Curse

Miridan · Jun 13, 2005, 01:01 PM // 13:01

I'm now gonna harp about two PvP expliots that are commonly used to unfaily gain an advantage.

#1 - Everyone knows that in the 1v1 map if you wait to kill the last person until right after the hall has been won, you can go straight to the hall without fighting your way there. This is very irritating not only for the people who have fought thier way to the hall, but also the poor soul who is last to be killed. Plz fix, ArenaNet.

#2 - Characters can block using thier bodies - this was used against us with spirits and players preventing our relic runner from obtaining a relic, and thus costing us a match. Also this was used by our very own Idiot Savants guild when they fought our guild, Purgatory Syndicate - they bunched up in the center of the altar and prevented our ghostly hero from taking it. Not only should you be able to move past characters and spirits, but the hero should be able to take the altar from anywhere on the altar, not just in the center.

Just venting my fustration.

Bugeater · Jun 13, 2005, 01:13 PM // 13:13

I don't see #2 as being an exploit, it's just strategy. The developers made a design decision to include collision and if you know anything about game programming, you'll know there's a decent amount of logic that has to be added to get it to work. And in order to *exploit* the collision logic, you have to be very organized and disciplined with your team. I would rather have a hard time against organized and disciplined teams than re-hash the WOW no-collision scenario where your key players get bum rushed and your opponents just run right through you.

Vangor · Jun 13, 2005, 01:26 PM // 13:26

Indeed, I've been dieing to see collision detection once again, it means Warriors can actually block! Granted most areas it can be gotten around, but really, I'd rather have my enemies get congested amongst one another and be able to impede their progress than...not

Bazooka · Jun 13, 2005, 01:48 PM // 13:48

#1 Agree, its an exploit. The funny thing is, so many people are doing it that the net effect is the same as before, random chance of getting into the HoH.

#2 Disagree , not an exploit.

toastgodsupreme · Jun 13, 2005, 01:56 PM // 13:56

#2, you nuke them. If everyone is together, throw some aoes and chaos storms.

I mean really, there's a counter to it.

Aug · Jun 13, 2005, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Collision is not an exploit. The developers purposely implemented avatar collision so people could do just what you're complaining about. If you can't run past them... I don't know, maybe try killing them?

It's about time collision detection was put into a recent mainstream MMO. WoW's PvP/GvG is (IMO) trash due to a lack of collision.

Miridan · Jun 13, 2005, 02:29 PM // 14:29

OK, so I agree, collisions are good.

But change the relic map so that the stairs are too wide to block, and make it so the Hero can capture the altar as long as he's on it, not just if he's in the center.

Its lame b/c the timer was low, we nuked thier hero though massive healing, and couldnt take the altar b/c they were bunched in the center of the dias.

Aug · Jun 13, 2005, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Bring some skills to interrupt/knockdown, remove enchantments, and then focus fire. They should be killable. If the counter was too low to do all that, perhaps you just need to move on the center sooner?

Lots of teams try to wait till the very end to take the center. Seems like it'd be even worse design if the devs just let you bum rush in the last 30 seconds, kill 1 mob (not even a player) and claim the altar from the very edge while an opposing team had held it throughout the match.

Miridan · Jun 13, 2005, 05:46 PM // 17:46

This was supposed to be a matter of principle rather than a discussion of the particular match, but here it goes....

Map: Courtyard

We had taken the altar right away. Yellow attacked us and we pretty much destroyed them. Then the Savants came in and killed our hero so we had to back off. After rez, we waited while yellow and savants faught, Yellow dies (again) and we charge in with prolly about 2 min left. We kill thier hero in like a min, so we try to cap altar with one min left, but the savants are all crowded in the center of the altar so our hero (though he was on the altar - just not in the center) couldn't take it.

This is clearly unfair, as we had acomplished all "stated" goals, but the Savants were able to use an exploit to win the match.

Aug · Jun 13, 2005, 05:54 PM // 17:54

How is it 'clearly unfair'? You didn't accomplish all the goals. The goal is to capture the Altar. You didn't do that. You seem to have inferred that the goals are a) kill enemy hero, b) stand on altar. Those aren't the goals. The goal is to have your hero standing in the center of the Altar, with no others.

I'd say your 'goals' are more unfair than the one that currently exists. It'd be pretty stupid if you had been able to capture the Altar. Killing 1 AI controlled NPC isn't too difficult.

If you hadn't waited until the last 2 minutes to attack, maybe you'd have had enough time to take the center. With your goals, there'd be little reason for anyone to fight until the last 2 minutes, as claiming the center would be trivial. It'd just be a race to see who could eliminate the other team's heros the fastest.

Dreamsmith · Jun 13, 2005, 06:23 PM // 18:23

"Waa! Someone used a strategy that allowed them to win instead of me! It must be an exploit!"

Blocking is good strategy. If it cost you the win, it's because the enemy team was better at the game than you are.

Exploits are things like slipping through closed doors. Good strategy that allows a team to win where they would have otherwise lost is not an exploit, it's just superior gameplay.

Lady Leara · Jun 13, 2005, 08:25 PM // 20:25

#1 is an exploit, but #2... I mean come on. If you got your self trapped, you deserved it (I dont know how to say it any nicer than that). There are alot of ways out before you get your self trap, and it's a strategy not an exploit. I like having body blocking, it's not like any other online game out there where I can just run through people to get out. Require thinking ahead.

EDIT: Actually after reading and thinking a bit, I think it would be nice to be able to run through a 'Knocked' down person. I think that addition would be great.

