Curse

arredondo · Jun 20, 2005, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perishiko ReLLiK

This "grind" word i see over and over in these guild wars threads need to be torn to shreads. If you took a year to make a character, that's a grind. If you took four hours to barely gain 5% of that next lvl, then it's a grind. If you're waiting for one monster to respawn, being bored out of your mind, then it's a grind. When it takes a full month just to try and get so-so pvp items, then it's a grind. Guild wars is none of the above, and if you played through the missions, which more then likely take only about 1-3 months at the most, for an average player. You'll then have a max dmg weapon, and max armor, and alot of skills that can be used for countless combo's in pvp creations (in which you don't have to make a new character, you can start at 20!!)

My definition of grind is simple and logical. It's being forced to do what you've already done for the benefit of enjoying a separate, unrelated game mode to its fullest. If you have to win 20 PvP matches just to get a Signet of Capture for your elites in PvE, that is an unecessary grind for PvE'ers. If you had to fight 100 PvP battles to gain access to a whole new area in PvE, that would be a needless grind for the PvE'ers.

Such is the case for the discrimination of PvP players who are accepting to go through all of PvE once for a hundred hours (even though PvE players can ignore PvP for a hundred hours), but more than that is needless grind, grind, grind for the purpose of full PvP access. It is NOT a grind for those who WANT to go through PvE 3-4 times. They can be rewarded with their character and uniquely designed items and costumes (same stats though) being available in PvE or PvP. For All-access PvP made characters, only PvP is available in this version and future expansions.

arredondo · Jun 20, 2005, 04:10 AM // 04:10

For the record, I couldn't bring myself to screw over a UW PUG like that. So instead I worked on my farming techniques to figure out the latest patch changes, and once again I've got my system down pat. In 15 minutes I can easily get my 24 points, and in that hour of farming practice I pulled off four blues, a bunch of white, a lot of money, and one Gold item. If anyone cares to know, all mobs drop stuff everytime unlike before when SOME people (not me) came up dry after PvE battles.

I've no need to collect more junk so I'll only farm when I have to, (like to get Att points). Still, it's pretty funny to me that everytime they try to stop farming I'm able to adjust and continue doing it with no problem. Let us regain all Attribute points in a town, and I'd probably never farm again.

Wiredzero · Jun 20, 2005, 04:17 AM // 04:17

Another PvP player whining about the UAS. *yawn*

One, it's a game they designed with replayability. And with the more you play it, the more you'll unlock, the more skills you'll have to work with. Why spend time crying about it, and go enjoy the full aspects of the game.

Besides, each character type you play through the game...you have a better understanding of it's role and how to play it. Thus making those skills you UNLOCK, more effective because you'll know how to use them and when.

Zeru · Jun 20, 2005, 04:41 AM // 04:41

If you think GW is about grind, playing for better items to have an edge over others, or playing a long drawn out pve game to acquire super awesome stats and equipment, you're playing the wrong game. GW is not just 'another mmonrpg without a monthly fee.'

To put it bluntly GW pve is not very good. I beat the game my first time around in less than week, with <40 hours. I've since spent another 250 hours trying to get myself pvp ready and I definitely am not near that. I've explored a good deal of the EAs and done the WaW areas but they don't take nearly as long as pvp prep and are over pretty fast. Obviously, the only thing left is to a) shelve gw till an expansion comes out or b) play pvp unless you get satisfaction playing a rote game over and over again.

If you think there's no grind, you're either oblivious, not trying to play competitive pvp, or very biased. Yeah, GW doesn't require as much time to get pvp ready as eq or wow or whatever. Who cares, GW is not any of those games and is not meant to be like any of them. Making those comparisons is simply stupid and a way of covering up the fact that you have no good reasons to keep screwing non-alpha/beta pvp players (the ones who got everything before the nerfs started).

Unlocking items/runes/skills for pvp after beating the game once does not harm pve gameplay. I am very against a UAS/UAR/UAWM but even they are better than meaningless grind which is put in for completely illogical reasons.

pvp is the real content of this game as the pve game is so short for online games. It really is a pity that pvp has not gotten a tenth of the attention it should :-/

I keep thinking that the concept of GW's equal opportunity pve/pvp play about strategy rather than equipment and levels is too hard for the current generation of online rpgers to handle. Maybe their ideals are just too ahead of their time.

