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Jun 16, 2005, 07:43 PM // 19:43
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#1 |
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Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Jun 2005
Guild: FoN
Profession: Me/E
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My take on GuildWars...a mild disappointment over all.
**This is a mirror post of the review I gave on Designtechnica. If you all have any suggestions as to what I'm doing wrong...let me know.
 **I was one of the first in line to buy it. The bait is darned tasty, after all: Large, expansive world. Entrancing story. Skill-based PvP elements. Non-time intensive gameplay treadmill system. Free. No monthly bill. Enhanced graphics engine with real-time effects. But the problem is that most individuals and reviewers, like those seen in GameRankings.com, only play the game for a week or so, and then write their review. The graphics in GuildWars are a huge bonus. They're *amazing* and they run on even modest systems with integrated graphics. The graphics engine on this game is simply a work of wonder. The sound work is ok and the PvP elements are interesting but after playing the game for about a month, I can tell you right now that the game is NOT WoW. If you're thinking that you're getting Everquest for free, you're wrong. The server instancing that you experience on quests or missions means you rarely meet people outside your own team of friends. There's definitely a social component missing as a result. There's very little role playing and community. It's all centered on guilds and usually, guilds are formed more out of necessity than friendship. I luckily found a guild of nice players, called Forces of Nature(FoN) but even so, we don't go grouping often. Most of the time, the gameplay is solo. And that solo gameplay accentuates the game's weaknesses. The different classes are NOT balanced. Forget what the web site www.guildwars.com tells you. They're not balanced. Mesmers(the game equivalent of a bard) are by far the hardest level to campaign with and if you choose that profession as your primary class, prepare for some tough lumps. My first build was a MesmerElementalist and it took me 25 hours just to solo-level to 10th level post-searing. My FighterMonk took approximately half that time. Of course the statements about GW not being non-time intensive are completely inaccurate. The game is VERY time-intensive. Sure, you can teleport from city to city using your map. Great. But to play PvP, you need to obtain skills, equipment and other resources through campaigning and campaigning, while quick at first, can be very s..l..o..w...depending on your profession once you reach post-searing play. You'll often find that you can level up to level five on your first hour. The next five levels take you ten hours afterwards and each level after that takes you about five hours all by itself. PvP is very cutthroat and you won't really be competitive in upper-eschelon play, without the goodies you find campaigning. So you can forget dreaming about jumping in right after buying the game and competing at any decent level in PvP. Finding partners, especially out of your guild, to campaign with is very rough going and thankfully there are henchmen you can hire. The henchmen are even equipped with really solid AI and perform much better than their levels would indicate(they're about 6 levels lower than you at any given time). The problem is that they're a huge resource burden, often making drops from mobs far less likely. The drops can be improved with less henchmen on your team but the game becomes far more difficult in some game areas if you do decide to group more sparsely. You are ultimately forced to decide: Do you want gold, items and goodies or do you want levels. No game should force you to play that way. The creatures in the game are repetetive and employ poor AI during the first 10 levels. Once you start facing Charr and other opponents, the AI climbs slightly. But make no mistake, this game isn't about enemy AI because the AI ain't great. This game is about waves of mobs wearing you out. Waves and waves of identical mobs over and over again. Which is why, of course, GW is enormous. The game world would probably take about 2 hours to traverse, once you've unlocked most of the areas, assuming you travelled in a straight line. Now square such a map and you can realize that there is a large variety of areas and creatures to slay. The problem is that you'll most likely be slaying the same three types over and over once you enter one area. The last two problems I notice is that the game has a story but unlike most reviewers, I think it's pretty weak. The game unfolds around you very slowly, rarely forcing you to make tough calls or split-decisions. Moreover, the gameplay focuses on either: "Fetch me this ingredient." OR "Kill XXX entity for me to gain experience.". The problem becomes even more underscored when you realize that the game mechanics are VERY shallow. Six professions, NO kinds of stats, save your ability scores(about half a dozen) and your AC. Everything else is obscured from you, so if you're a stat-junky or a tactician that relishes sifting through volumes of statistical possibilities for variation in your character, like in D&D based games or Diablo...you can forget it. The game feels far more like an FPS than an RPG and the only real ways to differentiate yourself from your opponents is the color of your spells/effects and your outfit. Which brings me to my last point. Outfitting your character is an excruciating process. Sure you can salvage materials from goodies and craft your own items with help. Usually, the item you found at level 3 is just as good as the items you find at level 13. No, I'm NOT kidding. The items are very ho-hum. No distinction between them in appearance or abilities. Usually you'll find a Staff with damage +3 and a Staff with damage +4. That's it. Most individuals look all the same, and employ dyes to make themselves look different. The problem is that dyes are really expensive(each mob drops maybe 2-20 gp and ONE dye costs 1000 gp). Crafting items is equally expensive and so you have players penalized for trying to differentiate their characters. One could argue that such a process allows a rewarding satisfaction to those that finally achieve their differentiation. Unfortunately, I haven't asked those 2 people yet. But seriously, forcing 98% of the people to look almost identical just to reward 2% of the 24-7 players is NOT a good strategy. And heaven forbid you want to sell your SuperCraftSword +6, when some daisy drops a SuperCraftSword +7 one day. The sword that you crafted for 1000 gp is impossible to sell for more than 100 gp to any merchant. Huh? In short, the economy in the game is painfully broken. Money comes slowly