Curse

dogbreath17 · Jun 13, 2005, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Fundamentally the heart of the game might be flawed. It has to be dealt with I think. Basically you have a pve game tagged on to a pvp centric game. What’s annoying to the player base is that no particular group is happy.

PvE content probably wanted:
1. Able to gain levels beyond lvl 20.
2. Able to get better gear and items
3. Able to get skills at levels 30, 40, 50
4. Level cap should prob be around 50
5. Raise the monster dmg around Draknors and up, not just fissure and UW or at least create a few more high level spawning areas that require groups of 8
6. Make really rare items, and unique items able to drop
7. More armors and weapon selection
8. Auction/trading house
9. There needs to be a economy
10. PvEers want to build their characters over time and reap the rewards for time invested

PvPer content probably wanted:
1. Unlock all skills now, all runes now, all weapon upgrades now, all armor now
2. More Fleshed out Guilds for battles and pvp
3. More pvp with tangible rewards
4. Recognition for fighting and gaining fame for self and guild
5. 1vs1 and other options

If one was to attempt to ballpark the numbers one could say of the 100% of players, probably 35% are hardcore PvEers and 35% are hardcore PvPers, with 30% enjoying both.

As it is now the hardcore PvPers have to do PvE which just makes them mad.

All this complaining from both sides exposes its most fundamental flaw and weakness. This weakness is that it is trying to appease two opposing groups at once.

I know I am tired of all the complaining. I also know I don’t look forward to the future.

The future as I have read involves an expansion with new areas, new skills, and new items. This expansion will require you to purchase it to remain competitive in pvp. This expansion will be pve that will require pvpers to pve for the new skills and items. Both of these are bound to cause even more complaints.

As it is now:
There is no reason to farm; there is no reason to trade. There is no reason to level a toon past level 20. PvE serves to only provide the equivalent of a singleplayer rgp of which most can complete in a month.

PvP for most people:
Random groups with strangers for no reward or HOH but many don’t have the time for HOH with a dedicated guild or perhaps don’t have the class that is highly sought. PvP as it is now is Elementalist for damage, Mesmer for shutdown, Monks for healing. Its practically all caster based. Rangers, Warriors, and other builds/classes can fall into the shutdown category but are second to last at being picked. Soon I feel in PvP it will be nothing but these 3 classes. How long can PvP sustain itself with 3 classes with UAS, UAWU, UAR?

I think the longevity of the game requires and needs separation of pvp and pve. Both need to be fleshed out. Both need separate rewards and options.

The reason you cant have both at once is many pvpers will never be happy unless they have to do zero pve. PvEers will never be happy unless they have long-term goals to build their characters too. The game currently does neither correctly.

Allowing UAS, UAR, UAWU and then allowing a character to fight with pve characters nullifies pve investment. Not only that but should a "insta 20" be allowed in same arena with a 75+ hour character? It cheapens the engagement. However requiring pvpers to unlock said things only keeps them from doing what they ultimately want to be doing.

Diminishing drops, no trading, lack of need for long-term building of a character destroys the potential for a MMORPG or online game.

Right now we have a pvp game with prerequisite pve. The way I see it is the game designers want to keep both groups as one for whatever reason. They want to force pvpers to play pve to some extent. They are so concerned with keeping pvp competitive even for the guy who plays minimally that they are making pve other than the story/unlocking practically meaningless.

As it is right now you can level one pve character to level 20, switch professions and unlock more skills and they are moving toward pvp fame allowing ability to unlock skills. The result is there is no reason to have more than one pve character to unlock all the skills, item upgrades that you need.

With pvp characters and unlocked upgrades you can make any character instantly that you want. I imagine in the top guilds this could mean one dedicated pve character, one dedicated pvp character and two characters that are floaters and able to be changed and adjusted as needed. That’s 3 characters dedicated to pvp.

But if the game is so pvp centric and that’s the ultimate design goal then where is the reward? Someone suggested guildhall upgrades. I wonder what upgrades and for what.
Regardless the fact we have these questions and this stage in the game just shows how immature the game really is in development. These things should have been fleshed out earlier. As it is now no one knows.

If you are interested in pve you have no reason to buy 15k armor, there are no special benefits. You have no interest to farm, for you can get near best items from collectors with minimal effort. There is not much reason to level past 20 for there are no items, armor, or weapons available that will greatly augment your character.

If pvp is where the game is going it should just perhaps forgo the story and need of pvpers to pve and just make everyone a template to use or templates to choose from with best gear. The available benefits from pve are neglible at best.

Give everyone a guildhall to fight for and defend and allow non guildies the chance to show allegiance to a city perhaps. The longevity of this game is about one month in depth then it quickly unravels, however the possibilities are endless because development is at such an early stage. In two years there might be a game here.

