Curse

Ginko · Apr 06, 2005, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kha

How would this logically work? Wouldn't the more you put in at once mean the more you have to balance out? I am hoping that each expansion will offer at least two new professions. I think that is enough to keep people happy. I rather them focus on a few and get them right then try to please the masses with such a mixture of unoriginal ideas and end up making the game too unbalanced and boring.

That's what I just said! There should be more then one proffession added each exspansion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kha

No they don't. Stealth isn't in the game. It was planned to be, but they never actually implemented it. Then they just got rid of it, either deciding it was useless to try or they didn't think the ranger was the right profession to have.

Sorry if I confused you, what I meant by that was: If they added stealth, it would fit Ranger perfectly.

--Ginko

Taranis · Apr 07, 2005, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeoSaber

The Mammal Forms attribute could be linked to transformation skills like 'Wolf Form', 'Bear Form', 'Tiger Form', etc. And then when in one of those forms you could use skills like 'Maul' to cause effects similar to bleeding, 'Growl' which could boost attack strength, or 'Lunge' to knock down opponents.

You and me baby ain't nothing but mammals so let's do it like they do on the discovering-channel.......
Anyways I don't think a Metamorph would be a nice idea...I mean if all his skills were about morphing into some kind of animal this class would be a class you cant combine with anything else, can't really imagine a wolf or a bear using vampiric touch or casting healings...
The Martial Artist is a sweet idea tho, maybe some kind of engineer too, using some gun-like weapons, being able to construct traps like little turrets and even some mechanic pet?? Alchemist would be nice too, using onehanded weapons + self-made "granades" => Posion, Flashbang, Gasgranades etc....well not really granades, more like a bottle with different mixtures in it having the same effect like the granade-types I mentioned...

Xellos · Apr 07, 2005, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aria

I'm not sure what you mean with they "don't have a choice," Xellos.

In my mind, ANet has already broken the traditional mold of massive online games. Despite not conforming to what everyone else is doing, they've still gathered an incredible following.. and following this pattern, I can't see why adding unique GW professions without jumping entirely back into the skins of the old stereotypical "druid," "ninja/assassin," "shapeshifter" would necessarily spell out the end of ANet in an economic sense..

Sure, I love some of these ideas too, but one doesn't always have to conform to a past standard to be great, or, even more importantly, to be loved by the masses.

So, in the end, I do agree with you about how this is where faith comes in. Someone once said that the best indication of the future comes from the doings of the past, and well, ANet has a pretty impressive track record so far, yes?

That is completely not my point. It is irrelevant actually. The point of Spooky's concern, or what I thought his concern was, is that adding eventually takes its toll on balance. Just like Magic: The Gathering, or any card game, the original set and the first couple of expansions might have been decently balanced with minor kinks, but look at Magic now? Half the cards back then don't have a use anymore in the higher-up meta-game. Magic though, is limited by the cost of cards itself, Guild Wars isn't.

No matter how you do it, eventually "new job" type classes that add a completely new element to the game will run out, and therefore must be rehashed. At best, they add 1 character per game to milk it out, but even then, just 1 character can completely mess up the balance of the metagame as it is. Even now, with 6 classes, 30 possible cross classes, it is still not close to Starcraft balance. Spooky I believe suggested to make the balance at least stable before trying something new in those expansions. I simply said that Anet doesn't have a choice.

An expansion without a new class would not be popular with a majority of people, and this forces Anet to somehow miraculously balance out and add a new element into the game without upsetting the metagame. Add to the fact that these expansions most likely won't be beta tested as long, and you'll see that the whole stand-point of skill > time is crushed. In every near-balanced game, the elements have rarely changed. Starcraft was barely touched, only tweaked. Infantry has tweaked maybe five times in it's whole lifespan. Etc etc.

Arena Net has dug itself a hole in terms of market strategy, and only through hardwork, ingenius ideas, and a lot of luck will they ever make it far if they intend to keep the picture they wanted from the beginning. I see GW being just like magic, later on, skills that are already pretty crappy like penetrating shot or dodge probably won't even be touched since there are rehashed versions.

Of course, they can easily ditch by then.

Daemon · Apr 07, 2005, 03:01 AM // 03:01

My guess is the first change we will see (along the lines of what this thread is about) will be new skills, which is a given. I highly doubt in a new profession. Think of what it would do to the game. Each character we have right now is completely different from the next. As it's been mensioned about 4560793456 times already, there would be too much overlap. Anything that has been mensioned so far can be accomplished by the professions already available, some would need some new skills, others some new armor. The term 'warrior' for example encompasses a heck of a lot of 'professions' including your ninjas/martial artists/bards/and even some of the 'monk' classed from other games. So add some skills that fit with these types to the warrior, and *poof* you've created a new class. This isn't to say I wouldn't want to see a new profession offered....I just don't believe in it quite yet.