and only to those that level grind and when you finally do gain enough to buy dye and new items, you realize that your old junk is worthless. I would have to say that GW is a very unforgiving game. That word best sums it up: "unforgiving". GW has an attitude that you: "should just suck it up and play". But I'm playing a game, and GW shouldn't feel like work, which sometimes it does. Using the same 8 spells over and over(you can only outfit your character with 8 spells/abilities at any one time), on brainless mobs so that I can scrounge 60 gp to buy an extra +1 on my generally ineffectual weapon, just to start all over again, is NOT my idea of "fun". It will be interesting to see what ArenaNet does in the following expansions, to try and spice things up. Seeing as how I spent 50 bucks on this game already, I'll keep playing and try to get my money's worth. But that said, I'm pretty sure that as time goes on, more and more people will bore with GW because it seems to punish players even more than Everquest or WoW. People are just too wowed at the moment to notice. It's a shame too because GW has huge potential. No monthly fees makes it perfect for gamers like me that don't think "renting games" is acceptable and the graphics engine and network code are simply top notch(no seriously, I'm in shock how amazing the code is). Even the production values are good, with good looking models and animations, as well as textures. The problem is that this game is mostly skin-deep. Maybe they can transplant NWN equipment into GW and tweak the economy/community. Last edited by Madan; Jun 16, 2005 at 07:45 PM // 19:45.. Reason: Just wanted to add a disclaimer in the top. :) |
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Jun 16, 2005, 07:58 PM // 19:58
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#2 |
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Banned
Join Date: May 2005
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Not everyone will like this game and I'm getting sick of the complaining.
You sound just like everyone else complaining about the game. You appear to have limited experience in the game. When I first started playing the game I thought it was great, then I went through a "down period" in which I was bored of the game. I continued to play though and found that it got much better. Everyone who hates the game complains about grind, what grind? Many people finished the game in the first WEEK it came out, some before depending on how long they played. Thats not a grind. The game is called GUILDwars. It's centered around guild battles, they ARE encouraged and probably needed. Why would you play a game called GUILDwars and not expect to have a guild? The weapon and armors not having insane mods like Diablo II or something are to make the game more skill based. Everyone can get near flawless gear with minimal work. You complain about grind then complain about how the items are too weak and everyone has the same? The items are similar to make PvP skill/strategy based instead of OMFG I FARMED MORE THAN J00 SO I CAN AFFORD TEH LEET ITEM LAWL LAWLAWL. If you continue to play the game you'll probably end up liking it in the end. The fact that you think crafting materials and dye are really expensive leads me to believe you aren't very far in the game, nor have you been playing long. My ascended mesmer has 27 hours played, shes past ascension. I don't know how it took you 25 hours to get to level 10. People didn't come play GW for a free everquest or WoW, at least I didn't. This isn't even a game suggestion. |
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Jun 16, 2005, 07:59 PM // 19:59
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#3 |
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Academy Page
Join Date: May 2005
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.
I disagree.
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Jun 16, 2005, 08:33 PM // 20:33
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#4 |
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Then some quick points, if you'll allow me:
1) Item variation: in lower levels you're encouraged to find/use collectors for items. You can craft items, but clearly they cost a lot of money. Guild Wars encourages you to explore rather than assume (as most adventurer rpgers assume) you'll find everything you need conviniently at your feet along the way. 2) AI: I guess I question how far in the game you actually got. Level is really no indicator...I've seen people hit level 20 at Lion's Arch. Mob AI is actually incredibly varied and has a steep learning curve. Fighting low-level monsters with *relatively low-level abilities* is a far cry from fighting teams of high-level creatures with advanced AI. 3) Most Guild Wars players would argue that character-building is simple, not shallow. Finding the right combination of attribute points (which are easy to acquire and thus painless to spend) and skills (which take time to acquire, but really it's up to you to figure out how to use them) isn't really easy for most players. Picking mesmer because they seem neat and elementalist because you like mages is shallow. I hate to be this guy, but if you'd read the manual blurb on mesmers you would have seen they require the most game knowledge, tactical ability, and observational skill to play out of the box. The simplicity of the character system is what allows players to focus on PvP and PvE instead of having to either stand around practicing spells forever to boost their ability, running endless quests to boost their many attributes (there are *two* attribute quests in Guild Wars), or having to kill the big scary named dracolich who barks meteors and breathes acid and sneezes little baby dracoliches who bark meteors and breathe acid with three allied groups of six so you can get Power Word Kill You Mutha. 4) Community: You totally got us there. The community is flooded with trash. Isn't every community? Look at it like making friends at school or work...it takes effort. You simply will not get along with everyone. There will be irrational people, but if you try you *will* find people you like and you will find a network of friends. If I can do it (and people here can probably attest to my glimmering sunshiney personality) anyone can. So we thank you for your review. We may not agree with it, but we appreciate the time you spent. [ ] |
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Jun 16, 2005, 08:35 PM // 20:35
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#5 |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: May 2005
Location: NC, USA
Guild: Ohm Mahnee Pedmay [Hoom]
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I appreciate the original poster's opinions. He explains them rather than just ranting. I just wanted to chime in to agree on one point and disagree on a couple.
