Curse

Goonter · May 09, 2005, 06:09 PM // 18:09

So some folks have a problem with the lvl 20 cap. I personally like it, but I do also think that looking forward to advancing your character is big part of wanting to log in and keep playing.

My wish list solution is this: go ahead and keep the lvl 20 cap. You acquir exp pts all the same, and then after you "lvl" you get skill points to dump into your favorate skill, making that specific skill better, to specilize it.

Of course I think that each skill should have its own cap, and the increase would come with in small margins so no serious grining is nessecary.

I think this would help people cusomize there characters (always good) while at the same time adding playablity. This should be implement in giving everyone (even casual players) the ablility to get the edge they desire to take there character to the next lvl, without unbalancing the game.

any votes for this idea?

Epinephrine · May 09, 2005, 07:00 PM // 19:00

No. That's the same thing as increasing the level cap. It's another "I want more grind!" whine. You can already customise your character fine, you don't need more points to do that. Just reassign the points you have.

Quote:

I think this would help people cusomize there characters (always good) while at the same time adding playablity. This should be implement in giving everyone (even casual players) the ablility to get the edge they desire to take there character to the next lvl, without unbalancing the game.

In what way does this make one whit of sense. NO MATTER WHAT THE CAP IS THERE WILL BE PEOPLE WHO WANT IT HIGHER. The "customising" isn't limited by levels but by how you choose to divide your points. "Taking there(sic) character to the next lvl(sic)" is just a way of wanting more grind.

Jackell · May 09, 2005, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Oh yeah. Give away all the skill points you want. I'm all for skill point levels going through the roof. I don't mind that.

Just as long as you don't increase the attribute points, I'm happy. I really would not want everyone to have 12's and higher in every attribute. That gets rid of a lot of customizing, and a lot of strategy in picking your skills.

Gh0sT · May 09, 2005, 07:24 PM // 19:24

IF you were talking about attibute points (which i think you mean)...

I'd say thats not good, the limit was set on purpose so that everyone can step in and play the game without having to grind to level 40 or so to participate in PvP fights....

The way you discribe it is like just gaining another level without the new lvl number and without extra health...

I think the attribute cap of 200 is great as it requires you to make a chooice where to put what point... because "every player" does that a bit different, "each player" is unique in his way...

By letting you fill out all ur attibutes you would, 1. make it like the rest of the MMORPG's, grinding for levels and 2. make every person the same as they all maxed out every attribute...

Goonter · May 09, 2005, 07:46 PM // 19:46

If Ive come off as whining it wasnt my intention. I was just making a suggestion in the suggestions forum.

I love the game the way it is now, i like the lvl 20 cap. I consider myself a casual player too. And I hate grinding too. I really hate it. So I dont mean to add grind with the idea, just specaliztion and customablity for everybody casual and hardcore players alike.

So the idea is I can choose to increase the damage or duration or decrease the casting or cooldown time of a specific skill. And that will stack with whatever your selected attrubites are.
No more attrubite points are givin or needed. I agree, that would be to much to fast.

For example:

I have a ranger lvl 20 with all the skills I want, great armor, great weapons.

Now, after reaching lvl 20, when I lvl up I can marginall increase one skill that I like to use for my ranger build.
I select to upgrade the the skill powershot.

Description: This arrow shot deals 8+ extra damage.
Cost: 10
Skill Type: Attack Skill .
Cooldown Time: 5 second(s)
Casting Time: 0 second(s)

I can use my next lvl to make powershot look like this.

Description: This arrow shot deals 9+ extra damage.
Cost: 10
Skill Type: Attack Skill .
Cooldown Time: 5 second(s)
Casting Time: 0 second(s)

And in time my skill will cap at this:

Description: This arrow shot deals 10+ extra damage.
Cost: 8
Skill Type: Attack Skill .
Cooldown Time: 4 second(s)
Casting Time: 0 second(s)

Now my ranger isnt uber powerful, just marginally better at the skill - powershot, because it is what I invested in.
I could grind and do this to all my ranger skills if I want (it would take a long time and be sort of pointless) or I can just increase the skills I like to use. As a casual gamer this would take some amount of time, but for a purpose.

Maybe! this idea could be used in conjuntion with rare drops. Or maybe it could be just a rare drop in general.

Epinephrine · May 09, 2005, 07:54 PM // 19:54

But that's just the point. You are in favour of a cap (you've said so yourself)

There is a cap. Setting it arbitrarily higher won't change that. Customising skills/spells will make worse balance issues, and it still comes back to the fact that it means more work to hit competitive levels. And the fact that you want a cap on it means that you just don't like the current one and want an arbitrary one. Or that you want a game where you can through a ton of play and logged hours become unstoppable, in which case this is the wrong game. There are plenty of games out there for the people who want the levelling/customising forever, contnual power building genre, but this isn't the game. Yes it's new and fun, but it isn't designed for that market, it has set itself out to be "player skill, not time invested" and any suggestion along the lines of yours is in direct opposition to theat stated principle.

I enjoy the levelling up in this game, it's a nice pace and it has a very forseeable end; you get time to play with your build and learn it a bit, but then it's over and you are essentially having fun with your finished character and tweaking it a bit here and there. That's what I like, and while I respect your likes and what you want out of a game, they are in opposition to mine, and I have selected a game based on its design. There are games out there for the grind-loving power gamers, and they aren't GW.

