Curse

eA-Zaku · May 22, 2005, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Racism is wrong. Even those who support it know it. But the thing is, it is very very hard to stop in this situation.

And another thing to anyone who has any kind of opinion on this at all: I've only read the first two or so pages of replies, but has anyone thought of this? The poster said the Korean players could read English fine, as it is a pretty well-known and easily learned language. So then...

Why not let the Koreans do something about it? Until you visit a Korean forum and hear them complaining about "those racist Americans," then I don't see why you're getting so worked up. Especially since a problem like racism is very hard to solve. So, if it doesn't bother the Koreans, what's the problem? It's not like the offenders are fire-bombing all the Korean houses in their neighborhood. I think affirmative action will be taken when the Korean players start voicing their complaints.

Xelig · May 22, 2005, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

Gnome that's just my point, how do you intend to "report" it? Screenshots can EASILY be edited

Actually, that highlights exactly what is glaringly absent from GW: a /report function, which automatically reports the last x lines of text from the chat box to a GM/Dev/Moderator/whatever they use.

I don't expect racism to be eliminated either from the game or real life. I completely accept that there's no way to adequately police the entire game and abolish it entirely. But that doesn't mean it should just be accepted and allowed to run rampant.

GW has a small problem at the moment, which is that its playerbase hosts a vast proportion of rude, impatient, foul-mouthed brats (in comparison to most other MMOs) -- most probably attributable to the fact that it requires no monthly fee (ergo no credit card, ergo no age check and much easier for mum and dad to buy the game for little Bobby and not need to worry about it again).

If ArenaNet don't take some steps towards enforcing their rules about harrassment, it's only going to put off the more mature audience from playing and buying their expansions. I've only been playing a few weeks and already the number of rude, short-tempered, d00d-speaking teammates I've had to put up with is wearing my patience very thin, and I already know a couple of people who quit because, although they enjoyed the game mechanics and content, they couldn't stick the general attitude in chat. No game wants to get a reputation for being a haven for brats. Sure, you can ignore people, either just don't rise to the bait or actually put them on your ignore list. But when such a high proportion of the playerbase is like that, you begin to wonder why you're playing a team-oriented game -- if 75% of your team is either grating on your nerves or being ignored, where's the enjoyment?

I don't expect ArenaNet/NCSoft to police every word uttered by every player, but I do expect them to put adequate systems in place to report violations of the rules and license agreement -- that is, unless they want to shoot themselves in the foot. And by adequate systems, I mean ones where doctoring the content of reported material is not possible -- the current reporting process is terrible, for exactly that reason; it's completely open to abuse. It's not just for some smug sense of satisfaction that I'd want to report rude, abusive, racist players, but if it's destroying the potentially fun and friendly atmosphere of the game then something needs to be done about it. Just like I'd report bugs or exploiters. I don't want to log into a glitchy, buggy game; I don't want to log into a PvP game where I'm getting endlessly ganked by exploiters who are warping around the map and nuking me from places I can't target; and I don't want to log into a full-on, multi-national racist bitch-fest. Can you blame me for wanting to at least do something constructive to help improve the game experience?

PieXags · May 22, 2005, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xelig

Actually, that highlights exactly what is glaringly absent from GW: a /report function, which automatically reports the last x lines of text from the chat box to a GM/Dev/Moderator/whatever they use.

Now here's an idea that I really enjoy, I've only seen this sort of system used once, and that was in a beta I participated in for a sort of FPS-RPG, it was also used to send images/coding dealing with bugs that needed to be reported.

I suppose the reason I'm so skeptical about a system that tries to overcome such things is because the last MMORPG I played for a while was the RYL betas, for 8 months of my life I tested that game out, hoping desperately it would get better. It only got worse, with GMs always trying to moderate everything and then bitching about it when people kept asking them questions, it didn't work in any sense. Racists/ego-builds were rampant and I couldn't stand the community as a whole, there was so much effort put into making it a decent community that they went and screwed it all up with so many filters and rules and the forums were LITTERED with people trying to report people for bad things they'd gone and done in-game. The problem was that many many people's accounts were royally screwed because of how complicated things got, and after this I'm a little, iffy when it comes to such means of controlling what one does in-game.

Part of why I'm more for the idea of the sort of report system quoted above is because, well in previous posts, I'd not had a reason to vouch for things like that when I'd not seen a lot of racist remarks in-game. Well I just got back from one of the worst PvP-sessions I've ever had in my life because 5 people, that's right, 5 seemed to have banded together for the soul purpose of waiting in spawn as the match went on as various forms of certain racial slurs which I'll not repeat here were spammed through my team chat. Now what did this remind me of? RYL. Ignoring them worked, sure, but it ruined my party and the amount of people I added to my ignore list in a short time was bothering.

