Curse

Reverend Loki · May 05, 2005, 09:30 PM // 21:30

I've always thought that the necromancer class was missing a skill. it would allow a necro to create a minion with a bit more permancy than he currently can, and the skill I'm thinking of would be a way to accomplish this that is not only unique, but also in keeping with the necromancer's "style", and doesn't unfairly balance the game.

Create an elite level skill - Harvest Corpse/Create Golem. Costs 25 mana, causes exhaustion. Basically, it starts as "Harvest Corpse", where you exploit a corpse to gain a limb/body part/whatever. After harvesting (3-5) corpses, the necro can Create a Golem - this creates a semi-unique minion, based upon the types and levels of the enemies used during the harvesting phase, that would persist for 2-5 days (real-time, regardless if you are logged in or not), and would follow you into new missions as long as you have that skill equipped. You cannot begin harvesting new corpses whil maintaining an existing golem. There may be the ability to prematurely dismiss/destroy your golem (though perhaps it should attack you if you do so?). I dare say that a golem crafted in such a way (requiring that much effort and taking up an elite skill slot) could be more powerful than the henchmen available at that level, and not unbalance the classes.

I don't know if harvested parts should appear as items in your inventory or not. If so, I can imagine a market cropping up for the exchange of beast parts. Note that these will be "specially prepared" parts, so as to preserve a portion of the life force and making it suitable for golem creation, and thus not interchangeable with the various bits and organs sometimes left behind normally. Alternatively, they are just "stored" as pip marks on the skill button, in appearance not unlike a warrior and his adrenaline skills. It would definitely create a community of recipe-sharing for what combinations will create what kinds of golems.

Thoughts? Comments?

Kalnaur · May 05, 2005, 10:02 PM // 22:02

I like it. Sick and twisted, it fits right in with what the Necromancer stands for.

Toast · May 06, 2005, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Only if you can harvest player corpses, otherwise you create the same dilemma that is currently hurting warlocks in WoW. Skills designed for PvE that really don't translate well into the pure-PvP environment.

Otherwise, I like it. I'd really enjoy having my own twisted version of a 20 War/Monk walking around with me

RoxorMcownage · May 06, 2005, 07:28 AM // 07:28

I on the contrary think its only good if they cant be used in PVP.

Necromancers are already annoying enough without adding a huge damage dealer(supposedly you want to be as good or better than hench) to the battle.

Not really balanced?

PVE would be cool though. Necromancers would finally be saught after.

Vangor · May 06, 2005, 07:36 AM // 07:36

Why not create a much more definable permanent creature, akin to how the Ranger's pet is activated just having charm animal on, but instead, this Golem can be attuned to the way you want to play having its own sort of style to play through harvesting various corpses for items, like giving you a Spirit, Flesh, or Bone Golem, each different, like Flesh maybe has a chance to disease foes hitting it and has alot of hit points, Bone Golems can cause bleeding and are more attack oriented, Spirit say has magical resistances and maybe has similar abilities to Soul Reaping getting health from the dead, even spells directly for Soul Reaping (one of the few primary only attributes lacking any sort of skills tied to it), say allowing for them to harvest health for the Necromancer from dead creatures, or that sort of thing. Could really bring them in a new direction.

That said, the Ranger pets need to be more different, not sure if they actually are, but I hear discussion on where to get pets just because people want a lizard instead of a bear or stalker, that is really all I know it.

Jackell · May 06, 2005, 07:40 AM // 07:40

I could see it working well in PvP.

Outside of the arena's, Necro's are annoying but not really a huge threat, and usually left for mop up duty. But a skill like this could really change around that theory.

"Wait, three people are dead already, WHERE'S THAT NECRO? GET HIM!"

Kill the Creep could be as much fun as Hunt the Monk.

Harlas Kije · May 06, 2005, 05:59 PM // 17:59

To balance it in PVP--there could be a type of bond between necro and golem--so if the golem dies--that necro is unable to use spells--or loses helth-or cannot move?? And if the necro dies before the golem does--the golem switches to the other team for a predetermined time. Or just goes crazy on everyone?