If what you want is more customization, there is! Move attributes. Take a bigger rune (+1, +2 with -50 health or +3 with -100). Use headgear that boosts the attribute (+1). Use a weapon with chances (20%) to boost the attribute. Those specialise the character but are balanced - the improvement comes with a penalty. Yes, there is still a cap of 16 for most attributes, but believe me, that's specialised!

If you mean perhaps that there should be runes to boost a certain skill instead, that might also be feasible and within balance, if it carried the same trade offs - after all, it takes the spot of another rune, and while you might be able to hit a 19 in an attribute (scary!) you are short 200 health as a result. I am all for abalanced additions that allow players flexibility, but just gaining more power after the cap for grinding isn't a solution in my mind.

Quote:

Now my ranger isnt uber powerful, just marginally better at the skill - powershot, because it is what I invested in.

First, that's not "marginally", that's hugely. You've got a 20% reduction in cost and cycle time and a 25% damage boost.

Quote:

I could grind and do this to all my ranger skills if I want (it would take a long time and be sort of pointless) or I can just increase the skills I like to use. As a casual gamer this would take some amount of time, but for a purpose.

This sentence is the scary one. Yes, you would want to do that? The hardcore gamers all would. They'd do it for every skill. Suddenly you have a game with a big edge for those with huge amounts of time to spend. You have characters being sold on Ebay ("already customised all skills to maximum, only 300 dollars!") and so on. Bots would be built to level them and train them. It's grind and it's bad grind. Sorry.

Goonter · May 09, 2005, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Your very passoinate about this huh, epinephine?

Well, Im not as much. I was just thinking...

This game is both pve and pvp. I enjoy the pve in this game more than the pvp. The way its set up now is very balanced for pvp and it would be a shame to take away from that. Although I dont think my idea added any high advantage for players, if it really would unbalance the game, then it is a bad idea; balance is better. imo
But in pve there is the desire for more, even for a causal gamer as myself. I dont know what else to add to pve to keep me coming after Ive done it all. There are limited rare drops, no random dungouns, and after Ive built my favorate build, nothing to do left to do in pve. The pve replayablity is far more limited than the pvp aspect of this game. Purhaps that was the designers intention.

Dreamsmith · May 09, 2005, 08:32 PM // 20:32

There's just one rule to keep in mind regarding advancement beyond level 20: it can't be something that makes your character more powerful.

Right now, you do continue to gain skill points after you reach level 20, but since you can only use 8 skills at a time, this doesn't actually make your character more powerful, just more versatile.

Any other suggestion must be likewise something that, although it may improve your character in some way, it cannot be something that makes the character more powerful. Someone has to be able to level to up 20 and be equal in power to you, even though you've played 1000 hours more than that person. If that isn't preserved, you destroy the major selling point of this game, the biggest advantage it has over other RPGs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goonter

But in pve there is the desire for more, even for a causal gamer as myself.

Agreed, but there are ways to provide more without breaking the very core of the game. For example, add more explorable areas, more quests, etc. The biggest improvement in my character that always tickles me pink is when I get a new map point to be able to map-travel to. Again, this improves my character, but doesn't make him or her more powerful.

Any suggestion that actually makes your character more powerful past level 20 will never be considered by AN, it's antithetical to the design goals of this game.

Epinephrine · May 09, 2005, 08:34 PM // 20:34

I think that replayability comes from trying different combinations and so on. There are really good items out there; there are great runes and mods to get for your weapons (Zealous bowstrings, Runes of Vigor) and the like, so there are things worth some farming for, but it is true that you could run out of items to unlock faster in GW than in many other games. On the plus side, the intent is to have an expansion in 6-8 months, right? And yes, I guess I am passionate about it, it's a great game, and the first RPG I've enjoyed in a long time - I don't want to see it stray from it's stated goals to appease a vocal group who want it to, and I guess that means being vocal in support of level caps, lack of grind and so on

Goonter · May 09, 2005, 08:40 PM // 20:40

an expansion in 6-8 months? really?
If they are coming out that fast then that is the anwer to my pve woes.

are they going to keep pumping out GW expansions this fast often?

Dreamsmith · May 09, 2005, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goonter

are they going to keep pumping out GW expansions this fast often?

The stated intention is to produce a new expansion every six to nine months. New classes, new skills, new stuff to do. Don't worry, since they aren't charging a monthly fee, this is the only way they can keep making money. We should see lots of expansions...

Epinephrine · May 09, 2005, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Yes, and importantly

Quote:

Purchasing the newer chapters of Guild Wars will not make you strictly more powerful. You will have access to many more strategic options, due to the expanding nature of the skills, abilities, items and professions that you enjoy with each chapter. It would be similar to building a deck in Magic: The Gathering™: The more cards you own, the more different playing decks that you can choose from to use in the game. When you buy the chapters of Guild Wars, you will acquire a larger collection of skills and abilities from which to build your skill set, but you will not gain more power. So if you purchase a chapter and your friend does not, you will still be able to play competitively against and with one another.

It's a very nice design concept. As well, since the material only has to be designed at one power level really (level 20) you can be 4 expansions into it and your buddy working on the first, and you are still of comparable levels and power, so you can adventure together.