Either way, while I'm not all that concerned about some comments, there are certain things that I've got a disliking for, and when I start to see things come about in the community that weren't there before it irritates me. Then again, this was bound to happen, as with any and all games online. I'm all for an efficient and indisputable report system, by all means.

Now, to go find another arena without so many..."potty mouths".

BahamutKaiser · May 22, 2005, 07:43 AM // 07:43

There are rude bad mouthed brats in every game. But in this game you have no obligation to hang around them, listen to them, or serve them.

This game is easy enough for any person to gain an upper hand, so unlike other MMOs, there isn't a massive gathering of greedy jerks at the top who impose crappy Auction House prices, or monopolize all the nice items, or talk down to you. They are just a bunch of morons spitting in the wind, they insult themselves more then anyone else by displaying thier immaturity.

I would say that while Anet has an obligation to consider more control devices, they are not charging a monthly fee, which means they do not have the excess budget to pay monitors to baby sit every district. Moreover, these people are no different then the ones you have to deal with in real life, the digital barrier just makes them even more inconsiderate of consiquence. As a mature adult, which I know not everyone playing is, you should learn to overcome the improper behavior around you, your not god, it is not your place to police everyone playing.

I think advanced/friendly players should start collecting all thier friends on remote districts to isolate themselves from other players, basicly creating your own community of well behaved citizens who arn't interested in hearing all the badmouthing. Likewise, Anet can restrict convicted players (ones who have been caught badmouthing) to certain districts, isolating the poor characters. Just like Georgia or Australia, they will end up getting along and make thier own community, and eventually they may learn to clean up thier act.

P.S. I'm Korean.

eA-Zaku · May 22, 2005, 07:49 AM // 07:49

Quote:

This game is easy enough for any person to gain an upper hand, so unlike other MMOs, there isn't a massive gathering of greedy jerks at the top who impose crappy Auction House prices, or monopolize all the nice items, or talk down to you.

"WTB Sigil 65k"
"---- noob 65k"
"I'll sell Sigil for 100k"

Striker Shardale · May 22, 2005, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by eA-Zaku

"WTB Sigil 65k"
"---- noob 65k"
"I'll sell Sigil for 100k"

I think they need to make the sigils a little more frequent at the trader. The last thing I really want to do is save up all of that gold to have to buy it off somebody. I do not even consider there to be a price for the sigil anymore, basically it is whatever some guy wants to set it as.

Nad · May 22, 2005, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Actually, that highlights exactly what is glaringly absent from GW: a /report function, which automatically reports the last x lines of text from the chat box to a GM/Dev/Moderator/whatever they use.

Wow are you seroius? This is a MMO not Nazi Germany...Set your chat filter higher. Maybe you guys should bring up this discovery of rasicm on GuildWars to the UN or supreme court, I'm sure they will end it post haste...because they can...right?

Cherokee_Wolf · May 22, 2005, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by twotimes

As a minority twice over, I take solace in knowing that, as far as we can tell humans started out brown, and will become brown in the end through mixing.

It's funny to see people defend children for being potty mouths and racists. This should be the flag to start a revolution of rationale across this community, and into the real world.

The acceptance contributes to it never being defeated. If someone makes a racial comment around me, I have no qualms putting him or her on the spot. Someone said previously that it's caused by ignorance and stupidity. It's much more than that; it is a systemic problem that will have to be addressed eventually.

50 years ago in the U.S. we needed the civil rights movement to start acting straight. 120 years ago we almost annihilated an entire breed of people in this country. I say breed, because that's what Indians are, black, white, brown, red, yellow, whatever, they are breeds not "races". You can't beat anything if you can't define it correctly.

The original poster is actually correct in stating Americans are idiots. 41% of the U.S. population is either illiterate or functioning illiterate. How can you expect them to understand such a problem if they're unable to read or understand the issue. Being illiterate doesn't make you stupid, but a lack of vocabulary puts one at such a disadvantage they are unable to participate. The entire system is messed up just by the labeling.

Here’s example: “My friend at school, he’s black, was cracking everybody up today.”

Just listen to the people around you in their day-to-day discussions, and you will hear this. As if the fact that his friend is black is a necessary description. Also, every governmental piece of paper we fill out has a label. A label that is decisive and incorrect. Most people that fill out the African-american, native American, Korean American are indeed American. First and foremost almost exclusively american. What comes first though? Even though they maybe 15th generation American, they are still described as something else first.