Spark · Jun 20, 2005, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Why do the PvEers always feel the need to flame PvP people so much?

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So you can have everything handed to you on a silver platter.

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sigh yet another pvp player who wants to ruin the pve game. Go Play CS if all you want to do is PVP.

Quote:

Another PvP player whining about the UAS. *yawn*

Now, to try and address some actual points:

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Why spend time crying about it, and go enjoy the full aspects of the game.

You did not read what he said. You cannot beat the game once and be done with PvE. You need to beat it 3 times. It is boring to do the same missions again.

Quote:

Besides, each character type you play through the game...you have a better understanding of it's role and how to play it. Thus making those skills you UNLOCK, more effective because you'll know how to use them and when.

So what, are you trying to make sure they know what they are doing? Saving people from themselves? What if you bought it by simply switching their class, maybe we should remove that too! You need to use a skill 100 times in PvE before you can use it in PvP. We can't have people inexperienced you know!

Quote:

Guild wars is none of the above, and if you played through the missions, which more then likely take only about 1-3 months at the most, for an average player.

The problem is playing through the missions, its playing through the missions 3 times. It isn't hard, it's BORING.

I fully support the unlock upon completion of the game. It still forces people to play through PvE, but at no point are they forced to grind (do the same thing over and over again for reason other than enjoyment) and IMO it's the perfect solution.

john little · Jun 20, 2005, 05:28 AM // 05:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spark

You did not read what he said. You cannot beat the game once and be done with PvE. You need to beat it 3 times. It is boring to do the same missions again.

you can beat the game once and be done with it. You don't have to beat the game at all to compete in PvP, it will be tougher but it is an option. I see the skills unlocking in GW like having a deck of cards. You start of with a basic deck that lets you play the game. You then have the option of adding to your deck by doing the PvE, giving you more options for the expense of spending a little time playing the PvE.

You do not need every skill in the game to be competitive in PvP. You do not need every rune either. You can choose to spend time getting/unlocking these but it is most definately a choice. A lot of these rants seem to be more along the lines of 'i suck in PvP and want all skills because that's obviously the reason i'm losing' than anything seriously wrong with the current system of gaining skills.

Kishin · Jun 20, 2005, 05:44 AM // 05:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by john little

you can beat the game once and be done with it. You don't have to beat the game at all to compete in PvP, it will be tougher but it is an option. I see the skills unlocking in GW like having a deck of cards. You start of with a basic deck that lets you play the game. You then have the option of adding to your deck by doing the PvE, giving you more options for the expense of spending a little time playing the PvE.

You do not need every skill in the game to be competitive in PvP. You do not need every rune either. You can choose to spend time getting/unlocking these but it is most definately a choice. A lot of these rants seem to be more along the lines of 'i suck in PvP and want all skills because that's obviously the reason i'm losing' than anything seriously wrong with the current system of gaining skills.

Or maybe they just want all their options open to be able to adapt, adjust and tweak themselves to an everchanging PvP environment, rather than be constrained to being only able to play a very narrow range of archetypes?

Maybe you should take a look at some of the people who have raised complaints about the grind of unlocking. Many of them are members of the top Guilds. I highly doubt they 'suck at pvp' as you have so eloquently pointed out.

What I really want to know though, is why people, in response to these threads, verbally assault PvP players like they're some form of criminal or lower lifeform. Believe it or not, killing mobs instead of people doesn't make someone noble.

Spark · Jun 20, 2005, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Quote:

You don't have to beat the game at all to compete in PvP

How must I phrase it then? I want the ability to develop different 8 person group strategies. Some might require 3 Monks and 5 Elementalists, Some might require 3 monks and 1 of each other class. One might require 4 necromancers. To do this I either need:

A) An immensely large guild/friends list
B) Deal with random pick ups, which can be difficult both for reliability and if you have an off the wall build.
C) Have a dedicated group with lots of skills unlocked.

I am getting very frustrated because it requires not only ME to unlock lots of skills, but 7 of my friends as well.

I want a level playing field, and I want the ability to use strategy both in individual and group builds. Skill points restrict me from having said field and using said strategies.

Louis Ste Colombe · Jun 20, 2005, 08:07 AM // 08:07

I would not like UAS, UAR or whatever.

I like to see "skill unlock". If anything, I'd like PvE to be a bit tougher than it is now, with larger mobs, or higher level mobs.