Now if they keep the game the way it is and make the expansion require pvpers to unlock more skills and runes and weapon upgrades to remain competive in pvp expect a big outcry. People will have to pay money to keep their guild up to best ability and everyone will need the expansion and pvpers will pve for a month then it will disappear for 5 months.

PvEers will perhaps get the expansion get the new items, new armor, new runes then after a month have nothing to do for 5 months for pve.

Guildhalls will be expanded, get upgrades, require “what” gold, tribute, who knows and for what, who knows? Why even.

The developers really need to come out and let the fan base the PvPers and PvEers know what to expect or look forward too. The expansion by my assessment of current community spirit however will not be to favorable.

Obviously they need to make an option with character creation, rpg only and pvp only. The PvEers then can get more levels up to 50 or whatever get unique titles, recognition, armor, items, and rewards. The PvPers need likewise.

Two truly different games in one, and everyone can be happy. If they keep it the way it is its going to be a bastard of a game that will lose half its fan base. The fan base that remains will be pvp oriented and they will not let up till perhaps a year from now when the game goes 100% pvp and everyone is same except for skill selection.

Master Gunner · Jun 13, 2005, 10:54 PM // 22:54

to help with UAS/UAR maybe they could make it so that after a PvP victory they could unlock 1 skill and/or 1 minor or major rune, and if they win in the HoH they can onlock superiour runes.

Ninna · Jun 13, 2005, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by dogbreath17

What’s annoying to the player base is that no particular group is happy.

PvE content probably wanted:
1. Able to gain levels beyond lvl 20.
.

speak for yourself

I'm very happy with level 20

I do not want a level increase

ManadartheHealer · Jun 13, 2005, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Gunner

to help with UAS/UAR maybe they could make it so that after a PvP victory they could unlock 1 skill and/or 1 minor or major rune, and if they win in the HoH they can onlock superiour runes.

After each team or guild win they should be able to unlock one non-elite skill or a minor rune or a major rune. If they win HoH, they get an elite AND a superior rune.

If they choose rune, they get a random rune (ones possible for them to use)

MasterQu · Jun 13, 2005, 11:23 PM // 23:23

I agree whole heartedly in upping your charecter beyond level 20. The creatators in Guild Wars have hinted at answering that. In the last interview where they talk about Observer mode they hint that higher levels will be possible with expansion packs. "Expansion packs will include more story content, skills, weapons etc.." One thing I have kept asking myself since Guild Wars has hit the market is " how can they make money if the online is free?" Well expansion packs are the answer. They also sadi that features will always be free ie: observer mode. But if you want more you are going to have to pay for it.

-mind you this is my interpretation of what I read-

Adaria · Jun 13, 2005, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Indeed, I'm happy with level 20 cap right now, and the fact we gain skill points for every XP bar we fill after that.

There is a huge selection of weapons to chose from and upgrades, the only thing I'd like to see is some specialty Wands like there are bows, swords, axes, hammers and staves. There aren't any really cool 'kickass' wands, just Truncheon, Holy Rod, Fire Wand, Air Wand, Water Wand, Earth Wand. No one handed wands that look totally awesome. Just staves like the ghostly/eternal/Raven, etc.

dogbreath17 · Jun 13, 2005, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Master Gunner said:

Quote:

to help with UAS/UAR maybe they could make it so that after a PvP victory they could unlock 1 skill and/or 1 minor or major rune, and if they win in the HoH they can onlock superiour runes.

This would move the game more into the realm of two separate games. They might as well just tag characters and go the whole way. However if they do decide to create a separate realm for pvpers some device [UAS,UAR,UAWU] or through pvp victories will have to be implemented.

However your approach could be looked upon as a concession of sorts. So what are we saying, we still want pvpers to earn skills? Are we saying it’s a reward?

What group are we addressing, the hardcore PvEers or hardcore PvPers? PvEers don’t care how PvPers get their skills but they sure as heck don’t wont to be fighting “insta 20’s” either with UAS,UAR,UAWU. Does this alleviate the problem if we get pvpers to receive skills and runes through PvP? What’s the goal?

Equality? There will never be equality between a 75+ hour character and an “insta 20” character hence the need for separate realms as I stated plus the other obvious reasons in that your not addressing any of the PvE concerns.

Your whole post is an attempt to suggest a way for PvPers to earn things. Hardcore PvPers don’t want to earn anything, mostly. Its all about skills, your skill in playing your character.

It’s a bandaid suggestion that neither alleviates nor addresses any of the fundamental issues but one that could prove as a method of acquisition in a solely pvp realm. Adding it to the existing game serves no purpose but to more completely nullify pve.