You can make the argument that it is indeed helpful to minorities as far as specific programs are concerned, but otherwise it’s just a separator. Take it off all forms that do not include the census or any cataloguing endeavor. If you continue to grind the stone on the little things it will shape it into the proper form eventually.

Just thoughts from a concerned human.

2

now here is the flaw in your logic you say native americans are "breeds not races" well here is were you are wrong i am native american and im cherokee we are a tribe not a breed we have laws in are tribes we have the cherokee nation. so your logic is flawed because you refered to a people as a breed not a race when we are a tribe differant tribes at that there are sue cherokee black foot to name a few but get racisim is not right and i hate rasists but people should see everyone as this we are one race... the human race and we have alot of differant ethnicities like black asian native american and so on so thus we are one race the human race and later in the future when we do finally meet a differant race we would have got are heads out are butts (notice i didnt use a nother word that means the same thing) long enought so have some intelligence until then everyone who is a rasist just needs to shut up because all you do is show your intelligence when you open your mouth so its just simple to not say anything at all.

Thorburn · May 22, 2005, 06:41 PM // 18:41

These threads always turn into Anti-american bashing. I wish you Aholes would go crawl back under your rocks and do something to correct your countries so you are no longer jealous of ours...

Corwin_Andros · May 22, 2005, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Cherokee Wolf.. I think what twotimes was trying to point out is that we are a singulr human race.. Any distinctions between us is actually quite superficial, although in a visual sense it can be dramatic.. It is like comparing two breeds of any other species. We are all Home sapiens sapiens.. One species..One RACE.

I always get a hoot when they start distinguishing people by origin anyhow. If you really wanted to trace your roots back oh say about 120,000 years give or take.. We are all of African decent... at least according to the best research of modern science. We are all related somehwere in our family trees if one could reasonably go back far enough.

It just makes "racism" that much more retarded. Look around you folks. Everyone you see is a long lost cousin distantly removed on both sides of your family.. Get over yourselves. No one group of us is any better than the other.

It is an unfortunate fact that one of the most insidious human failures is our tendancy towards ethnocentrism. Its always an Us and THEM thing. That is the nature of competition. But the racism part is just plain childish.

Eet GnomeSmasher · May 22, 2005, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thorburn

These threads always turn into Anti-american bashing. I wish you Aholes would go crawl back under your rocks and do something to correct your countries so you are no longer jealous of ours...

Wow....just...wow. People like you are what makes us Americans look so bad.

PieXags · May 22, 2005, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Well at least I gave it a shot. Go figure.

BlaineTog · May 23, 2005, 12:53 AM // 00:53

I agree with Xenogyst (post #12). Homophobia is FAR more prevalent in GW than Racism. I'm up to the Crystal Desert and I haven't seen a single solitary racist epithet or slur, but I seem homophobic statements used all over the place. One would think that more effort should be put on stopping those since overt racism is strongly discouraged by modern society (for the most part) whereas over homophobia is not so strongly discouraged.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twotimes

The original poster is actually correct in stating Americans are idiots. 41% of the U.S. population is either illiterate or functioning illiterate.

A) Citing a source does not make that source correct. Just pointing something out.
B) Illiterate =! Idiotic. Illiterate = Ignorant. I know you corrected yourself right after, but you easily could have gotten it right the first time.
C) In order to play Guild Wars, one must be literate. There's really no way of getting around it. Therefore, this statistic has nothing to do with the matter at hand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty Scupper

That is seriously the most East German Stasi crap I've heard in a long time. Do you spy on your neighbors? Do you want the police to have total contol?

Land of the free - as long as no ones feelings get hurt.

Wern't you the one who made such a big deal about GW not being real life? I think there's a case to be made on both sides of the fence (ie "GW can be a metaphor for RL" and "GW cannot be a metaphor for RL"), but please try to stick to one side or the other.

Quote:

I'm not a racist no matter how hard you try to shoehorn that argument. I guarantee you I associate with a more diverse group of people than most will ever meet.

See the bolded sentence? That's something only a racist-who-thinks-he's-not-a-racist would say. "No, I'm not racist. I have a black friend or two."

Of course, you didn't even say that. You said "associated." The KKK "associates" with non-white races from time to time, and that hardly makes them tolerant.

Nosce te ipsum: know thyself.

Quote:

I enjoy freedom for everyone, and you seek to limit it.

No, they seek to limit it further. You do not, for example, have the right to shoot a store clerk and take his money.

Or, rather, they seek to enforce a preexisting limitation, since racism is already against the rules of conduct in GW.