For PvP, I have played Magic, and would definitly agree that there is no reason for a large pool of skill to defeat a smaller pool, if the smaller pool build is done right.
However, I can understand the adaptibility and metagaming point.
I got mixed feeling on that:
- at some point it's about imposing your strategy and make out the best of what you got. You'd like to have 5 Aero and 3 monks? But your players got lot of rangers and mesmers? well, maybe it's time to do something new then

- I also think that Arena shall give better PvP template, with better abilities distribution, better runes and equipment, better choice of skills (more specialised)... Than the one currently on display. I also think there shall be more variety in those templates. So as to make it possible to be more competitive with "ready to play" PvP characters, even if you unlock nothing. Maybe to add templates as part of the weekly updates?
UAS, I don't like, but making a lot more skills available through competitive, ready made templates, I'd support.

Louis,

sysfailur · Jun 20, 2005, 08:56 AM // 08:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

and how many of those people are accepting you in good faith who may wind up being killed when your staying could have meant the difference.

you are wasting the time of a full group which is why posts like yours are given so little weight

Don't worry as soon as he leaves he's going to miss a 15-28 rare storm bow w/ 15% over 50% :P

Spark · Jun 20, 2005, 10:25 AM // 10:25

Quote:

well, maybe it's time to do something new then

Except what if the builds we can make simply suck. There are some builds with the current metagame that will simply die almost NO MATTER what. A lot of people only have 1 PvE Character...hence 1 PvP character with their skills. Which means we are limited to one build.

No room for creativity.

No room to adapt.

No room to...win.

Quite simply, it has forced me to ignore requsts from guildmates and friends because they don't fit the current build. This is really frustrating to me, and picking up random people always leaves room for the random noob too. I'd like to PvP with people I can trust but I can't because we don't have time to unlock all skills on our own.

silvertemplar · Jun 20, 2005, 11:57 AM // 11:57

Quote:

pvp is the real content of this game as the pve game is so short for online games. It really is a pity that pvp has not gotten a tenth of the attention it should :-/

I agree with the original post. I am in fact still busy with the PvE part, and have only occasionally spend time in the various Arenas [Got 3 chars at about Lvl 18]. So i'd consider myself more a PvE player though, but i can understand the points made. Even my 2nd time through the PvE part felt like a grind, sure it is fast, but still i actually turned on my tv watching a movie while running through hordes of devourers [which gives 0xp mind you] for the umpteenth time, THAT is grind. Now i'm not doing it to unlock skills for PvP [although it is in the back of my mind if i still feel like PvPing afterwards and didnt get tired of mowing down hordes of mobs to change my skills] , I'm purely doing it to get further into the game by ENJOYING it. You start off Mesmer and realise at Lions Arch it's not really "fun" for PvE [nevermind the fact that it is clearly not intended to be truly for PvE] and you restart with Elem, then you seriously start to feel the grind.

The times i went into the Arena, i quickly realised my PvE skills which i used "over-and-over" do not work in PvP [and sadly vice versa too], so first thing you do is swop around skills and attribs. This is also ironically the first place where i found out i only have a limited amount of these. It certainly annoyed me when i was "gimped" for an entire mission and a few quests only to get my points back into my original setting [and this is for PvE, not for PvP]. You really start to become very conservative with experimentation both in PvP and PvE [which is very sad]. I mean, really, you got over a 50+ skills and you are penalized for trying various combinations.

The irony is, people are constantly referring to GuildWars as PvP/Action RPG/Not-an-MMORPG , but yet in the same breath those same people complain about the lack of "customization" , the cost of dyes, how the game do not offer enough social activity and how you MUST jump through various hoops to "unlock" skills/gear/whatever to get to what everyone says the game is ultimately about: PvP

All those features are MMORPG. Either it is one or it isn't, you can't have some blend and expect not to bring some of the "cons" of MMORPG across as well.

Then again, this game reminds me of Magic: The Gathering alot. So i can suggest something for the PvP part of the game:

You do not have to jump through hoops to get your Magic Cards [generally just need to win and have alot of luck when buying a deck , right?]. Why not use same principle?
You unlock skills by winning matches. WHAT you unlock is dependent on who you play against [you can't win a card the other person don't have]. If you play against a bunch of noobs, you will only get noob skills in return. This is how i think where things can blend. Some skills you only get in PvE, you can either go get it yourself, or you can win someone that did and brought the skill with him into PvP ...almost like knowledge transfer [i would expect a balance factor to prevent abuse etc]. Signet of Capture jumps to mind here.