Loviatar · Jun 13, 2005, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterQu

they hint that higher levels will be possible with expansion packs. "Expansion packs will include more story content, skills, weapons etc.."
-mind you this is my interpretation of what I read-

and here is the Anet direct statement not an interpretation

Almost all of the content in the game and in the future Chapters is only available to Ascended characters, which means we don't have to worry about providing different levels of content. All the good stuff will be available to everyone. It's not our intent to force people onto the levelling up treadmill, so the level cap in Guild Wars is almost meaningless

did you note the single level of content

Nim · Jun 13, 2005, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Your leaving out the PvE&P community, the ones who's main goal is to develop PvP chars through PvE.

theclam · Jun 13, 2005, 11:58 PM // 23:58

A lvl50 cap would ruin half the things that make Guild Wars unique. Higher levels for the sake of higher levels is a bad thing. Character advancement is about getting more capabilities, not just bumping a few stats up. You can add new capabilities through new skills, rather than through a higher level.

Quote:

Equality? There will never be equality between a 75+ hour character and an “insta 20” character hence the need for separate realms as I stated plus the other obvious reasons in that your not addressing any of the PvE concerns.

Of course they're not equal, but they're close enough so that someone who plays for 20 hours can beat a character who plays for 200 hours, if he has the skill and strategy to win. In any other online RPG, that isn't true.

Give GW some time. It's only been out for a few months and it takes a long time to make content.

dogbreath17 · Jun 14, 2005, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Ninna said:

Quote:

I'm very happy with level 20

Adaria said:

Quote:

Indeed, I'm happy with level 20 cap right now, and the fact we gain skill points for every XP bar we fill after that.

Loviatar provided Anet direct statement:

Quote:

Almost all of the content in the game and in the future Chapters is only available to Ascended characters, which means we don't have to worry about providing different levels of content. All the good stuff will be available to everyone. It's not our intent to force people onto the levelling up treadmill, so the level cap in Guild Wars is almost meaningless

I say:
Being able to level beyond 20 is only mentioned in three of the ten possible areas which could be expanded in GW for pve by me. Call if fluff or whatever, I dont know rpg creaminess but other things could be implemented to indicate a higher level with no other benefits than perhaps a new skill or title. Everyone could still be happy to be considered level 20.

Its that rpg's tend to have something associated with time invested to recognize those that have invested heavily in their characters. Its nothing more than the reason people buy 15k armor to separate themselves from those that have not.

It doesnt have to be levels we already get the skill points, it could be a piece of armor, a unique dye, a title, a helm a shield something. Its fluff, but rpgers like that stuff. Its not a new concept. The game actually does it anyway with new skill points.

RPGers are about building characters over a long period of time and investing alot of time in them to make them distinct and powerful. PvPers are about kills vs deaths.

Its the aggravating situation of having two different worlds combined in one game that satisfies neither completely that we are even having this dicussion.

It will not be beyond Anet to further design a situation of gaming mechanics which further forces pvpers to pve.

How about:

Quote:

Almost all of the content in the game and in the future Chapters is only available to Ascended characters, which means we don't have to worry about providing different levels of content.

All they simply have to do is make it so only ascended primaries can get the "NEW" elites of that primary.

Regardless the game is flawed for the majority of the fanbase and its painfully in its beginning stages of development and instead of playing we are discussing game mechanics. Woohoo. It currently satisfies neither camp and shows no direction of attempting too.

Currenty GW is a singleplayer RPG of 75-100 hours depending on how much you enjoy scenery. At level 20 game is over, mostly for pve. You could start another character and play 75-100 hours or not. Or you could skill hunt with your primary and make a "insta 20" pvper.

How is that suppost to keep people busy. Most people will knock the expansion out in a month. PvP pure PvP cant sustain this game in its current form and nobody knows what future PvP holds either.

Thats why I suggest a expansion of "rpg" and expansion of "pvp" inside the current game.

This is stickiness:
PvE content probably wanted:
1. Able to gain levels beyond lvl 20.
2. Able to get better gear and items
3. Able to get skills at levels 30, 40, 50
4. Level cap should prob be around 50
5. Raise the monster dmg around Draknors and up, not just fissure and UW or at least create a few more high level spawning areas that require groups of 8
6. Make really rare items, and unique items able to drop
7. More armors and weapon selection
8. Auction/trading house
9. There needs to be a economy
10. PvEers want to build their characters over time and reap the rewards for time invested

It creates a community.

This is also stickiness:
PvPer content probably wanted:
1. Unlock all skills now, all runes now, all weapon upgrades now, all armor now
2. More Fleshed out Guilds for battles and pvp
3. More pvp with tangible rewards
4. Recognition for fighting and gaining fame for self and guild
5. 1vs1 and other options

It creates a community.

The current game design and philosophy so far prevalent in GW suggests neither the ability or inclination to address either group.

Anyone I will leave my original post for as it stands, with no more replys. I dont think this game is going to make it because pve is consistently downgraded in importance and only proves as a nuisance to pvpers.