I definitely agree that it's a bummer that loot (and XP, by the way) goes down sharply when you team with other players or henchies. Even though no grind is required to complete all the missions in the game, a HUGE amount of grind (even after last night's game updates) is required to either equip a competent PVP character or take on a full second profession. If your goals include either of those endeavors, you have no choice but to farm for loot and XP. And farming is multitudes more rewarding solo. I think it'd be great if ANet made it equally rewarding to play with teammates. I really dislike feeling torn between having social fun and advancing my character. I guess I disagree about the lack of statistical complexity. Well, maybe I'm just a boring statistician, but I am one IRL, and I have found the probability challenges in this game to be a blast . Maybe there aren't as many total possible skill combinations as in other games, but there is still an overwhelming number of them. And the difference between this game and others is that it's easy (with the 8-skill-swapping setup and attribute refunds) to try a large number of combinations in a short amount of time and directly experience the variations for yourself.Lastly I wanted to express my support for ANet's decision to enforce similar appearances for each class. I think it's great to see at a glance which of my teammates is a warrior or ranger, etc. I can also tell what kind of armor they have. This helps me adjust strategy in the middle of a fight without having to figure out which player is which and look at the party window. And in PVP, I can tell from character animations when someone in casting certain kinds of spells. It makes it quite fun and interactive... and if everyone were able to customize their characters, it would ruin this whole component. I don't think the primary goal of GW is role-playing... it's competitive skill-based play, and conventions regarding character appearance definitely further that. |
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Jun 16, 2005, 08:45 PM // 20:45
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#6 |
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Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Jun 2005
Guild: FoN
Profession: Me/E
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Nice response time.
MCS, I'm also tired of the individuals that feel they have to lambast someone else simply because not everyone agrees.
Rather than logically replying to my thread, you've let your frustration with other posters get the better of you here. My post was polite and brings up some valuable points. Regardless of what complaints you may have heard in the past, whining, if you read my post, is not what I was doing. Nor is my post bereft of suggestions. I encourage you to read it. As for my "limited game experience". If by "limited" you mean that I haven't dedicated 1000 hours to playing a game I'm not terribly enthused with, you're right. If you're implying that I don't know how to play, I'd love to hear what I'm doing wrong...politely. It is my estimation that people that don't suffer grind, usually play in larger groups or play ungodly amount of hours. Let me preface my next comment by affirming that I'm a full time working adult with two jobs and responsibilities. There is an enormous amount of grind in GW. Playing "delivery boy" or "fetch" for 200 gp, especially when the same missions are rehashed over and over, is pretty grinding. Now, you can argue that you found the missions exciting and the gameplay enthralling and that, to you, it wasn't grind. To me, the gameplay is pretty stale. To thousands of players, it's grind. Rather than dismissing me, which I'm sure ArenaNet wouldn't want to do(they'd lose sales), perhaps a happy medium can be reached? Moreover, if you read my post, I never state that guilds should not be necessary. Again, you've given in to your frustration concerning other posts and have heaped on to me, all your feelings attributed to posters you may think are whiners. In fact, guilds should be an important component but right now, there's no drama or impact about different guilds and too few guilds are actively functional in the community. Things could get better. The "flawless" gear you speak of that is easy to find, is in fact, nowhere to be found. I would please love a map pointing to where it is. I'd love to find some. Moreover, the "few hours" you speak of must be subjective. Are a "few hours" to you 2 hours? 10? 200? Define "few". Addressing that the missions are repetitive(they ARE) and that equipment is underpowered for solved missions(they sometimes are) and that equipment isn't differentiated, isn't whining. And they aren't contradictory with amongst themselves. Anyone but a fool can see that bots have been banned recently precisely because farming was taking place. Bots were used to farm items because it does what? Cuts down on the grind. ArenaNet isn't stupid. They know what's happening. The question is, whether they'll do something about it. Let's get to the point, I'm not, as you say, whining. I don't want everything given to me. I'm willing to play to earn things. That's how the game becomes rewarding. But make the gameplay interesting and different. I'm not whining if I paid for my copy of the game. I have and this forum is for opinions and suggestions. I'm entitled to give them, just as much as you are. Let's try to keep this civil, ok? That said, you really don't know me and the "you noob" comments are quite telling about both your ability to have a mature discussion and your ability to be evenhanded. Oh btw, the entire "You haven't played for very long" is a great suggestion too. Thanks. |
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Jun 16, 2005, 08:58 PM // 20:58
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#7 |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: May 2005
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I have a hangover so I'm going to let someone else run you through all the reasons why you're wrong.
