Curse

Cronox · Jun 07, 2005, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Say I have 2 PvE characters, a 20 W/Mo and 20 E/Me, unlocked every skill with each of them, ascended, infused, beat the game etc. I'd like to switch my E/Me to a E/Mo. I'm pretty sure that under the current system I'd have to earn all my monk skills again on a different character. This shows the unfairness of a PvE character to me.

What I'd like to see is something where a PvE character can switch secondaries after some endgame point (ascending, beating the story) and have previously unlocked unlocked skills already there.

-It could be after an end-game event.
-It could be a non-transferable item earned that gives you your already unlocked skills once you've switched a class with a PvE character.

Now, some may say that this would make PvP characters worthless, but I have a counter argument. Using the 2 characters I talked about above, if I wanted to make a PvP character E/Mo instead of switching my PvE E/Me, I could with less difficulty, because there'd be no profession changing quest involved.

Also, if I've unlocked the skills for Elementalists, Mesmers, Monks, and Warriors with those characters a PvP character can still do something neither of the 2 PvE characters can do: be a different primary profession. I could make a PvP Mo/E, Me/Mo etc.

The reason I'd like my PvE characters to switch instead of just creating a PvP character E/Mo is that I get to carry my equipment, that purple fire wand with bonuses found nowhere in the PvP character creation for example.
-I also don't have to needlessly use a character slot (only 4... they're valuable)
-or use only runes I've unlocked when I could easily buy them with a PvE character.

Having to earn skills I've already unlocked is the definition of grind to me. I'd love to get some support for this or at least some constructive arguments. I'd really like to know if anyone can think of how this would be bad for the game.

Or just say "I agree" and bump this thread up

Spike · Jun 07, 2005, 11:34 PM // 23:34

why do pvp people want everything on a plate ?

deathwearer · Jun 07, 2005, 11:35 PM // 23:35

if i understand right what you said.... well you can already switch second proffesion wit pve char. Can be done in the 3 outpost in heroe audience.

ComMan · Jun 07, 2005, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Did you even read the post Spike?

I think you've got a few valid points, but I garuntee that most people will tell you to make an Mo/E PvP character with your unlocked skills.

Edit: Wow, two misreads. What he wants is to switch his PRIMARY profession without losing all of the equipment he has for his PvE character.

Soiled Egg Roll · Jun 07, 2005, 11:39 PM // 23:39

He's saying that he wants to switch his PvE Ele/Me to Ele/Mo, and have all the skills that he unlocked from his PvP War/Mo. The current system now has it so his new Ele/Mo would have no monks skills, even though he already unlocked monk skills on his War/Mo. It looks like he's suggesting that when you unlock a skill, you unlock for all characters not just PvP.

Edit: Whoops, I meant PvE War/Mo, not PvP

Cronox · Jun 07, 2005, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soiled Egg Roll

He's saying that he wants to switch his PvE Ele/Me to Ele/Mo, and have all the skills that he unlocked from his PvP War/Mo. The current system now has it so his new Ele/Mo would have no monks skills, even though he already unlocked monk skills on his War/Mo. It looks like he's suggesting that when you unlock a skill, you unlock for all characters not just PvP.

Exactly. Sorry if my explanation was confusing. Except the War/Mo is PvE also.

Stauf · Jun 07, 2005, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Well, with the stipulation that that character has completed the whole game, right?

Evan The Cursed · Jun 07, 2005, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soiled Egg Roll

He's saying that he wants to switch his PvE Ele/Me to Ele/Mo, and have all the skills that he unlocked from his PvP War/Mo. The current system now has it so his new Ele/Mo would have no monks skills, even though he already unlocked monk skills on his War/Mo. It looks like he's suggesting that when you unlock a skill, you unlock for all characters not just PvP.

Right.

I kind of like the idea... so annoying that quests that give one skill for your primary and one for your secondary aren't doable after switching in the desert. And even if you switch to another secondary and do all of that secondary's linked quests, you still only have like 1/4 of the total profession's skills.

But, what if you switched from E/Me to E/Mo and had a W/Me (or something else) on your account? Then switched back to E/Me? Would all the Me skills that you receive through quests and trainers suddenly be unlocked? The switch back appears identical to the first switch.

Did I make myself clear? I kind of confused myself there...

