapidly across them. Given that the most efficient anti-condition skill won't pull it the pets are vulnerable to conditions in general, requiring the use of (relatively) pricy skills to heal them - if you have 4 pets converging on a guy who diseases them with tainted flesh it is pointless to try to pull the disease really - it'll be back on them with their next attack against him, or even from being next to the other diseased pets; even if it were a one time thing, I doubt it is worth 4 spells to cure 4 diseases off the pets. Groups of pets are thus vulnerable to anything which spreads a condition across them quickly - a barbed trap, poison spamming, disease, epidemic... and it is costly to try to patch them up. So, while 4 pets on a guy adds up to some pretty big damage, if you face a condition heavy team you'll find that the pets just aren't efficient enough to heal; they'll all be poisoned, bleeding, diseased and so on, and it just isn't cost effective to try to remove it all. A single pet, sure - but a condition oriented build relies generally on the great efficiency of damage/energy it can put out, and the pets just aren't efficient to heal.

xenoranger · Dec 30, 2005, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Makes sense.

I'm just thinking in terms of a team with few pets.

Honestly, I haven't seen many Beast Master builds that work well for much of anything. It seems that pets are more for show than being a viable resource. It also seems that present more liability b/c you need to heal them or suffer an 8 sec penalty.

Epinephrine · Dec 30, 2005, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Well, I like it when people underestimate the pet charging them. So yeah, don't worry about pets. It's just a giant chicken, so what if it can launch an interrupt every 2 seconds.

xenoranger · Dec 30, 2005, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Giant Chicken... I have a lynx on my Mo/R. =p

xenoranger · Dec 31, 2005, 02:59 PM // 14:59

New Question...
Do pets level slower (like your character) when you have Hench or other party member?

Epinephrine · Jan 03, 2006, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Yes, pets level slower in a party. It took approximately twice as many kills to level my pet with Alesia tagging along. My experience is unchanged whether my pet is around, and likewise other players are not affected by the presence of my pet. I have partied with another pet user (Jenosavel) to level pets together, and noticed the approximate doubling of the needed kills to level, but it was approximate - no effect seemed to come from her pet being there.

It would seem that while the humans share the experience, the pet has a share of experience based on the number of humans present, but granted separately.

Vermilion Okeanos · Jan 12, 2006, 07:13 AM // 07:13

from the chart, each level the damage of aggressive/dire, unevolved, playful/hearty's damage keep pulling apart in every level.

Do you think it is possible that each level that increase in damage is saved, and depending on how you use your pet that the new level damager % change would varie one pet from another?

Example: a different lv16 pet would have 14.8% after a certain way of training to accumulate an unknown number, instead of listed in the chart 14.4%.

as if that the player had done 1 damage total until the pet is lv16, the pet out damage the user far from normal and turn into an aggressive version, would this aggressive pet have more damage % per level than a player done 1000 damage until the his/her pet is lv16?

I am leaning more to the "No, to the above", but I don't think it is ever a good idea to denounce any idea, unless proven beyound the shadow of doubt.

Jenosavel · Jan 12, 2006, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Since the way the numbers pull appart is quite consistent with a % modifier (such as damage +/- 15% for the Dire/Hearty evolutions), I would lean towards no to the above question. Also, such a tiny difference as .4% would be next to impossible to test for. I'm not exactly a math wiz -Epinephrine supplied those talents- but I can say that when you're dealing with such a range of values those tiny variations can be attributed to the margin of error. A .4% difference, at most, comes out to be around a .1 difference in damage. Considering nothing else but the fact that the game engine rounds all values, that .1 difference is already questionable.

This isn't to say that the game absolutely does not have such a system in place. If it does, however, I believe it would be of no practical significance.

Epinephrine · Jan 12, 2006, 06:02 PM // 18:02

To follow up with what Jenosavel has said; while the data looks like % damage differences, it might not be; the varying critical hit rate for example, combined with a flat bonus (like the +2 damage spoken of by some) might account for it; certainly it is an interesting question, and the method proposed by Pan Sola to test non-critical damage using Balanced Stance seems like an important next step; hopefully the guild will have time soon to assist in testing that aspect and it may put a nail in the coffin for one model or the other.

Carinae · Jan 13, 2006, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Wow this is an awesome thread, thanks for all the hard work you put into it.

I have a simple question: I am currently N/R. Do you retain your pet if you change secondaries? I know the pet won't be available, but I won't lose it permanantly will I?

Epinephrine · Jan 13, 2006, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Thanks - didn't realise that wasn't covered - yes, your pet is saved for you, when you change classes back it'll be waiting for you. I added that bit to the first page, since it is basic info on pets.