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Jun 16, 2005, 09:00 PM // 21:00
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#8 |
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Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Jun 2005
Guild: FoN
Profession: Me/E
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And here I thought that opinions couldn't be proven wrong. That everyone, like a nose, had one.
Thanks, btw. Maybe a mod can just lock this thread. This is by far the most condescending forum of the big three GW forums I've seen. Wow. |
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Jun 16, 2005, 09:27 PM // 21:27
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#9 |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Minnesota
Profession: W/N
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You make many valid points. This game isn't perfect, and there is nothing wrong with saying where you think it went wrong. Just ignore the people that are going to tell you that civilized, well thought out criticical opinions are "whining". Ugh. Don't even bother answering them. You can't talk to a person who won't listen to anything that isn't in line with what he already thinks.
--Nokomis |
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Jun 16, 2005, 09:36 PM // 21:36
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#10 | ||||||||||||||
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: California - irrigated desert...
Guild: The Myrmidon
Profession: E/N
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And now the rebuttal:
Hello Madan;
I am an Ex-SOE customer (EQ, SWG, EQ2) and have beta tested and played WoW, Lineage2, DAoC and Eve to name a few. MY take on Guild Wars is a bit different than yours. Allow me to rebut a few specific claims you made: Quote:
"The Graphics are amazing." SOE has spoonfed 300,000 paying customers that "high end graphics" can only be realized via their state of the art, in-house produced, true 3D raytracing and graphics engine. The truth is a bit more blunt; The EQ2 graphics engine is a turd to put it mildly - aye, it displays full 3D realized objects, physically correct lighting effects, and antistropic filtering. It looks like garbage. The "style" of the characters is soft-anime, with claymation hair, and hideously proportioned faces and body structure. To "realize" the full power of the EQ2 graphics engine requires computer processor power that does not yet exist. To have any form of playabilty, you must run the game in a medium to low setting, and the graphics are rendered positively hideous. A major part of game immersion is the overall look and feel of the characters and game world. You cannot design for Tolkien but deliver Pokemon, and then simply state, "It's there, you just aren't capable of seeing it." Likewise, if you are a big fan of anime, WoW is a beautiful game. If you are not, it is a day-glo freakishly cartoon-like grief fest. Any questions? I couldn't get past my nightelf's 3 foot long ears and eyebrows wobbling up and down as I ran - I'm an adult player, not a toddler. Quote:
/assigns one brownie point. Zone instancing is not a weakness, but a strength - although your perception is skewed here. A major dilemma with the gaming population in general is that they have been fed negative gaming concepts for so many years, they now consider these "normal" and any derivation, "negative." Instancing provides grief-free gaming. No chance of player introduced exploits or macros ruining your adventure, and if you want to farm - competition is zero. The missing "social" component is a player fallibility, not a game designed one: The general gaming consensus is that each offering is a "race" which must be run at maximum speed, lest one fall behind the position of eliteness so craved. Those who stop, smell the roses, and roleplay discover a wealth of roleplaying opportunities. The "weakness" is the community itself, not the game's design. By definition alone, "Community" is a player commodity - there are city, town, and mission zones where anyone can congregate and socialize. True, you cannot "meet" people in the field in Guild Wars, but this doesn not prevent you from "meeting" them otherwise. Your point is without merit. Quote:
If you spent more than a week exploring the game you would see this game has the most balanced classes out of any online RPG offered to date. It is a true rock-paper-scissors design, and you complain that your scissors where not sharp enough. My suggestion would be to try the rock or paper methodologies. Like any other game, once you learn how to do something, it becomes simpler for future iterations. I can raise any character to 10th level in a single evenings play - solo - by simply following this mantra: quest, quest, mission. Quote:
In your pre-programmed (courtesy of SOE, et al) gaming mentality; 20 levels = easy game. Guild Wars seeks to redefine the genre by offering a quest and mission driven system where skill determines outcome; not rote, "lather, rinse, repeat" routines that pass for skill in all others. The time sink becomes when you simply cannot progress in the game - due to shortcomings in your strategy and tactics - or generally a complete lack thereof. Quote:
Your items do not determine victory as they do in every other game. Your ability to play with skill, adapt on the fly, and develop counterstrategies does. Quote:
At the core, a engaging, interesting game is one that is equal parts challenging, fun, and entertaining all at once. The ironclad mindset of "grind, farm, become uber" does not work with this model - and your attempts to force and classify it into this mold fail in the process. Quote:
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Final Fantasy XII? Kill Bill? The Star Wars series? When you make a bold statement like this, you need to quantify it and give examples. I would be no more accurate if I simply stated, "You suck." How exactly do you suck? And why? Quote:
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As for "D&D based" essentially anything in the fantasy genre is "D&D based." If there are swords, spells, or pointy eared elves, it's D&D Based - or additionally, "Tolkien based" since he was the progenitor of what we commonly refer to as the "Fantasy genre." Quote:
The starting gear in GW is graphically superior to ANYTHING EQ2 has to offer - period. Likewise for WoW. Credit where due: Lineage 2 gear graphics kicks GW's ass, hands down: But that is a 75 level grindfest of Faustian proportions. Quote:
Lets summarize your earlier points: 25+ hours to get to level 10, 1 week total playing time, 1 class combo atttempted. One can safely state you possess absolutely no validity to anything you claim regarding this game. Your review would be best titled, "Guild Wars in 10 minutes - playing impressions." Quote:
Guild Wars has zero permanent loss. Zero. Nothing. Zilch. Even WoW inflicts 10% persistent Xp loss if you don't recover your spirit. Quote:
Your review, while entertaining, is completely biased, shabbily researched, and sloppily written. My apologies in advance for sounding harsh, but it was you, not I, who claimed this as an accurate review. Your lack of examples and unsubstantiated claims indicates you have played little to none of the competitive games in this genre, and your review is more a personal vendetta of perceived injuries rather than a factual accounting. Please learn from this and move on. Respectfully, Talesin Last edited by Talesin Darkbriar; Jun 16, 2005 at 10:39 PM // 22:39.. |
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Jun 16, 2005, 09:42 PM // 21:42
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#11 |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Arizona
Guild: Shadowstorm Mercenaries
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edit.. (Um, right, my post seems utterly pointless now thanks to Talesin's up there but I'll leave mine up just in case the original poster can't understand a real gamer/designer.
And thanks for that excellent rebuttle, it's oh so true...) Well, my opinion doesn't matter any more than yours does, but for any people out there who are reading these forums to decide wether or not to buy.. this is the possibly the most horrid review I have ever encountered for any game, if you could even call it a review. Now you don't have to take my word for it, but I would encourage any potential players to read elsewhere, because it only takes most players about 5 or 6 hours to reach lvl 10, and unless this 'reviewer' truly sucks, he didn't spend nearly enough time playing the game to form any kind of accurate opinions or experiences. Enough Said. Last edited by Reiden Argrock; Jun 16, 2005 at 10:02 PM // 22:02.. |
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Jun 16, 2005, 10:06 PM // 22:06
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#12 | ||||||
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Fishing Village in Wizard's Folly
Profession: R/
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Quote:
Anyway. Have you ever tried a Mesmer in PvP? A good mesmer can own a caster or warrior is under twenty seconds, no joke. PvE is very different than PvP, I know. They're actually a great class, just hard to play correctly. On PvE load up those degens and just watch a mobs health go! Quote:
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 Besides that though, I may be a bit jaded on this. I quit playing EverQuest for this game. And compared to where I came from (besides just EQ, other MMOs can be just as bad), this game doesn't even touch how terrible their time sinks are. Don't like killing the same mobs over and over again? How about camping for 15 hours killing the same lizardmen over and over again hoping that when they respawn one of them will be the rare mob you need. But, like I said, I just came off the crack and am still amazed that this game has no time sinks like I'm used to.Quote:
At least this game is a bit more creative about their quests, instead of the "bring this note to this guy" in EQOA *giggle*Quote:
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Jun 16, 2005, 11:55 PM // 23:55
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#13 | |
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Academy Page
Join Date: May 2005
Guild: Do Not Pass Go
Profession: R/Me
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Quote:
 Second, when you wrote this reply, you completely ignored the perfectly polite responses and skipped straight to "this is by far the most condescending... yada yada yada." I'd say you come across as a little condescending yourself. Wow. |
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Jun 16, 2005, 11:59 PM // 23:59
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#14 | ||||||||||
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Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Jun 2005
Guild: FoN
Profession: Me/E
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Talesin, I'm a bit at a loss why you gave me a long list of games you've beta tested for. It's almost as if you're qualifying your opinion with experience. Is an opinion really necessarily established in that sense? I don't think so.