Before a new profession comes (and I really doubt it, considering we've already got the bases covered, and can work up to anything from there) I would assume we would get different races. In fact, based on what I've read, It's almost a sure thing (I think it says 'maybe' in that book you get with the pre-order). Even Spooky made a reference to it:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spooky

While I am by no means a designer, I have a feeling that future professions are going to serve the purpose of 'giving a face' to, and refining some of what existing character class combinations already do.

And I back that up 100%. It just makes sense to work with what we have already.

Weezer_Blue · Apr 07, 2005, 03:09 AM // 03:09

Did someone already mention the concept class for the Conservative Business man? Well... it was a funny joke thread at TGH.

portiadude · Apr 07, 2005, 03:54 AM // 03:54

A go for Assain/Ninja like profession. They have the abilty to have use stealth wich make the to a shadow or gives them a predator like shimmer. Then they sneak behind the enemy group and attack from there wich means that they mainly is used to take out the support group.
They have diffrent skillz like "Backstabber" wich give a lot of damage but if you miss you will lose hp and maybe get knocked down. Many of their skills is used to disable thier target so they can kick **** They can use unarmed combat wich means that thier gloces would give more than just AL.
I´ve invented many skills for this build and i don´t have time to show them.

Xellos · Apr 07, 2005, 03:57 AM // 03:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

Did someone already mention the concept class for the Conservative Business man? Well... it was a funny joke thread at TGH.

Sorry, but that class is overpowered.

AtomicMew · Apr 07, 2005, 04:34 AM // 04:34

I think the shifter class is the best, and most obvious idea. Just to flesh out the idea a little more: think of the DnD shifter class. The shifter is an inherently situational class. When the shifter morphs, he gains several permanent bonuses and weaknesses. For example, if he morphed into a fire elemental, he would gain a 50% fire damage reduction, but also gain a -50% water damage reduction. This type of permanent effect cannot be dispelled or removed until the shifter decides to morph back into human form. It is also something not currently existing in GW. And it seems like it would be relatively simple to balance.
Someone in this thread said something about the skill bar being too limited for this class to work effectively - if you had to mem up every skill that you could use in shifted form, this would be true. But again, in DnD, you would lose all your human form skills and gain different shifted form skills instead. I think this type of implementation would work nicely in GW. Although, of course not limited to - being able to take one or two skills from human to shifted form would be interesting.

Daemon · Apr 07, 2005, 08:11 AM // 08:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

I think the shifter class is the best, and most obvious idea. Just to flesh out the idea a little more: think of the DnD shifter class. The shifter is an inherently situational class. When the shifter morphs, he gains several permanent bonuses and weaknesses. For example, if he morphed into a fire elemental, he would gain a 50% fire damage reduction, but also gain a -50% water damage reduction. This type of permanent effect cannot be dispelled or removed until the shifter decides to morph back into human form. It is also something not currently existing in GW. And it seems like it would be relatively simple to balance.
Someone in this thread said something about the skill bar being too limited for this class to work effectively - if you had to mem up every skill that you could use in shifted form, this would be true. But again, in DnD, you would lose all your human form skills and gain different shifted form skills instead. I think this type of implementation would work nicely in GW. Although, of course not limited to - being able to take one or two skills from human to shifted form would be interesting.

If the case were, as you put it, to have your human skills change into the skills of whatever you shifted into...then that would be a little broken don't you think? Even if you could only shift into one thing, that's already 8 skills more than the other players. That doesn't sound fair to me.

On the other side of things, this shifter class doesn't seem to be the most unique and least overlapping. Again, however, I highly doubt it's implementation. Having just one other class would be very difficult to incorporate when you try to balance all the combos it will create with the other classes. What would a shifter do as a secondary? How would the secondary effect the shifter when it shifts? Things like these are possibilities, and would be fun, but they are probably at the bottom of the devs 'to do' list. This doesn't go to say that I'm not all for new professions...

butcherboy · Apr 07, 2005, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Craftsman/enchanter - some days I just like to build something....

D&D style Ninja class - no armor, makes his own weapons, stealth is his ally, and skilled in the art of hand to hand or weapons combat. Makes a good poison and traps, too.