Add to that a means of randomly unlocking skills as well, heck make the PvPers do some crazy Survivor style deathmatch over and over and "maybe" unlock a skill you want. [If you are there for PvP then whether it takes 20 hours to unlock a skill should be secondary to the fact that you are indeed PvPing to do so].

Hell think Unreal Tournament , if you are there for PvP, would you rather go farming endlessly [PvE style] or play a lengthy PvP tournament to achieve the same results? I would think tournament would come out on top.

Simply put: Let PvE people farm and do things the "grinding" way, let PvP do it the PvP way. That way, anyone can decide for themselves how exactly they want to get their attrib points/skills/skill points. PvE will be a more "Certain" but "long-winded/boring" way [unless first time] PvP will be unpredictable but more exciting for PvP [you might loose all the time and never get the skill].

Loviatar · Jun 20, 2005, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

And the $million$ dollar question that your type always ignore, how would YOU feel if the situation was reversed?

as one of *that type* i will give you an answer

an exact mirrior image would be during the BWE we had level 20 rpg character decked out templates to use starting at Lions Arch

the exact reversal mirrior image of what you are saying is use the rpg template but earn any upgrades in pvp or settle for what you have now.

note that you will die more easily and have a harder time exploring if you dont upgrade but that is your choice

take what is basically serviceable
upgrade some
or spend a lot of time grinding in pvp

i personally would take what the template offered and then possibly do some upgrading

most would happily take their favorite template and have fun with it and only a few would go the full upgrade route by choice

it is an honestly different mindset

but there is your mirrior image answer and it has to BE a mirrior image and not a variation for the comparison

side note

have you noticed the complete absence of people taking away their rpg template characters?

Kishin · Jun 20, 2005, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

as one of *that type* i will give you an answer

an exact mirrior image would be during the BWE we had level 20 rpg character decked out templates to use starting at Lions Arch

the exact reversal mirrior image of what you are saying is use the rpg template but earn any upgrades in pvp or settle for what you have now.

note that you will die more easily and have a harder time exploring if you dont upgrade but that is your choice

take what is basically serviceable
upgrade some
or spend a lot of time grinding in pvp

i personally would take what the template offered and then possibly do some upgrading

most would happily take their favorite template and have fun with it and only a few would go the full upgrade route by choice

it is an honestly different mindset

but there is your mirrior image answer and it has to BE a mirrior image and not a variation for the comparison

side note

have you noticed the complete absence of people taking away their rpg template characters?

This is an entirely different situation and has almost no bearing on this topic. If PvP players were reduced to playing a pre-established template (most of which, by the way, are horrible) and then only upgraded or altered it slightly, the environment would stagnant, innumerous variations or combinations would be rendered moot, and PvP would degenerate into class based nonsense.

I'm not surprised by the idea that PvE only players would be content with taking an existing template and only changing one or two aspects about it, as that's what goes on in most other online games. At least in Guild Wars there's the potential that 2 War/Mos or 2 Necro/Mos are specced and set up completely different from one another.

Honestly, I don't think enough PvE players understand the PvP environment and the fact that exists in a constant state of flux enough to be capable of talking about not 'needing' to have everything at your fingertips to play a build that fits your play style, design or team. Fixation is death in that situation.

Loviatar · Jun 20, 2005, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kishin

Honestly, I don't think enough PvE players understand the PvP environment and the fact that exists in a constant state of flux enough to be capable of talking about not 'needing' to have everything at your fingertips to play a build that fits your play style, design or team. Fixation is death in that situation.

actually i was literally taking a what if the shoe was reversed (which he brought up not me) and giving an answer as to how i (my type) would respond to the same limitations of templates.

and i did get to play with my choice of pre rolled level 20 templates during beta for role players

as i said it is a different mindset and i would not have made the post except as an answer

Heretics Fork · Jun 21, 2005, 12:34 AM // 00:34

OMG I can't believe how much people whine cuz they actually have to EARN their skills. I'm sorry that most of you seem too lazy to go and play the game to earn it. You act like you're the only one targeted, everyone else has to also. Also I don't see how refund points are a problem. What do you do that you're always out? How hard is it to go get more XP?

I'm really appreciative of all the aspects guild wars has brought to the table. If you're going to whine the whole time you play it, why not go play something else?