Actually, I've played tons of similar games also. I'm an original hardcore MUD/MOOer. I've played EQ avidly, as well as beta tested for BioWare in NWN(where I spent the last couple of years playing in a PvP PW server. I've also played WoW and Sims Online. So there. Now we've both qualified our gaming backgrounds? Now, before I go into an Arstechnica philosophy of hopelessly and relatively unecessarily picking appart every comment you make with the quote tag, I'll just instead, *read* your points and address your message as a whole. I don't think, after all, that playing verbal tennis will clarify either of our points...at all. Also, I'm going to bypass your long riff on graphics about Everquest 2. I didn't mention EQ2's graphics. I was discussing GW's graphics. They're gorgeous. They're efficient. The netcode is tight. No other company has done appreciably better. They've definitely got a fantastic engine to work off of. Maybe you thought I was being sarcastic. If you did, I invite you to reread my initial post. I can definitely tell you misread my post because I didn't affirm that I played for only a week. I stated that I played for three. I haven't played in one week because, well, I had given up the game with all the work that I've had as of late. Besides that, I'm building my new box and I'm waiting for my GeF 6600 GT to arrive. But in any event, discussing the issue of instancing, I never said it didn't have any benefits. I certainly understand issues with, say, Lineage 2 and foreign mob campers ruining the fun of most players and the arising of mob like strongarm tactics in-game. But you can't deny that a big component of interaction...with real people has been sacrificed in order to achieve this peace of mind. In short, to solve a very real MMORPG ill, you've sacrificed a piece of community involvement. No, not all of your social component but definitely some. Do I know a better way of doing it? No. But in the end, I was giving an impression of how the world felt artificial without people in it. And to some of us, like me, it does. Despite any rationalizations, you all play games like this online for the same reason I do. To do so with other people. If we remove people from some of the equation, the game is going to lose some of the reason for existing, imo. I did find this condescending point to be relatively silly: Quote:
You'll also notice I didn't preface my post by stating: "This game sucks man, you're all idiots for playing it!". I recognize that some players enjoy the direction this game has taken. I enjoy this game but I posted these impressions because I would have preferred a slightly different one(or the flexibility to accommodate us both) and I believe it's only fair to chime in. In short, I never discounted your opinion as "wrong" or "ill-informed". Mature individuals don't have to "win" in discussions. It's not about winning. Keep that in mind for future social interaction. For the record, I carefully considered if my mesmer attempts were harder because I was more inexperienced than during my fighter attempt. Alas, that is NOT the case. My main character is still my Mesmer(Thane Mazare) and, no, levelling and "exploring" isn't easy at all for me. Death is a regular part of my complete breakfast. But since you've very unlikely read my post carefully, you're content to make all sorts of speculation concerning what I "really think". Newsflash: If I really think something, I'll tell you all. I don't need you to play tarot reader and psychic conduit for me. I can express myself just fine thanks. The game is hardly easy. Some parts are easy. Some parts are frighteningly hard. If you bother to reinterpret my post, you'll notice that I have issues with the progression of levels, not the difficulty or maximum levels. Now, I find the entire "GW uses skill" argument funny. Sure, some elements are almost Magic The Gatheringesque. You combine cards^s^s^skills and abilities to create crushing "combos". This isn't skill. This is practice. Sniff out a couple of abilities that work well together. Establish your sequence of contingencies and go for it. Same as in NWN(except in NWN you had hundreds of spells, dozens of classes, races, items, skills...etc.). The fact that you need to grind to get all the goodies in order to play PvP is vindication that it isn't completely skill based. The fact that bots have been attacked(bots are wrong btw...no doubt) and stricken by AN is blinding evidence that skill isn't the only element in GW. Quote:
"Yuo stupid no0b! My cyberCOxXor is biggar than jo0! Kekekeke!" Look, it's easy to call someone unskilled or even stupid from the safety of your mom's basement. I'm simply not going to get into an argument over a game. You're way smarter than everyone ok? I'm sure everyone wants to be your friend. Nokomis was so right. Why do people have to be insulting and unsavory? You don't agree with me? Fine. AN isn't going to stop giving you your game to make me happy. You don't have to be so threatened by me that you literally insult me. I mean, geez. Maybe it's those few players that have managed to do well in GW that feel threatened with the belief that their success in the game isn't WHOLLY dependent on skill? I would love to see a starting player trying to PvP duel a hardcore participant with armor that is only half his opponents and spells that lack even half the potency. I like the pokes at me being a liar by the way. Tasteful. Quote:
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And yes, if you can bring in movies into your comparison on stories, I can certainly bring in collaborative RPGs. "Fetch me a root"x3423 is not a story. I'm glad you think otherwise. I truly am glad you're enjoying the game. Unfortunately, I'm not liking it as much as I thought. Quote:
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If you read my initial post, you can correct this egregious misstatment. Quote:
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You've done so with little to no evidence to back your points and basically dragged your feet all over the rules on this board. I never said GW sucked. I never said it was a bad game or that anyone that likes it is a fool...etc. I simply said that there were some elements that I didn't like that ruin the experience for me. You dislike whiners and individuals that trash a game you like? I hate childish behavior, from individuals that invest themselves so much emtionally into a game that they feel they need to defend said skill in that game by acting like a total "class act" by insulting others(and yes, you're getting now, what you've given). It's quite sad. But then, such archtypes are as eternal as the tide, so I'm not terribly surprised. Edited for civility. 