Inziladun · Jun 07, 2005, 11:47 PM // 23:47

So if I make a W/MO with all the Warrior and Monk skills unlocked I can own the noobies with my Elites? O.o

Soiled Egg Roll · Jun 07, 2005, 11:51 PM // 23:51

It would be hard to implement, as Inziladun has just pointed out. Low level arena's would have a lot of people that have their entire build up, while newer people don't even have 1 elite yet. It would really set things off balance.

Maybe this would work if you didn't get those skills that you unlocked on another character until you ascended.

Cronox · Jun 07, 2005, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evan The Cursed

Right.

I kind of like the idea... so annoying that quests that give one skill for your primary and one for your secondary aren't doable after switching in the desert. And even if you switch to another secondary and do all of that secondary's linked quests, you still only have like 1/4 of the total profession's skills.

But, what if you switched from E/Me to E/Mo and had a W/Me (or something else) on your account? Then switched back to E/Me? Would all the Me skills that you receive through quests and trainers suddenly be unlocked? The switch back appears identical to the first switch.

Did I make myself clear? I kind of confused myself there...

Hm, not quite getting it. Are you asking if a W/Me could go around unlocking skills for the E/Me? I'd say that they both have to be characters that have finished (beaten) the game, and then I'd see no problem with it.

And to answer Stauf: yes.

Talesin Darkbriar · Jun 07, 2005, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cronox

Say I have 2 PvE characters, a 20 W/Mo and 20 E/Me, unlocked every skill with each of them, ascended, infused, beat the game etc. I'd like to switch my E/Me to a E/Mo. I'm pretty sure that under the current system I'd have to earn all my monk skills again on a different character. This shows the unfairness of a PvE character to me.

I disagree.
First, most people would simply make a Warrior/Monk (the preferred choice for the minimally skilled) and simply blow through the game, and then obtain all the rewards of the other classes.
Bad idea. There are multiple classes to suit playing styles, and some require a bit more thought and imagination to effectively use. Playing through these classes essentially teaches the intelligent person which skills work in what condition, and in what combination.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cronox

What I'd like to see is something where a PvE character can switch secondaries after some endgame point (ascending, beating the story) and have previously unlocked unlocked skills already there.

Again, this is a bad idea.
Part of a games retention value comes in replayability. If you work through it once and gain EVERYTHING, while this suits you perfectly, you will also quickly tire of GW and move on to something else - they won't keep you long enough to stay for the upcoming additions and expansions - bad business model.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cronox

Having to earn skills I've already unlocked is the definition of grind to me. I'd love to get some support for this or at least some constructive arguments. I'd really like to know if anyone can think of how this would be bad for the game.

The problem with this is, just because you have "unlocked" a skill doesn't mean you have any idea of how to effectively employ it - particularly if it is for another class you have never played. The PvE game, besides being very entertaining, is also one huge tutorial that teaches how to compensate for many different situations and overcome adversity in a variety aof ways.
Simply giving you everything on a silver platter both cheapens this concept, and results in many players running about with builds that they are clueless as to the role or function - not that there aren't already enough people in that boat already...

May your skills prevail,

Talesin

Cronox · Jun 07, 2005, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soiled Egg Roll

It would be hard to implement, as Inziladun has just pointed out. Low level arena's would have a lot of people that have their entire build up, while newer people don't even have 1 elite yet. It would really set things off balance.

Maybe this would work if you didn't get those skills that you unlocked on another character until you ascended.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Me

What I'd like to see is something where a PvE character can switch secondaries after some endgame point (ascending, beating the story) and have previously unlocked unlocked skills already there.

So yes, wouldn't get these skills until the character has finished the game and switches professions.

Stauf · Jun 08, 2005, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Talesin, I was going to respond to your post, but it looks like you've got his idea completely wrong. Did you read his post? Try reading it again.

Cronox · Jun 08, 2005, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talesin Darkbriar

I disagree.
First, most people would simply make a Warrior/Monk (the preferred choice for the minimally skilled) and simply blow through the game, and then obtain all the rewards of the other classes.
Bad idea. There are multiple classes to suit playing styles, and some require a bit more thought and imagination to effectively use. Playing through these classes essentially teaches the intelligent person which skills work in what condition, and in what combination.