Vermilion Okeanos · Jan 13, 2006, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Hmm, I was able to train a warthog to lv20 8 minutes ago (before making this post). It remained as aggressive (woot! if you need ss, I can post later if people wish to see, or maybe you want to personally see it yourself, then pm me here)

Now... What kind of dmg chart should I use? Is this aggressive warthog as strong as the dire at lv20? (as there are no seperate chart for aggressive and dire at lv20) While aggressive also do not have the -HP as the dire? Doesn't this automatically making the aggressive warthog superior than dire?

There are more things to find out it seems.

Epinephrine · Jan 15, 2006, 02:48 PM // 14:48

That's fascinating - Try resetting your pet's name, see if it changes (/petname)? I don't think I've ever heard of a pet being level 20 and aggressive. I know that the changes can be delayed, but I didn't think they could be that delayed.

Vermilion Okeanos · Jan 15, 2006, 10:48 PM // 22:48

I have rename and delete name many times to check if it were true. It turn out to be true, perhaps a freak of nature, or pure luck =P

When I noticed it was lv18 and still didn't change into dire, that is when I started to make sure (maybe) to continue training it the same way.

Jenosavel · Jan 16, 2006, 12:35 AM // 00:35

I'd be interested in what a health test shows your pet's hp to be. It should be a quick way to see if its stats are behaving as a Dire or Aggressive, and it would be safe to assume its attack would behave similarly. An Aggressive of level 20 should be looking at 450 health, whereas a level 20 Dire would have 420.

If it turns out to be behaving as an Aggressive (which would probably make the most sense) then you'll have to decide if that's what you want from it, since the Aggressive's attack does appear to have a smaller percentage boost over an unevolved's damage than the Dire's does. You'd have a health/attack that lands somewhere between a Dire and an Elder, but whose exact attack values we've never been able to test before (at that level anyway).

Wanderer of KT · Jan 19, 2006, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Awesome guide! Very well done! Thanks for all the hard work guys!

semantic · Jan 24, 2006, 09:36 AM // 09:36

It seems that they're either tweaking evolution or there have always been more variations along the path. After training up a couple of Hearty pets, I decided to play around with letting a new pet do all the work for me. A few minutes ago the following happened:

I was surprised when no evo happened at 11, so I checked here for info (was looking for Valerius' thread and found this one - both are great). It seemed a little strange that evolution was out of the question if it didn't happen at 11. He was still generic at level 12, having been fed on Wavebreakers for several levels. Assuming he would stay generic forever, I became a little less careful with him. I took him up to the Shiverpeaks for a few mino steaks, then to Nebo Terrace where we killed a handful of Mergoyles (and he died for the first time from the Mind Wracks). Then we went to Augury where he leveled to 13 on a Rockshot.

I didn't notice the change right away, but there it is. Now, I realize the Mind Wrack damage must tipped the scales, but such a small amount of damage over the space of 2 encounters doesn't seem like it should have been enough to offset the amount of damage my pet had dished out over the course of 13 levels. And trust me, I wasn't doing any more than a few weak staff attacks now and then. Everything else was Predator's/Disrupting/Brutal. And with CoP running, he wasn't taking any damage other than Deep Freeze. In any case, not nearly enough to compare with the amount he was dealing.

Maybe one of the factors is the amount of damage taken by the owner. As in, a pet has a greater chance of becoming Dire if its owner is consistently getting pummeled for large amounts. The one constant in my pet's training (while trying to minimize his damage taken / maximize his output, etc.) was the fact that the damage I received was minimal. It would make sense as a mechanic as well. If you are doing the tanking, the pet should trade health for damage, and vice versa if the roles are reversed. Perhaps someone has already mentioned that and I missed it.

nova-exarch · Feb 03, 2006, 10:01 AM // 10:01

1st: Excellent job of following up on earlier work and clarifying/debunking so many rumors via all the scientific methodology.

I just spent about 2-3 hours or so reading through every post on first Valerius' thread and then this one. I have to admit though I skipped through a lot of the math, charts and skills/build info as I trust you methodology and I'll worry about builds later. (got to decide on a pet first...)

A few things I wanted to respond to from both threads but I wanted to post here in the newer thread since they're mostly directed at J+E...

---

Did you two (Jen' and Epi') ever do any testing to prove/disprove the experiment seen here?

I never saw where Shift11 was able to pinpoint the differing amounts of healing needed. He did say he used healing to figure out the amount of life needed to heal the damage from the AE but he never lists the actual number to see if it lines it up with the guestimated %'s.

I guess I'm just wondering if there are any plans to do further AL/Armor Type testing. While it would be difficult, it could show another variation or two between the pets and/or evolutions.

---

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenosavel

I hope they give our pets some variety now, even if it would invalidate this guide. It would just make my day if they gave bears blunt damage. It's probably just one of my idiosyncrasies, but a bear dealing slashing is kind of irritating. I mean, why would a bear deal slashing? They kill by blunt trauma to the head, being able to fracture the skull of even a big cat such as a tiger or a lion. They certainly don't go for blood.

The warthog could stay slashing though. Those little critters really gore up their opponents with their tusks.