Last edited by Madan; Jun 17, 2005 at 12:15 AM // 00:15.. |
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Jun 17, 2005, 12:03 AM // 00:03
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#15 |
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Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Jun 2005
Guild: FoN
Profession: Me/E
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I'd like to thank the polite posters that have responded with candor but respectfullness. I don't mind that people disagree with me. On other GW boards, the posters have been far more understanding and in truth, many inspired me to get playing again.
The comments by a select few here, like MCS or Talesin or others are shameful. It doesn't make me want to play. It certainly doesn't convince me of their point of view and the behavior goes a long way towards establishing the Councillor's comments of "trash" in the community. I'd like to thank those that know how to discuss civilly. I truly appreciate it. Thanks. Last edited by Madan; Jun 17, 2005 at 12:12 AM // 00:12.. |
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Jun 17, 2005, 12:13 AM // 00:13
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#16 | |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Guild: Order of the Sanguine Dragon [OSD]
Profession: E/Mo
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Quote:
I'll refrain from making suggestions as to what it might be because I'll just end up flaming the gameplay dynamic of traditional MMORPGs. |
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Jun 17, 2005, 12:23 AM // 00:23
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#17 |
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Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Jun 2005
Guild: FoN
Profession: Me/E
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Actually Spirit, a lot of you have read right into my comments. It's human nature, I think, to become defensive about something we like when someone criticizes it.
Case in point, you immediately hedged against any other MMORPG I might mention. But guess what? I'm not stating that any other game IS better than GW. The attitude of many respondants has been to answer with venom, as if I'm some WoW junkie that chimed in to crap all over your game. That isn't the case. I'll reiterate: GW is one of the best MMORPG(not really a MMORPG actually...but close enough) out there. Period. But my post was more a statement of general frustration and I was generally hoping for two things. A. That I wouldn't be alone in my thoughts. I'm not. Dozens of players at other forums, like those in GW Hall, GW Online...etc, have posted similar arguments. This, believe it or not, motivates me to play because it shows me that the community is alert to the shortcomings of the game, which ultimately means that ArenaNet will become aware of them...and work to fix them. What I didn't want to hear was "GW is perfect! You noob!". It's unrealistic. It's not true and it's not going to encourage me to play. B. I was hoping to get suggestions(in fact, see my initial post). Some posters came in here and tried to cram down my throat, something I would have freely accepted had they just handed it to me politely. And by DOING so, they literally defeated the purpose of their argument. If a poster comes in and says, "Yeah, I feel for ya man. I can see why you think that. I don't agree with you. This is why..." and then provides some tips or strategies to make the game more fun, I would definitely be more receptive than if someone amateurishly retorts: "You noob!". I'm not here to fight. I'm not. Posting that "I don't like xxx aspects of a game." is NOT commensurate to cursing out someone's mom. So when someone comes along and calls you an idiot for not liking it...well...it's counterproductive. |
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Jun 17, 2005, 12:29 AM // 00:29
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#18 |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Guild: Order of the Sanguine Dragon [OSD]
Profession: E/Mo
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Point taken Madan, but will you answer my question?
What DO you think makes a game fun? I'm not asking as a flame, but out of genuine interest. With all the talk of grind that goes about on these forums I've recently been trying to decide exactly what it is that people find fun in a game. |
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Jun 17, 2005, 12:51 AM // 00:51
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#19 |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Southern Cali
Guild: Herald of the Storm
Profession: W/R
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Ok, so we got one obvious question out of the way:
Q: What IS a "good" MMORPG to you? A: Well, there really isn't any, they're all mild disappointments or worse. So here's my question: Q: What, specifically, do you see as being needed to make this game better? One point you cited was the issue of monster mobs. You do tend to fight the same groups numerous Times in any given area, and it can be bad on specific missions where your end point is not in a district, but rather in the middle of nowhere so you are forced to fight your way in. However in most cases you can usually just "warp" out and not fight your way back out once you have completed the quest. Do you have any suggestions for making this "better" or is it a situation where you just think something's not right, but can't quite put your finger on what it might be? One suggestion offered has been that the greater level you are, the more likely (percentage-wise) it should be that mobs leave you alone. There is still a problem however in later stages of the game where practically EVERYBODY is higher level anyway. In any case, given your extensive opinions as to why this game is not quite up to your expectations, I'd honestly like to know what sort of game WOULD meet your high standards. Your answers would prove either enlightening or the rantings of a madman. I'm curious to see which direction I get pulled.
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Jun 17, 2005, 12:54 AM // 00:54
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#20 |
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Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Jun 2005
Guild: FoN
Profession: Me/E
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Actually, would it be ok if I gave some suggestions for what would make GW more fun for me instead?