This would add more strategy--but like I said--the penalty would have to be watched carefully so it balances out--no need to add a necro skill that actually makes them less wanted in a group.

Kalnaur · May 06, 2005, 06:27 PM // 18:27

How about making this skill tied to Blood Magic? The cost of making and maintaining it costs a certain amount of health, similar to most blood magic spells. This means that while you have aq steamroller next to you, you yourself have been weakened. Not a ton, but just enough so that it makes a bit of difference, so that there are positives on all sides of owning a golem.

Witchfinder General · May 06, 2005, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Loki

I've always thought that the necromancer class was missing a skill. it would allow a necro to create a minion with a bit more permancy than he currently can, and the skill I'm thinking of would be a way to accomplish this that is not only unique, but also in keeping with the necromancer's "style", and doesn't unfairly balance the game.

Create an elite level skill - Harvest Corpse/Create Golem. Costs 25 mana, causes exhaustion. Basically, it starts as "Harvest Corpse", where you exploit a corpse to gain a limb/body part/whatever. After harvesting (3-5) corpses, the necro can Create a Golem - this creates a semi-unique minion, based upon the types and levels of the enemies used during the harvesting phase, that would persist for 2-5 days (real-time, regardless if you are logged in or not), and would follow you into new missions as long as you have that skill equipped. You cannot begin harvesting new corpses whil maintaining an existing golem. There may be the ability to prematurely dismiss/destroy your golem (though perhaps it should attack you if you do so?). I dare say that a golem crafted in such a way (requiring that much effort and taking up an elite skill slot) could be more powerful than the henchmen available at that level, and not unbalance the classes.

I don't know if harvested parts should appear as items in your inventory or not. If so, I can imagine a market cropping up for the exchange of beast parts. Note that these will be "specially prepared" parts, so as to preserve a portion of the life force and making it suitable for golem creation, and thus not interchangeable with the various bits and organs sometimes left behind normally. Alternatively, they are just "stored" as pip marks on the skill button, in appearance not unlike a warrior and his adrenaline skills. It would definitely create a community of recipe-sharing for what combinations will create what kinds of golems.

Thoughts? Comments?

Cool idea. You ever play retro mud? That is how necs work there. Wow I still miss text muds to this day...

A11Eur0 · May 06, 2005, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Why does a skill need to be used in PvP in order to be available in PvE? Why not reward the people who do skill quests and such with some really awesome new spells and abilities? Let's not give the PvP humpers everything, let them deal with what they need.

Quest_techie · May 06, 2005, 09:39 PM // 21:39

what about a wood golem? there are trees in all of the pvp arenas, or a stone golem, perhaps instead you could bring parts into pvp that had already been prepared

Reverend Loki · May 06, 2005, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Good feedback, nice to see it all. To try and reply to some of it:

Permenancy: I could see adding to the length it lasts, perhaps, but I don't think it should be truely permenant. A ranger's pet should have some advantages over a necro's golem, and vice versa. For instance, I don't think that a golem should be able to increase their level at all - it's still an undead creation, not a natural living creature, after all. Pets are living, and capable of learning, thus leveling up, whereas a golem is pretty much programmed at creation with everything it will ever know.

Drawbacks: I wouldn't be opposed to an additional penalty to the necro, but this sort of thing (along with the length of the minion's life) should be used by developers basically for balance purposes. I've already included what I think to be a decent penalty in the fact that it requires perhaps more preparation to pull off than any other skill, uses up an Elite Skill slot, and since, as written, it costs 25 mana per cast, and requires 4-6 casts to end up with a golem, that's talking an investment of 100-150 mana over time to get your creature up and going.

Different types of golems: I sort of like your idea of flesh/bone/spirit, but I think it either aready exists in the fact that a golem's nature is determined by it's components, or can be rolled into it. If you create a glem using parts from 4 spell casters and 1 brawlers, you get a golem that likes to use magical attacks and is a bit more resistant to magic than physical attacks. Maybe by including parts harvest from shelled creatures, you can add armor to it in lieu of more attack strength.