I believe the state of GW indicates the fan base that remains will be pvp oriented and they will not let up till perhaps a year from now when the game goes 100% pvp and everyone is same except for the skills they choose.

Its aggravating because the game could be so much more, but from a design stand point a UAS,UAR,UAWU button is alot easier than designing new armor and coming up with tangible meaningful player content.

ManadartheHealer · Jun 14, 2005, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterQu

-mind you this is my interpretation of what I read-

Good, because more story content does not mean more levels to characters. It means more missions...

Numa Pompilius · Jun 14, 2005, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by dogbreath17

PvE content probably wanted:
1. Able to gain levels beyond lvl 20.
2. Able to get better gear and items
3. Able to get skills at levels 30, 40, 50

I'm PvE exclusively, and I want none of that, especially not infinite levels. I'm quite happy with things the way they are, I'd just like more story and more exporable map.
If I wanted a treadmill, I'd buy a stairmaster.

Your PvP recommendations seem reasonable.

Iteicea Destroidium · Jun 14, 2005, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by dogbreath17

As it is now the hardcore PvPers have to do PvE which just makes them mad.

Umm...I dont know how many MMO's you have played, but almost every single one has required you to use PvE in leveling up your character to the point of being able to compete in PvP.

Sir Skullcrasher · Jun 14, 2005, 02:00 AM // 02:00

the higher the level, the more grind needed to level up higher to get more skills.

eA-Zaku · Jun 14, 2005, 02:08 AM // 02:08

I have a very easy explanation for your lengthy post:

You can't please everyone. It is not the game that is flawed, but the differences in preferences and taste among players that causes the problems.

Iteicea Destroidium · Jun 14, 2005, 02:11 AM // 02:11

exactly Zaku! We see all these threads full of complaints...but we all have to remember that ANet goes off of the majority and does what they feel will please us, and no matter what, you will have people who find a negative side to what you do.

Sir Skullcrasher · Jun 14, 2005, 02:19 AM // 02:19

i know this is Guild Wars forum but tell me one game out there is the market right now, that is free of bugs and people keep playing it and haven't got bore of it.

Look at game like Half Life 2, DOOM 3, WoW, Splinter Cell: CT, and other.
Non of these game are bugs free nor are they keep people entertain that long. For example, HL 2, game was great, really great visual but lacking in depth in sense of more enemies and more level and better plot.

GW is by far more entertaining (for me that is) and i guess i haven't got bored of this game because i only play few hours per weeks. I might play 6 or 10 hours a weeksl, and I don't seems to care what part A-net do to improve either PvE or PvP. As long as the game content and quest are not repeative, i'll keep playing this game.

eventhorizen · Jun 14, 2005, 02:38 AM // 02:38

The last 5 games iv bought, iv played once, then shelved. One was WoW.

The only other MMOG iv sunk as much time into as GW is Eve Online. No levels in Eve whatsoever, the ratio of boring time consuming inanity to PvP? Could be 100 to 1.

Seriously, Guild Wars is FUN. If your groaning at having to do a particular thing in Guild Wars then dont do it. You DONT HAVE TO HAVE EVERYTHING in order to PvP. You might have to have everything to be the king of all guild wars players, but thats different, thats other people your competing against and not the game.

Guild Wars is one of the very few, imo, where its still fun, even if its not the absolute high end of gameplay your doing.

I like it, quite a lot. Its not perfect, but its superior to everything else in terms of lag, graphics, complexity of combat. etc. etc.

Why do people continue to whine? Have you played Eve recently? 100 hours to lose a fight so you need to invest another 100 hours of doing nothing, with one of the most bugged and laggy enviroments around.

Have you played WoW recently? Mission based leveling fest, with limited social interaction or played created content, almost no real challanging PvP. Very uncomplex, more of a contest for kiddies with cartoon graphics.

Guild Wars is not meant to be a game where all the content is available for anyone after the login screen. The essence of all role playing themed games has always been exploration and discovery. Content has to be discovered, and if this equals grind then im sorry for you.
Albeit the very dedicated players are finding playing through the entire game for the umpteenth time since release can be a bit repetitive, but then A.Net have been addressing that havnt they? Rune traders and the SoC alterations which IMO incourages gold farming at the expense of defeating challanging monsters. But that was your wish wasnt it?

All in all this game is one of the very very best this year, will be a benchmark other mmo's look to, and is a game i find very very enjoyable, and even if its only slightly, it does change constantly.

So please, for the last time, stfu. Most people love Guild Wars, and admit its not perfect but its very good.

primal98 · Jun 14, 2005, 03:06 AM // 03:06

I wish this whole level cap complaining would go away... yes Id like it to be gone... but I can live. What I would rather see is more items, all I trade these days is:

Gold for Tanned Hides
Other Materials for Gold

I REALLY wish there was more variation to items

~prime