To me, a stronger story. More epic. More closely tied. Hell, maybe more linear(although BG 2 had decent branching and it was great). More memorable characters. Or instead, humans that participate in a storyline. It doesn't have to be server-altering but people that role play are more likely to enjoy PvE, I think. I don't think the story in GW is strong enough. A stronger storyline would be great, since other games like it lack story for the most part. It would be different and would, admittedly make the singleplaying PvE moments in GW more rewarding. A better story would allow for a different variation in quests than simply rush messenger or fetching. Assassination missions, which GW has some of, is interesting but they're never played up. Theft missions maybe? Sneak missions maybe? Spells that would allow sneaking or skills? Political missions maybe? Missions that force you to choose sides maybe? Many of the "Kill xxx target" doesn't work...Many times, I've killed the target, which is relatively identical to all the others, before I've even realized it. Maybe less enemies, with better AI and more climactic settings would be better? Very little fanfare, which is odd since the engine AN has is...amazing. It is possible that the game gets more climactic later but as of yet, I don't see it. I've wandered around endless tracts of identical waste and slaughtered thousands of devourers, Charr, golems...etc. It's hard to explain but a tighter storyline, with less(but smarter equipped) enemies would be easier to keep me entertained. Apart from the story/quest system, I would love to have a bit more tactical discretion. Right now, I have a total of 20 spells. I choose 8 of them. I think that's limiting. Even my "noobish" brain can handle more than just 8 choices in any one duel. Plus, this game feels an awful lot like Magic CCG. The mechanics are more important than the content and I don't like that. In NWN dueling(which had its own set of problems), a player combined spells just like here(believe it or not, this isn't a new concept) to achieve their objectives. The difference is that there, the spells are considered as spells that are used in conjunction. Here the focus isn't on the spell(hence their uniform and unimpressive effects) but the function of the spell.Over there, you cast Storm of Vengeance because, yeah, you wanted to poke at their saves and hoped that an opponent couldn't raise a Clarity or Spell Shield(or had skills) in time before they popped a one. But the spell was cool and it was a Storm and it had flair and it felt like a fantasy game. Here, all the effects are functions. All mix and match. There's no soul to the game. It feels like just trading functions. There's no role play involved, I guess. It's really hard to explain. I don't know if you're catching on to me. The spell effects should be grander. More dramatic. Some spells should be devastating. And a greater variety of effects on spells and abilities would be great. I know some of you believe the variety is already high now but trust me, compared to many other online PvP games, GW just doesn't even come close. More story. Bigger and better effects on spells. More variety on spell effects. More variation on looks. Right now the economy in GW is painful. Selling an object that cost you 1000 gp for 35 gp is just insane. Period. Sure, you can sell to other individuals but sometimes, the items aren't really sale-friendly or you can't find a buyer. To me, there's something inherently friendly about a merchant-dump. No, I'm not asking for a 1000 gp refund but 500? 400? Not 40. Dye is really expensive and the problem, as showcased by other posters here is that the attitude is: "You can dye your crap after you've maxed levelled and explored everywhere and done everything.". It's again, an unforgiving attitude to me because it basically tells the player: You want to be unique? You want to RP? You want to be personalized? Keep levelling. Grind away. You're not ready yet. Whereas, dyes would be a PERFECT way to prevent inflation in the game because it's a way to bleed excess coinage for a variety of color and design effects. Also, armor and clothing should be differentiated. It's ok starting the same as everyone else. But equipment should look different and there should be distinct looks for individuals in THE SAME BUILD, once they've, say, levelled to 7-8 and hit post-searing. So I guess it would be nice if there was five or six clothing looks for each build, rather than the same look, just alternately colored. I believe it would encourage role play. More story. Bigger and better effects on spells. More variety on spell effects. A more "forgiving" economy with lower costs. More variety in armor and equipment. Also, by the same token, I think all the weapons at least for the month or so that I have played, look/act pretty much the same. It would be nice to have differentiation. The weapons don't have to be uber but maybe they possess an exotic look or a strange ability that make them valuable. They could possess flavor text, or a history. They could be rare, so that even if they're not more powerful, at least it's not the case of the sword +1 and sword +2. Sure, D&D have s +1 and s +2...but they also have really rare finds. This game doesn't seem to have that...yet. So to sum up: More story. Bigger and better effects on spells. More variety on spell effects. A more "forgiving" economy with lower costs. More variety in armor and equipment/weapons. There are more I've thought up, I am sure. But these are some I've produced in this already lenthy post. That said, I don't think they're necessary to make GW a good game. It already is. But these additions could make GW a classic. A legendary game. And I for one see that the potential, unlike in other games, is definitely here. :/ Hopefully, I've made some sense. Last edited by Madan; Jun 17, 2005 at 12:59 AM // 00:59.. |
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