Strength: I'm thinking that this golem should be at least as useful as a henchman avalable at that level, if not as strong. While bone minions/horrors/fiends are all about attack, golems need not be - imagine a golem that's more about protecting it's master than anything else, casting heals and protective monk spells. Variety is one of this beast's strengths.

PVP: See also the last paragraph. I imagine a golem's appearance will vary based on component, but it's appearance won't necessarily give away it's nature. Therefore, what the other team passes off as just another minion/henchmen in order to rush the monk, may actually be pulling duty as the team's healer. Or it may end up lurking in the back lines casting it's mesmer spells, or... basically, the only way to tell what this thing an do is to observe it. No, it won't have as much impact as another player, but it may be enoug to turn the tide of battle. I'm not trying to create a juggernaut minion, just a useful one, that's worth the investment.

Assigned Attribute: I think it may be best tied to Death Magic, though a valid argument could be made for Blood Magic as well. I can also see the necro getting a slight bonus to mana gain from kills the golem had a hand in, as opposed to "ordinary" deaths on the battlefield. Also, how should rank of the atttribute effect the skill? Should it lengthen the lifetime of the golem? Increase the theoretical level of the golem (though this would still be limited by component used in creation)?

Death, Necro: Personally, upon the Necro's death, I think the golem should either go uncontrolled until the necro's revival, or perhaps stand guard over the body, attacking enemies that near the body. the latter is more for flavor than anything. See also notes on Golem Behaviour later.

Death, Golem: Here's one I don't know about. If the golem dies from anything besides "end of lifetime", should the necro be able to infuse it with life again? I'm thinking maybe, though it too would of course suffer a Death Penalty. I'm also of a mind that it shouldn't be able to be resurrected, or at perhaps only brought to life a certain number of times, or having it's resurrection halve it's remaining lifetime. here's one I really want feedback on.

Golem's nature: I think it should act like it hasa very rudimentary intelligence (think a la certain representations of Frankenstein's Monster), and fiercely loyal to it's father/mother/creator. As such, it will act to protect it's master first, and is more likely to heal it's master before it heals another teammate that may be hurt worse. Likely, if it's master comes under a certain level of attack, it might break off it's current offensive to attack it's maser's attacker. In other words, though useful to the team, it should e more useful to the necro.

Bonds: I can see there being a ond represented by in game mechanics between necro and golem. If the golem dies, perhaps the necro's max health drops for 30 seconds. Possible side benefit: If the master is a N/W, perhaps a golem's death fills the master's adrenaline skills. Eh, maybe not.

Some Summary: My goal is not just to create an uber-minion, or a new toy, but to introduce a new mechanic that can be used as an extremely versatile tool to influence gameplay in new and interesting ways.

Anyways, please continue discussion, I look forward to what else you might add.

Reverend Loki · May 06, 2005, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Wood or Stone Golem: I don't see why you couldn't create a wood golem parts harvested from Oakhearts, Reed Stalkers, and Aloe seeds, et al. I'm afraid I don't recall of corpses from the stone elemental family of enemies are exploitable though - maybe they should still be harvestable, I don't know. Right now, i don't think ice golem corpses should be harvestable (I mean, it's dead, it's, like, ice...), but that's just my opinion.

Bringing prepared parts into PvP - they way I wrote it up, a Golem could be brought into any mission, PvE or PvP, much like a ranger's Pet can be, by having the skill equipped after you have created the golem. If you want to bring the parts only and create one in the middle of thegame, go ahead.. there may be a potential strategy there, though I don;t see it right off. The main things tha differentiate it from the pets is in the limited life time (measured in hours or days independent on if you are playing or not), lack of ability to level and the greater range in available skills. Though the golem doesn't have the ability to learn, and thus level, like a pet, henchmen or player, it does come in with a selection of skills/abilities derived from it's components. I'm not saying it should have a full compliment of 8 skills, mind you, but a few, as is approriate.

A11Eur0 · May 06, 2005, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Perhaps a new class involving nature magic would be able to bring trees and rocks to life, or even sand in the deserts. Expansion? But this necro Frankenstein idea would work rather well, I think.