I think you misunderstand. To get the other skills you'd have to have two fully leveled up role-playing characters that have beaten the game. In leveling up both these characters, (Ex: W/Mo, E/Me) you've learned to play them. So why not be able switch your W/Mo to a W/E or W/Me and gain the benefit of the skills you unlocked on another (fully in endgame) character? With the two examples I mentioned, I could easily go make a PvP character W/E or W/Me, but I'd rather do it with my own character, taking my own equipment, and saving a character slot. And I can't change primary profession so PvP characters will be the only place to try different primary professions still.

[QUOTE]Again, this is a bad idea.
Part of a games retention value comes in replayability. If you work through it once and gain EVERYTHING, while this suits you perfectly, you will also quickly tire of GW and move on to something else - they won't keep you long enough to stay for the upcoming additions and expansions - bad business model.[/QUOTE

See above

Quote:

The problem with this is, just because you have "unlocked" a skill doesn't mean you have any idea of how to effectively employ it - particularly if it is for another class you have never played. The PvE game, besides being very entertaining, is also one huge tutorial that teaches how to compensate for many different situations and overcome adversity in a variety aof ways.
Simply giving you everything on a silver platter both cheapens this concept, and results in many players running about with builds that they are clueless as to the role or function - not that there aren't already enough people in that boat already...

May your skills prevail,

Talesin

Well, unlocking elites in the endgame and going straight to PvP with it doesn't mean you've learned how to emply it effectively. But you earned it. I can't stress enough that this is all endgame. This problem is beginning to annoy me as my own characters (guess what, a W/Mo and E/Me get closer to attaining level 20 and beating the game). At that point I'd really like to switch my E/Me to a E/Mo but I'll have to earn all the monk skills over again. Do you see the problem?

Evan The Cursed · Jun 08, 2005, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Well, my question was, would it allow a person to switch characters to another class and then back (here I am assuming that you unlock skills for a character upon switching class. eg. switching E/Mo to E/Me you automatically have all of the Me skills that you unlocked on your W/Me or whatever) but would this also allow a character who switched E/Mo -> E/Me, to switch back to -> E/Mo, and unlock all of the Mo skills another character on his account unlocked?

That way they could bypass spending any skill points on Monk skills altogether, and just wait until they beat the game/ascend/whatever to switch to any random class and then back again.

Any clearer?

>_>
<_< Communicating thoughts is too hard! *insert thumb into mouth*

EDIT: I'd also like to add, on a different tangent, that grinding for and collecting skills that you have already collected, is anything but replayability. What it is, is boring.

Cronox · Jun 08, 2005, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evan The Cursed

Well, my question was, would it allow a person to switch characters to another class and then back (here I am assuming that you unlock skills for a character upon switching class. eg. switching E/Mo to E/Me you automatically have all of the Me skills that you unlocked on your W/Me or whatever) but would this also allow a character who switched E/Mo -> E/Me, to switch back to -> E/Mo, and unlock all of the Mo skills another character on his account unlocked?

I don't see why not, but all these characters would have to be level 20 and have beaten the game. If you have a W/Me and a E/Me both at endgame (I keep stressing this), I don't see why either character shouldn't be able to unlock skills for the other. Come to think of it, this idea is sort of simply said.

When a Roleplaying character beats the game, he/she gains other character's skills like PvP character. An argument can be made that a level 20 should be able to not just get skills from other endgame characters (that have beaten the game), but from lower level characters also.

I'm trying to think of ways this would be bad... As long as characters that haven't beaten the game yet cannot get access to skills unlocked by other chars, I don't see why they couldn't benefit the fully leveled ones.

Quote:

That way they could bypass spending any skill points on Monk skills altogether, and just wait until they beat the game/ascend/whatever to switch to any random class and then back again.

One of the characters would have to spend skill points on it. The way it works now is if you switch a secondary profession back you have access to all the stuff you did before, so that part would make sense. Point being that you wouldn't want to switch secondaries and try to unlock a whole new set of skills. You'd want to unlock that with a new character, cause its easier, but you'd want it to affect the old one.

Quote:

EDIT: I'd also like to add, on a different tangent, that grinding for and collecting skills that you have already collected, is anything but replayability. What it is, is boring.

Yup.

Getting the feeling this is just getting more confusing for readers of the thread. If anyone who understands wants to make a synopsis, go for it