Quote:

Enjoy the game.

That's the problem. It's hard to enjoy the game when bigotted statements get tossed around. It detracts from the experience.

PS: Whether the thread-starter is racist or not (ie "idiot Americans") is irrelevant to the issue. A hypocrit can still be right.

Eet GnomeSmasher · May 23, 2005, 12:58 AM // 00:58

BlaineTog...that was a damn good post. Concise and to the point.

Poppinjay · May 23, 2005, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corwin_Andros

Cherokee Wolf.. I think what twotimes was trying to point out is that we are a singulr human race.. Any distinctions between us is actually quite superficial, although in a visual sense it can be dramatic.. It is like comparing two breeds of any other species. We are all Home sapiens sapiens.. One species..One RACE.

Indeed, human beings are more similar to each other than almost all other species. We hit an evolutionary bottleneck at some point (I forget when) that accounts for this. Interestingly this is also true between men and women. Human beings have less sexual dimorphism than most, but not all, other mammals onthe planet.

Pop

Rusty Scupper · May 23, 2005, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlaineTog

Wern't you the one who made such a big deal about GW not being real life? I think there's a case to be made on both sides of the fence (ie "GW can be a metaphor for RL" and "GW cannot be a metaphor for RL"), but please try to stick to one side or the other.

I was replying to his real world scenario. Try and comprehend what you are reading, it helps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlaineTog

See the bolded sentence? That's something only a racist-who-thinks-he's-not-a-racist would say. "No, I'm not racist. I have a black friend or two."

Of course, you didn't even say that. You said "associated." The KKK "associates" with non-white races from time to time, and that hardly makes them tolerant.

Nosce te ipsum: know thyself.

Do I know you? I didn't think so. You don't who I live, work, and play with. Stick with what you know, you'll sound like less of a fool. I don't understand why I would live in one of most diverse citys on the planet if I hated other races. I can't begin to imagine why I'm in a relationship with someone who (gasp!) isn't the same race as me. (gasp!)

I'm still waiting for someone to show me one racist thing I've said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlaineTog

No, they seek to limit it further. You do not, for example, have the right to shoot a store clerk and take his money.

That is stunning insight.

My position is very simple. People can say anything they want. You can say anything you want to them if you disagree. Sometimes, you'll just have to ignore some people because you can't see eye to eye.

You'll never convince me someone should be forcibly silenced for having an unpopular opinion.

Now you may commence calling me a racist liar. Since you know so much about me and all.

Dagbiker · May 23, 2005, 01:20 AM // 01:20

wow, absolutly correct. the idea is to enjoy the game. and i do aggre with you full heartedly

Eet GnomeSmasher · May 23, 2005, 02:39 AM // 02:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty Scupper

My position is very simple. People can say anything they want. You can say anything you want to them if you disagree. Sometimes, you'll just have to ignore some people because you can't see eye to eye.

You'll never convince me someone should be forcibly silenced for having an unpopular opinion.

Man you don't get it. You keep going on and on about how your freedom of speech is being trampled on but all freedoms have limits. You can say whatever you want BUT there are limits to it. For example, you can not yell fire in a crowded movie threatre. Or yell "I have a bomb" in an airport. Try to use your freedom of speech crap spiel on the judge.

Bottomline is that it is against the TOS in GW to use racial remarks. If you don't like it then tough. Don't play the game. That's also your right to not play a game with those rules.

Again, is it so hard to abide by the rules and NOT use racial language in the game?

Xelig · May 23, 2005, 02:51 AM // 02:51

Quote:

Quote:
---------------------------------------------------
Actually, that highlights exactly what is glaringly absent from GW: a /report function, which automatically reports the last x lines of text from the chat box to a GM/Dev/Moderator/whatever they use.
---------------------------------------------------

Wow are you seroius? This is a MMO not Nazi Germany...Set your chat filter higher. Maybe you guys should bring up this discovery of rasicm on GuildWars to the UN or supreme court, I'm sure they will end it post haste...because they can...right?

Just wanted to note: yes, I am serious. Every other MMO I've played has a /report function that does exactly what I described, for exactly the purpose we're discussing (helping the MMO company track down or keep tabs on people who are violating the game rules). That's why I said it's glaringly absent from GW.

Xelig · May 23, 2005, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty Scupper

My position is very simple. People can say anything they want.

The long and short of it is this: in real life, that's fine, you can say anything you want because it's not against the rules (law) to do so. In-game, though, ArenaNet sets the rules and their rules say that, if you wish to play the game on their servers, you may not say anything you want. You must keep your language civil or deal with the consequences.