Undead - death knight, wraith, and scout - or just allow undead character models as most of the classes are dupes of warrior, necro, and ranger.

Rogue/theif - backstabbing is cool but so is taking the monster's weapon before he can use it. Why fight what you can just sneak past?

Elemetalist - can morph into a fire/earth/air/water elemental based on what sign the elementalist chooses to beef up. A strong fire/earth elementalist can morph into a magma elemental which causes bash and fire damage, etc.

Undertaker - cleans up after PCs clean out.

Moore - of mid-eastern decent, a light armor warrior skilled in twin blades or long weapons (spears, halbred), horseback riding, and wind/earth arts. Special buffs are Sandstorm (blind enemy), Charm (enemy won't attack for x seconds), and Beserk (x% more damage, increased speed, but most hits critical). Passive skills are read/speak language and slow heal.

Time travel would be a bit hard to do on as despite being an instance based game, everyone is still in the same time frame, so to speak. A cool idea for a SP only game, but very hard to implement in a SP/MPORPG.

gangguard · Apr 07, 2005, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Stealth was planned to be rangers primary, but it got replaced with Expertise,
ok a review of my suggestions

Knight (riding a horse or a Wyvern, small dragon type)

Attributes
Chilvary{P}- Making hits have a percentage to interupt target adjacent foes because of ur might

Ride Control- spells like (wyvern) breath fire, trample,......

Lordship- Boost your men....And control their attacks by making them more skilled and accurate

Lance mastery/Jousting - Charging lance, Shield Pierce, Splinterd Lance....

Builder/Carpenter

Concentration{P}- decreases chance of being interupted because builder's spells take qutie a long time

Building- build towers, walls for archers to shoot behind or basically a tower would be extra defense

Metalwork- Build temporary armour and weapon boost or maybe make a Forge which automatically does that

Gunpowder mastery- *BANG*

Hunter/Slayer
(throws weapons)

Precision {P} increases accuracy and decreases enemy chance of blocking dodgin etc

Throwing mastery- throwing javelins and Axes

Slaying- Knowing enemies weaknesses and strike with speed and precision..
Example: Spot weakness{E},Target unit and all of the same species will suffer Increased damage by X and attacks have a X% less chacne to dodge or block for X seconds

Spear Mastery- Using a spear *poke* *poke*

static deathbringer · Apr 07, 2005, 03:35 PM // 15:35

the one thing i really miss in this game is the ability to play an elf or a dwarf or something like a centaur

dark elves above all i would love to play as. as for new character classes something like a jack-of- all trades, or a rouge so he could use like 3 different classes from a current build but be limited to a certain cap on skills like 8 on all skills that are not his own and this class could not have a second profession because that would make him way to powerful.

heres an example

rouge(some skill that he could come with)
thievery- this skill would "up" the chances that you get a better drop instead of a standard drop.

hide in shadows- if you are near death or just dont want to be seen you could select this command and move around freely unless you try and use a skill or attack soemone, and dureing this time you only recive half your health and energy back at normal rate. and it might not always work, the higher your skill the higer the chances it will, lower the skil the less.

sword/dagger- since rouges are usualy to small to use full weapons like axes or hammers

and then you can choose 3 more skills from any group such as mes/nec/ele/monk

but once you did you would be stuck with those skills permenatly i think it would be a nice addition without becomeing to powerful

gangguard · Apr 07, 2005, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Rouge has been mentioned a lot and it may seem slightly overpowered but still these are suggestions.

Running freely invisible will sorta cheap since every1 will respawn in 2 mins but still always room for suggestions

static deathbringer · Apr 07, 2005, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by gangguard

Rouge has been mentioned a lot and it may seem slightly overpowered but still these are suggestions.

Running freely invisible will sorta cheap since every1 will respawn in 2 mins but still always room for suggestions

youre right about it being that in PvP or even in mission it might be a lil to overpowered , so give it a time limit, 3 sec's for every point you have in it at a cap of 25-30?

Skizzle the Curado · Apr 07, 2005, 04:23 PM // 16:23

i think the rouge could work out well and not be too powerfull. I mean what would a rouge have in battle? a knife and some traps or somthin?