Miridan · Jun 13, 2005, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Ya I realize it might be a bit whiny, but still, I don't think that crowding all of your players in the center of an altar at the last second should determine a win.

If, say, we held the altar and had not crowded into the center the other team would have won - WITHOUT KILLING ANY PLAYERS. So the objective logically differed from the rules is not to kill other players - and so therefore the objective is to get the hero onto the altar (come on, this is what you need to do to win).

What I'm angry about is that we met all the conditions for a win - we killed thier hero, brought ours safely to the altar (while under fire from two teams) and simply because the other team was crowding in the middle they won. Maybe if they made the altar smaller, so that they were blocking the hero OFF the altar I would be happy. But we had him on so I think that it should count...

BTW I like the run by knock-down idea. That would give some balance and just be cool.

Perishiko ReLLiK · Jun 14, 2005, 04:47 AM // 04:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miridan

I'm now gonna harp about two PvP expliots that are commonly used to unfaily gain an advantage.

#1 - Everyone knows that in the 1v1 map if you wait to kill the last person until right after the hall has been won, you can go straight to the hall without fighting your way there. This is very irritating not only for the people who have fought thier way to the hall, but also the poor soul who is last to be killed. Plz fix, ArenaNet.

#2 - Characters can block using thier bodies - this was used against us with spirits and players preventing our relic runner from obtaining a relic, and thus costing us a match. Also this was used by our very own Idiot Savants guild when they fought our guild, Purgatory Syndicate - they bunched up in the center of the altar and prevented our ghostly hero from taking it. Not only should you be able to move past characters and spirits, but the hero should be able to take the altar from anywhere on the altar, not just in the center.

Just venting my fustration.

Well, #1 is partly an exploit, but a smart soul would just run up to the ghostly hero and commit suicide... or leave the game (Gee, that's tough thinking)

And #2 is just plain old strategy... yep, how about you start using it too, and then you won't have to complain?... pug(pick up groups) normaly won't use such things, and sometimes wont even with the ever famed "Vent/ts"... as people with strong opinions will always do what they want, even when told something else.

Can a human move through a wall? Should creatures act like ghosts? No, no they shouldnt.

*might i mention that a simple windborne speed + knockdown spells to stop them from forming a blocking wall can help you succeed in relic runs*

*king of the hill = always kill the opposing team first, or at least enough to capture the middle... pft... not to mention earthquake + meteor shower spammed on the ghostly hero also stops him from capturing it... (Anybody know if interuption spells/arrows work against him capturing it?)*

This guy there · Jun 14, 2005, 06:51 AM // 06:51

1 is bad agreed.

2. is strategy. Ward against foes and the iron mist = 50% slow and 90% slow... your not capping that thing with those going..

Yotian · Jun 14, 2005, 09:15 AM // 09:15

#1 agree, an exploit
#2 disagree ( but one thing i agree ) since ghostly hero is a ghosts he should be able to capture altar even though there is collision is in game since he is a "ghost" after all, since someone stated does humans stop in the wall yes. but ghosts dont, but thats as far as i go i dont want the collision to be removed only to modified match the "ghost" factor, It would be only fair, if you dont want to make it atleast so that it will ignore collision after the enemy ghostly hero is defeated and hes ready to take the altar. Also spirits are as in ghosts also, or correct me if i am wrong spirit a dead beeings soul, or just a plain soul.

Nefser · Jun 14, 2005, 09:53 AM // 09:53

Do we want to get into a discussion of what a 'ghost' should/shouldn't be able to do in a virtual game world? I think not.

However, the more likely elements to discuss are a) blocking and b) win condition(s).

Blocking: Valid tactic. Can be used both to help and hinder.

Win condition: Hero at centre of dais.(1) Makes sense to me.

(1)It's not 'Hero can see the altar'. Nor is it 'Hero can lean over and touch the steps leading up to the platform.'. It also is not 'Hero is up the stairs and one of his feet in on the dais.'. And the most definitive one it is not: 'Hero is up on top with both feet and good amount of health, but there are a bunch of people standing in his way so he can't get there. But perhaps if he scrunches down and then slides his left leg forward a bit like when playing twister he could touch...'. No, non of those are what you need. If they blocked your Hero at the bottom of the stairs would you complain? If he was blocked coming out of the initial starting area? When if ever, isn't blocking fair? Or are we living in a virtual world of etherial people?

In game announcement: "Sorry, you did not meet the win condition - you have lost. In future, we highly recommend you kill any players interfering with your Hero in order for him to move unimpeded to the centre of the dais. Thank you for playing.".

Miridan · Jun 14, 2005, 01:16 PM // 13:16

OK im not gonna talk this to death - I've made my point. I just say he's on the alter 100% with both legs, he should be able to cap it. Your right - a block somewhere else wouldn't have irked me. Also interesting point about ghostly heros and moving through walls - I;d never considered that...

Makarei · Jun 14, 2005, 02:27 PM // 14:27

This is alittle off the topic, but does however fit in the threads title.

Last night i found a new exploit, At the riverside provence. Where the player has to kill the boss before crossing the bridge. near the end of the road near the two towers. Heres the exploit, or bug as you would call it. just walk up next to him on the left side and touch the bridge. You skip straight to the film clip without having to fight him. :-D

deathwearer · Jun 14, 2005, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by toastgodsupreme

#2, you nuke them. If everyone is together, throw some aoes and chaos storms.

I mean really, there's a counter to it.

like he said for #2

and for #1 oh well... haven't done it, but they should remove the display message that x team won HoH when your in the arena ( fighting ) that should fix it.