Legendary Mithrandir · May 11, 2005, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

Perhaps a new class involving nature magic would be able to bring trees and rocks to life, or even sand in the deserts. Expansion? But this necro Frankenstein idea would work rather well, I think.

cough* Druid cough*

Massassi · May 11, 2005, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Perhaps a Necromancer could, instead, use those almost useless collector quest items(like the gargoyle skulls, fetid carapaces and bear pelts) take them to a new NPC who would , for a fee, turn specific combinations of those items into another secondary weapon item (like grim cestas, sheilds and icons) that when weilded in conjunction with a skill creates a pet like Golem that has different attributes depending on the type of golem item you are weilding and the level of the skill( I would put it under death magic).

acquireing the skill would be hard as well as the combination of items and gold needed.

blythe · May 11, 2005, 09:44 PM // 21:44

I like the Harvesting multiple corpses to get a permanent minion idea...but I think Necros could use a Hex that slows down the targeted enemy, and doesn't cost too much mana, and doesn't half-kill the necro.

logonmas · May 11, 2005, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toast

Only if you can harvest player corpses, otherwise you create the same dilemma that is currently hurting warlocks in WoW. Skills designed for PvE that really don't translate well into the pure-PvP environment.

Otherwise, I like it. I'd really enjoy having my own twisted version of a 20 War/Monk walking around with me

They're fixing that and also it wouldn't hurt it too much in this game or in WoW. You can just go around stock up on body parts to build a mob and then take it pvp'ing. Just like you can go around and stock up on SS's before going PvP as a warlock (they're fixing it so SS's can be gotten from players too). They could just fix any down sides by making the golem res'able. I think it'd be hard to balance out though.

Soltis · May 11, 2005, 10:35 PM // 22:35

I like the original idea of a pseudo-customizable pet that's derived from what corpses its components are havested from. I can't think of another game that has anything quite like this(other than some text-based games), and it would add some major badass-ness to the necro class without compromising game balance.

I think the golem's kills should definitely give the necro a bigger benefit; either a small health bonus, or more than normal energy. Idea: maybe every kill the golem makes makes the currently recharging skills of the necro's "jump" 5-10% toward being fully recharged?

I don't like Massassi's idea at all, it's too limiting and generic. I suggest that those items should be used for -something-, but this is not it.

Idea: new hex that weakens enemies a slight bit, but when that enemy is killed, they are automatically harvested? It shouldn't be a big thing, not expensive or hurt the necro, but it would DEFINITELY make PvP interesting because if a player got that hex, their team would have a VERY vested interest in protecting that player till the hex wore off.... be kind of fun to have the necro be able to 'blackmail' an opposing team into healing one or another of their members to keep them from being harvested. I think the necro should not be able to thus hex more than one or two people at a time, but that the hex should have a good, long duration, at least a minute.

I think when the golem dies, the necro should get a health drain, but an energy boost. The health drain would definitely be 'worse' than the energy boost would be 'good,' but it would still make logical sense, from an ambience point of view.

I think you should be able to bring the golem back to life indefinitely, but that every time it died, one of its parts would "expire," so to resurrect the golem, the necro would have to hex and kill another player, whereupon the golem would automatically be restored.

I think the "golem skill" should be a one-or-two-fits-all thing so the necro doesn't have to fill their skill slots entirely with golem related skills just to maintain the thing. It might be good to have two skills: a harvest hex and a "create/restore golem" skill. The harvest hex could still be used even when the golem is already created, but would not "harvest" a part, just somehow weaken the player it's cast on... this way it can still be used, albeit in a lesser manner, at all times.

Idea: possible have the necro be able to keep one extra part in reserve, so they can, the first time their golem dies, restore it pretty quickly, but have to work harder to restore it future times?

ToxicMilk · May 11, 2005, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Necro's definately need something like the ideas above! Whether it be some kind of ghostly spirit or golem I think it will definatly be a welcome addition.

I disagree with it being an elite skill - it needs to be something you can get early on, similar to the rangers pet.

In fact couldnt we even extend the theme to Elementalists - allow them to summon elemental spirits - lightning wisps, stone elemental and the sort - something that could either act as a tank or energy ward...?

Any other ideas?