Kityn · Apr 07, 2005, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Hmm...wonder why everyone is spelling Rouge instead of Rogue

Far as I know rouge is cosmetic makeup

I've played rogues in other games.It just bothers me a lil when someone says rouge instead of rogue.Call it a pet peave of mine

Nevv · Apr 07, 2005, 05:05 PM // 17:05

/rant on (just a warning)

Stealth: The implementation of stealth in guild wars would be quite troublesome. First off GW in my opinion leans towards a skill based game (literally dodging projectiles for example). However, GW still uses a “targeting” system. So, you have to have the person targeted to attack him/her. Thus a skill based stealth similar to that which Planetside uses (for those of you who have not played it stealth is implemented by a Predator like light distortion so your hard to see but not impossible) would be impossible, since you have to target the person to attack. For example, lets say “the assassin” cloaks with a PlanetSide like distortion. I would either know exactly where he is and be able to target him, or if I notice he was cloaked I could do nothing because I’m not allowed to target him since he is cloaked. Thus, a skilled based cloak would be difficult to implement, which leads to the easier toggle cloak (ie. Makes you un-targetable while in cloak). I believe that a toggle cloak has no place in a game like Guild Wars; it just seems counter to everything else in the game. However, our ingenuitive development team may just be able to implement a skill based cloak (but I am not intelligent enough to devise a way to do it).

Unarmed Combat: Ok, I am not an expert on martial arts so please correct me if I am wrong. Have you ever seen two martial artists fight each other with just fists wearing leather hide or metal plate? I sure have not, and I believe it is for a good reason. Have you ever punched a car door? It is going to hurt because metal is much harder than your hand. Now if you punched the car door did you manage to do any real damage? Now I know your going to argue that martial artists break bricks and boards, but the way those demonstrations are set up the board or brick has two supports on either end producing a great deal of torque about the center of the block. People do not have opposing supports, people give and move, and armor disperses forces. I just do not see an unarmed man have much chance against an armed and more importantly armored opponent, when the unarmed man uses punches. Now if your unarmed combat user were to grapple and throw, maybe he would have a better chance.

Daggers/short weapons : Yes it is true that a well placed blow can kill no matter how big the blade is. But, I doubt there has ever been a person alive who would take a dagger to war instead of a sword or spear. Range is power, when it comes combat. The evolution of weaponry has gone for longer and longer range. Clubs, short swords and spears, to long swords (many adopted for range and as can openers for heavy armor), pikes and lance, to more advance projectile weaponry (slings to bows, to mechanical launchers, to black powder, to today’s GPS guided button missiles). Again, a similar argument for daggers as with unarmed. Against an armored opponent with longer reach you will be hard pressed to get close enough to utilize a dagger, but if you do the man with the sword will no longer be able to attack you effectively, and you can place a very pointy object between his armor gaps.
I would not mind seeing daggers as a back up weapon that anyone can use (ie sword and dagger), and a class that specializes in the use of such a combination (has skills that by pass armor or something with the dagger blow). However, a full blown duel wielding dagger user, has never really had a place on the battle field unless he is assassinating someone before the real fighting begins.

Pole Arms: in general pole arms weapons are used in a unit formation since they weapon itself is slow as dirt and not easy to move to protect your flank. So, you have buddies on both your sides that also carry these long and nearly unreachable weapons when attacked from the front. GW is more of a skirmish, last time I looked we did not have blocks of units to help defend my weak pole arms using flank. So, it does not seem likely that pole arms would be of much use in the GW environment. However, the quarter staff was designed to be a long reach weapon specifically for defeating swordsmen in skirmish situations. So, if you really wanted a long reach weapon for GW I would recommend the quarter staff or a short spear.

/rant off (sorry about that)

static deathbringer · Apr 07, 2005, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevv

/rant on (just a warning)

Stealth: The implementation of stealth in guild wars would be quite troublesome. First off GW in my opinion leans towards a skill based game (literally dodging projectiles for example). However, GW still uses a “targeting” system. So, you have to have the person targeted to attack him/her. Thus a skill based stealth similar to that which Planetside uses (for those of you who have not played it stealth is implemented by a Predator like light distortion so your hard to see but not impossible) would be impossible, since you have to target the person to attack. For example, lets say “the assassin” cloaks with a PlanetSide like distortion. I would either know exactly where he is and be able to target him, or if I notice he was cloaked I could do nothing because I’m not allowed to target him since he is cloaked. Thus, a skilled based cloak would be difficult to implement, which leads to the easier toggle cloak (ie. Makes you un-targetable while in cloak). I believe that a toggle cloak has no place in a game like Guild Wars; it just seems counter to everything else in the game. However, our ingenuitive development team may just be able to implement a skill based cloak (but I am not intelligent enough to devise a way to do it).