Anarchist_Monk · Jun 21, 2005, 03:11 AM // 03:11

Dude Arred, if anything Anet is supporting PvP more than PvE. And another thing, Stick with 1 build or maybe 2 and don't put ur attribute points into 6 different things. Stick with like a max of 3 and you will never have a problem. As for you having to leach off of other players, that is pathetic! You don't even deserve to complain if you can't play right in the first place. Don't suggest something unless you actually know how to play the game.

arredondo · Jun 21, 2005, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heretics Fork

OMG I can't believe how much people whine cuz they actually have to EARN their skills. I'm sorry that most of you seem too lazy to go and play the game to earn it. You act like you're the only one targeted, everyone else has to also. Also I don't see how refund points are a problem. What do you do that you're always out? How hard is it to go get more XP?

I'm really appreciative of all the aspects guild wars has brought to the table. If you're going to whine the whole time you play it, why not go play something else?

You just found out that in the expansion pack that in order to access each of the 20 missions, you must first win 100 PvP matches against 100 dfferent teams EACH TIME. And, starting from scratch with a character, you can only have your skills doled out after every 50 wins or so. How do you react? Do you promise "not to whine cuz you actually have to EARN your skills"?

Do you still feel the same when you realize that while you have to play PvP to enjoy all of PvE's content, you find out that the PvP players can do everything, 100% (with wins), in their preferred side of the game, that they don't need to go to PvE at all? So how do you react?

arredondo · Jun 21, 2005, 03:59 AM // 03:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anarchist_Monk

And another thing, Stick with 1 build or maybe 2 and don't put ur attribute points into 6 different things. Stick with like a max of 3 and you will never have a problem.

Ladies and gentlemen reading this thread, this poster may very well be a great guy, but the absolute ABSURDITY of his suggestion alone proves my point here. Have you ever even played anything competitvely? It's a serious question (my sister never wanted to).

Why don't I just stick with bread and water for food, seeing as how it gets all complicated choosing a variety of meals. I'm sorry amigo, but you can't possibly believe what you just wrote. I'll just believe you misspoke and move on, because if that's Arena.net's solution to us creative types that want to experiment, they won't last long with respect to the online multi-player crowd.

Can you imagine a Counter Strike cafe patron talking to his teammates before a battle challenge.... "Hey guys, go on and start without me, I gotta friggin' grind in Half-Life 2 for an hour or so to get some Att. Points back to fix up my build." Or grinding in checkers to play chess. Or grinding in Candy Land to roll the dice in Monopoly. Or even to grind in geometry questions to qualify for a spelling bee. Why go out of the competitive element to do something unrelated to the task at hand, just so you can continue with what should stand on it's own? Before you answer, remember the theme of this post:

PvE stands completely on it's own for those who wish to ignore PvP, so why not the opposite?

Quote:

As for you having to leach off of other players, that is pathetic! You don't even deserve to complain if you can't play right in the first place. Don't suggest something unless you actually know how to play the game.

As I wrote above, I couldn't bring myself to do it despite my frustrations with the unecessary rigid system... case closed. So, you must have bright ideas for us to easily slave off our Att. Point deficit, right? Tell me it's not just to stick with three lines and be happy. I'm all ears for anyone to help us. I can't even farm it off right now after another session of diabolical experiments because my farming lines have 0 points in them now. What to do? How do I get 250 x 24 (6,000!) XP points without wasting what little gaming time I have on a work night, grinding for Att. Points? There HAS to be a better way.

drowningfish999 · Jun 21, 2005, 04:04 AM // 04:04

I'm trying not to take a side with PvP or PvE players, since I enjoy both modes and therefore aren't really bothered by the repetition of mission.

I do believe that it would be fair to have some sort of easier, shorter way to unlock skills for PvP. If not, then make unlocking them available in PvP play as well. Possibly a "fame points" system where you earn points with fame which can be used to purchase skills.

I agree that repetition on certain parts of the game can be boring, especially all the retrieve and deliver quests. And I definitely understand what people trying to unlock skills go through.

Overall, I do think that PvP player got the short end of the stick so far, and I'm hoping that A.net can somehow fix this so everyone can enjoy it to it's fully potential.

BTW: people have been saying that you only need to complete the game 3 times to UAS, but I was under the impression that you couldn't unlock primary attribute skills for your secondary profession, so wouldn't it be 6 times to play through to truly unlock all skills?