A gore is a piercing attack

I agree 100% on the damage types... The variety of strengths and weaknesses was what made playing a mage in EQ so fun (until the end where all but earth died so fast it rarely mattered what the type was).

In regards to the bear... Have you ever seen a bear's claws? They're easily as wicked as a Tiger's (maybe no so sharp due to the bears habits).

It's just that the bears massive size and power means their big freakin paws slam harder (in most cases, hard enough to send anything else flying) and end up doing more damage than the huge gashes their claws cause. Against other large heavily build opponents though they can inflict some serious gouges! >yikes<

In my perfect world...

Teddies: Primarily Blunt with a random slash here and there
Tweeties: Piercing with a slash here and there (beak and feet)
Puppies: Piercing with maybe a very rare slash (Dog types don't paw swipe)
Kitties: Slashing with a piercing here and there (pretty much opposite of dogs)
Piggies: Piercing and maybe a disease or earth based damage
Spiders: Poison (balance it out however they have to)
Scaleys: Piercing with a slash here and there (tail whip)

For extra flavor give the desert types (lizards, add some lions) fire damage and the icy (wolves and add a cold climate lizard, it's a FANTASY world after all) types cold damage. To balance tweeties, make them attack faster.

All the damage types I've mentioned already exist so it would only be a few coding tweaks here and there.

For some defensive flavor:

Teddies: 2x HP and .5 AL
(very hearty, but big and take full force of every blow)
Tweeties: .5 HP and 2x AL (hit less because they’re quick)
(have you ever tried to catch a bird)
Puppies: 1.25 HP and .75 AL
Kitties: .75HP and 1.25 AL
Piggies: The baseline, fairly hardy and fairly quick
(have you ever tried to catch and hold onto a pig)
Spiders: .5 HP and 2x AL (hard shell)
(once you crack the hard shell they’re not so resilient)
Scaleys: Can see either… 1.25 HP -- .75 AL or 75HP -- 1.25 AL
(really depends on the type of lizard)

Then pet choice would be soooo much more than just cosmetic.

Not too likely for all (or even any) of this to happen but one can hope… right?

---

And lastly...

Quote:

Originally Posted by BurningPants

In about 10 years, you might look back and say "Why would I ever waste my time like that"

But good work anyway.

The critical thinkers of the world will >NEVER< look back upon things we pondered and think "what a waste of time". It would be more like "Why didn't I think of testing this or that!"

benblohoweak · Feb 05, 2006, 09:31 PM // 21:31

semantic, i had the exact same situation as you(except i had a bear). I recommend scrapping that pet if you want dire, and getting call of preotection and symbiotic bond, while you charge into battle, thus makign the enemies target yourself. Hopefully this will get you a dire. But the damage taken is a major factor in deciding it's evolution.

Jenosavel · Feb 05, 2006, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by nova-exarch

Did you two (Jen' and Epi') ever do any testing to prove/disprove the experiment seen here?

Yep. We tested the AL of pets via using Symbiotic Bond to determine the exact amount of damage that the pet was taking (whatever gets filtered through to you x 2). Against an elementalist type enemy (such as a Hydra outside of Augury Rock) you can easily determine what its base damage is by what damage it does against yourself (known armor level). Knowing the enemy's base damage and the exact number of the final damage dealt to the pet, you can easily determine their armor level.

Quote:

In regards to the bear... Have you ever seen a bear's claws? They're easily as wicked as a Tiger's (maybe no so sharp due to the bears habits).

It's just that the bears massive size and power means their big freakin paws slam harder (in most cases, hard enough to send anything else flying) and end up doing more damage than the huge gashes their claws cause. Against other large heavily build opponents though they can inflict some serious gouges! >yikes<

Oh, I know what a bear's claws are like. But the thing is, they don't use their claws as a weapon.

In the few recorded cases of a large (brown) bear fighting a large cat (tiger), the tiger's main trouble was litterally a fractured skull. I've also seen recordings of a small bear (not sure what kind, but some type of asian bear) fighting a lioness, and while the bear was bleeding profusely, the lioness didn't have a single scratch. Again, it was blunt trauma that she had to be afraid of. I know it probably makes me seem cruel, but it's more my insatiable curiousity that made me stumble on these things than anything else. I don't go out looking for animal fights, just in case you're starting to get that impresion.

Quote:

A gore is a piercing attack

In my opinion, a thrusting attack is should do piercing damage and a sweeping attack should do slashing damage. Goring involves wilding swinging of the boar's head, tearing up flesh in the process. No thrusting means I just can't see calling it a piercing attack. It's no more piercing than a cat's claws; less, in fact.

A difference of opinion, I guess.

Glad you enjoyed the guide though! And thanks for the wonderful thoughts! Knowing someone took time to consider the stuff makes it all the more worthwhile.

EDIT: Typos will be the death of me yet.