Unarmed Combat: Ok, I am not an expert on martial arts so please correct me if I am wrong. Have you ever seen two martial artists fight each other with just fists wearing leather hide or metal plate? I sure have not, and I believe it is for a good reason. Have you ever punched a car door? It is going to hurt because metal is much harder than your hand. Now if you punched the car door did you manage to do any real damage? Now I know your going to argue that martial artists break bricks and boards, but the way those demonstrations are set up the board or brick has two supports on either end producing a great deal of torque about the center of the block. People do not have opposing supports, people give and move, and armor disperses forces. I just do not see an unarmed man have much chance against an armed and more importantly armored opponent, when the unarmed man uses punches. Now if your unarmed combat user were to grapple and throw, maybe he would have a better chance.

Daggers/short weapons : Yes it is true that a well placed blow can kill no matter how big the blade is. But, I doubt there has ever been a person alive who would take a dagger to war instead of a sword or spear. Range is power, when it comes combat. The evolution of weaponry has gone for longer and longer range. Clubs, short swords and spears, to long swords (many adopted for range and as can openers for heavy armor), pikes and lance, to more advance projectile weaponry (slings to bows, to mechanical launchers, to black powder, to today’s GPS guided button missiles). Again, a similar argument for daggers as with unarmed. Against an armored opponent with longer reach you will be hard pressed to get close enough to utilize a dagger, but if you do the man with the sword will no longer be able to attack you effectively, and you can place a very pointy object between his armor gaps.
I would not mind seeing daggers as a back up weapon that anyone can use (ie sword and dagger), and a class that specializes in the use of such a combination (has skills that by pass armor or something with the dagger blow). However, a full blown duel wielding dagger user, has never really had a place on the battle field unless he is assassinating someone before the real fighting begins.

Pole Arms: in general pole arms weapons are used in a unit formation since they weapon itself is slow as dirt and not easy to move to protect your flank. So, you have buddies on both your sides that also carry these long and nearly unreachable weapons when attacked from the front. GW is more of a skirmish, last time I looked we did not have blocks of units to help defend my weak pole arms using flank. So, it does not seem likely that pole arms would be of much use in the GW environment. However, the quarter staff was designed to be a long reach weapon specifically for defeating swordsmen in skirmish situations. So, if you really wanted a long reach weapon for GW I would recommend the quarter staff or a short spear.

/rant off (sorry about that)

all valid points, but if yopu see from my above post"stealth" or hide in shadows would be limited and probably very costly, sort of a lasst resort from dieing. also to the rtest of your comments about the dagger/sword/polearm/unarmed

is this real life? no. this is fantasy. of course your goin to be hurt if you punch something, whether it be metal,armor, or just someone elses face, but this jsut a game, so we can say well our guys are just that tough, that they can take a ferw scrapes on the knuckles and be ok. besides that UA combat dosent just have to mean useing your fist, ever heard of something cxalled a katar? or a cestus? im not trying to sound rude or anything but you put way to much real life occurences into a game. besides these are just suggestrions, the people at Anet will not release something if they know it's going to be to overpowered. when they do release a new race/class it will be no better give or take the first 6, just different to keep the game from getting stale. JMO

Sir Erec · Apr 07, 2005, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Well you could possibly have some races, such as Charr, Undead, Centaur, and dwarves, who feel compassion for the humans and have joined their cause.

This way if you picked Charr: +1 to strenght; Undead: +1 blood magic; Centaur: +1 Marksmanship; etc...

You get that bonus for picking that race. Just a thought. That way the race isnt really "uber".

Chaos Engine · Apr 07, 2005, 06:53 PM // 18:53

When you think about stealth, you have to think about "detection" as well.

Think of single player stealth games. Most of these games have "sight cones" with limited ranges for enemies. A stealthed player would only be visible to another player if he stayed in the boundaries of the said cone for a certain amount of time. The "next target" button would ignore the rogue unless he is visible in this manner.
A rogue's primary attribute could be Stealth, and by spending points on this attribute the "grace period" I mentioned above would be increased.

Rogue players would have to find a way around player sentries, and these sentries would have to actually look for sneaking rogues. Primary rogues would be always better than secondary rogues at stealth, but a ranger/rogue could dual wield swords and have access to melee attacks & more evasive maneuvers and so on.

Implementation of rogues & stealth could also give rangers another role. Expertise could work as a negative modifier to the rogue's grace period boosted by stealth. This way, a ranger with high Expertise would need less time to detect a rogue in his sight cone. Since rangers naturally prefer hilltops etc doubling as sentries would mesh in with their gameplay style & role nicely.