Curse

Epinephrine · Jun 21, 2005, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnansnow

If you don't want to use Marksmanship, be a different primary, and be a ranger secondary, so you can use wilderness and beast mastery and use a close range/far range max damage weapon from your primary.

How is that helpful? You don't choose Ranger primary for marksmanship, it's available to any secondary. The reasons for Ranger primary are:

Armour
Energy + Regen
Expertise and expertise skills
Use of Ranger runes

If you are after these elements then you pick ranger primary. Marksmanship has nothing to do with it. Plenty of builds will want to use the non-marksmanship lines, ranger is the only class restricted by having one line with a weapon, and none with a focus. Your advice is worthless, as it doesn't help anyone's problem. In fact, most of your comments are pretty useless - you don't seem to think before posting; the rationale for needing alternate weapons is pretty clearly laid out - it doesn't need to be a new one (darts etc... :P), staff, wand and bow are in game. Rangers have enough skills in the wilderness, expertise and beastmastery lines to make a perfectly good character, without needing a bow. They do need a weapon though.

arnansnow · Jun 21, 2005, 03:53 PM // 15:53

If you really want a different weapon for a ranger why don't you use a weapon from your secondary class? You still get all of those bonuses you mentioned, and you get a max damage weapon.

Epinephrine · Jun 21, 2005, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnansnow

If you really want a different weapon for a ranger why don't you use a weapon from your secondary class? You still get all of those bonuses you mentioned, and you get a max damage weapon.

Only if
a) you use a secondary line as opposed to unlinked skills (I might well use resurrection/rebirth and remove hex as two skill for a R/Mo, with no points invested in my secondaries)
b) if you have enough invested in the secondary line to get a max damage weapon - I often have Curses with a few points, or enough healing/other secondary to get some benefit without putting much into it.
c) your secondary line happens to have a weapon - tactics as a secondary for example gets you only a shield.

Ix Chel pointed out that you could easily take an 11, 10, 10 build as a ranger and not have access to a weapon, when any other class would have a max damage weapon and focus/shield or staff available. Rangers are very self suficent, and often don't invest highly in a secondary line to begin with.

arnansnow · Jun 21, 2005, 04:04 PM // 16:04

I am a ranger and I invest heavily in air magic (please don't flame me for doing anything wrong I don't care, it works well for me) so if I wanted to, I could get a wand/staff/focus item, but I don't, why? Because with bows I can actually use the awesome bow skills, such as barrage, poison arrow, and all of those. Without a bow most of the marksmanship line, some of the expertise line, and some of the wilderness line go down the drain.

Epinephrine · Jun 21, 2005, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnansnow

I am a ranger and I invest heavily in air magic (please don't flame me for doing anything wrong I don't care, it works well for me) so if I wanted to, I could get a wand/staff/focus item, but I don't, why? Because with bows I can actually use the awesome bow skills, such as barrage, poison arrow, and all of those. Without a bow most of the marksmanship line, some of the expertise line, and some of the wilderness line go down the drain.

Right, and others play Trapper builds or Beastmaster builds using expertise and wilderness, and they'd like the option of a weapon. Some then pick up a sceondary for minor support, like some low level curses. The point is that in any other class you would guarantee yourself access to a top end weapon and offhand or staff by taking 3 attirbute lines to level 10+, and most likely from just having 1 attribute maxed.

A trapper can conceivably go 12+3 Expertise and 12+4 Wilderness (or the other way 'round) to get maximised traps and not have access to a weapon. A beast master can likewise end up without a weapon, and a beast/trapper the same - which forces the spreading of points to get a useable instrument. Just because you play a traditional bow ranger doesn't mean everyone does, and traps are pretty darned effective - a Staff of the Wilds for trapping would be a great thing, some energy, chances to speed up trap laying and so on? Currently the system penalises folks for not taking marksmanship as a ranger, and penalises any non-ranger by having absurd costs to many Ranger skills - the costs are low enough for a ranger with expertise to use them, but too high for non-expertise users to use them effectively - so ranger secondaries are pigeonholed, as are rangers.

arnansnow · Jun 21, 2005, 04:26 PM // 16:26

So they need to make some wilderness/beast mastery specific weapons. I still think Rangers should only use bows (unless they make some whips

), but they could make some none-Marksmanship bows to help the non-Marksmanship Rangers.

Epinephrine · Jun 21, 2005, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnansnow

So they need to make some wilderness/beast mastery specific weapons. I still think Rangers should only use bows (unless they make some whips

), but they could make some none-Marksmanship bows to help the non-Marksmanship Rangers.

But this gives the non-marksmanship rangers access to a bow - that's bad forgame balance, as many skills (expertise line for example) have powerful effects based on using a bow (debilitating shot for example). If they made an expertise requirement bow you can bet I'd consider using Expertise alone on aa R/Me, my other attributes would go into my mesmer skills and I'd get a fully effective bow with bow skills saving all the points I'd normally have to spend on Marksmanship. Saving a 9+ level investment in an attribute is too unbalancing. The key is that it is a "bow" - allowing use of "bow" skills.

Likewise, the Wilderness line has nice bow boosting skills, but in order to limit the effectiveness of investing solely in WS they made the bow requirement Marksmanship - if it were WS it'd be too unbalancing. As it is you can invest heavily in WS and get access to traps and such, but to make use of Poison Arrow and the various arrow preps (Ignite, Choking Gas, Kindle, Incendiary, Melandru's) you need an investment in the Marksmanship line - that's probably a deliberate attempt by ANet to prevent getting powerful weapon buffs and the accompanying weapon in the same line - making a bow based off WS would defeat that arrangement, while a staff, wand and focus wouldn't.

That's why a staff or wand/focus idea is better - because it doesn't unbalance the game - giving them a new bow based off another attribute makes the bow-based skills in non-marksmanship lines much more accessible - but they were likely placed there to make them LESS accessible. Adding a new bow line in changes the way the ranger works substantially; adding a new staff in alters the balance only slightly, but allows for new styles of play.

arnansnow · Jun 21, 2005, 04:44 PM // 16:44

So they can make a beast mastery specific bow, and then make a staff for wilderness.

Epinephrine · Jun 21, 2005, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnansnow

So they can make a beast mastery specific bow, and then make a staff for wilderness.

That might be sensible - Beast Mastery doesn't have bow specific buffs, so it wouldn't break that balance.

Elena · Jun 21, 2005, 05:03 PM // 17:03

as much as i can see a whip working it would need some skills related to it and this would sturr things up for now leave it alone as it would unbalance things maybe later

arnansnow · Jun 21, 2005, 05:04 PM // 17:04

I was joking about the whip.

GWDiseased · Jun 24, 2005, 11:22 PM // 23:22

my take on this one, make a unique system for bows
let's say I get max damage bow with (req10 marksmanship)
now, maybe we can add an arrow system so let's say:
x Arrows
Arrows (special bow add on) req x Willderness Survivel

with some types of effects I thought of

Mandaleru effect - on impact with a foe, all skills are disabeled for 1-3 secounds (chance 1%-15%)
Heavy effect-usually targets lower parts (laggings,boots) crippeled for 1-3 secounds (chance 1%-15%)
Sharp effect-armor pentation and bleeding for 1-7 secounds (chance 1%-15%)

some more may be added, the thing is, it's not a bow string or something, it's optional arrow modifications that add some special, not usual effects