Curse

Sandman Uk · Jun 27, 2005, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Although it seemed to me a good idea at the time regarding the region holding the HoH have access to the underworld. It is now apparent that Europe stinks at PVP play and very rarely have the opertunity to visit the Underword.

A lot of the complaints regarding finishing the game and have nothing to do seems to come from Europeans (Me included).

Wouldnt it be a better idea to open them up and charge more to enter say 5k . divided by 8 players deducted on entering. This would generate a very good gold sink and open up the game for the lvl20+ type who have finished the game and await the underworld opening through PVP play.

Just a thourght dont reply all agressive

Good Points Bad points only please

john little · Jun 27, 2005, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Opening up UW/Fissure:

Good Points: gives lvl20's something to do that isn't PvP; makes it easier to get fissure armour; disconnects PvP from PvE; american server 'immigrants' might come back.

Bad Points: HoH just becomes 'another' PvP tourney; people would get bored of UW and fissure; disconnects PvP from PvE; no incentive for europe to consolidate guilds; the one thing in GW that actually means something would be lost.

The last bad point is the killer for me. PvP needs more results/rewards and game affecting things than we have now. Meaningless PvP gets boring real quick, and you only have to look at the temple of the ages when europe needs 1 more victory to see how much enthusiasm it generates.

If Europe cannot get its act together and create some decent PvP guilds, then it frankly doesn't deserve high end PvE. European players are not intrinsically worse than US or Korean people, just at this moment in time poorly organised. I'd rather see it stay the same and force guilds in europe to get better rather than giving the one thing worth fighting for away for free.

What I would do is add more PvE that is internationally competitive. A 'last man standing' style PvE mission where a team from each country competes against waves of npc mobs would be cool f.ex., I'm fully in favour of leaving the current system as it is and adding more.

Dralon · Jun 27, 2005, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Doesn't deserve high end PVE? We are playing a game. Thanks for telling a large group of people, including those who aren't in large guilds that can get good UW/fissure groups together on a moments notice when we hold the HOH, that once our PVE missions are over, our game is over and to go play something else.

I would love to explore the UW and fissure, but paying for a pickup group since I am not in a large guild and have it crap out quickly is hardly fun. Oh wait, since I am in a small guild I don't deserve high end PVE , right?

Anarchist_Monk · Jun 27, 2005, 07:21 PM // 19:21

ah u must be a european too John. I don't think they should open it up to everyone. And I think 5k for entrance is way to much. I agree Europe doesn't really ever get a chance to get there, but is that Anet or our fault? No. Thats Europe's fault. Get your act together and participate in some tombs and HoH. Get better so you can win, and get a chance to play in the UW and fissures. I think Anet still wants some link between PvE and PvP, and I don't blame them. I think it works out fine. Americans just have to wait till like 5pm cst to play in the fissures and uw and we don't complain about that. Why 5pm? Thats when the Koreans go to bed

. A few days ago I saw the Europeans hold it for a good while, even against the Koreans. Just try to get the European guilds more active and try to win some. Come up with some good team builds and put some thought into your game play and you guys will win some.

Sandman Uk · Jun 27, 2005, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by john little

Opening up UW/Fissure:

Good Points: gives lvl20's something to do that isn't PvP; makes it easier to get fissure armour; disconnects PvP from PvE; american server 'immigrants' might come back.

Bad Points: HoH just becomes 'another' PvP tourney; people would get bored of UW and fissure; disconnects PvP from PvE; no incentive for europe to consolidate guilds; the one thing in GW that actually means something would be lost.

The last bad point is the killer for me. PvP needs more results/rewards and game affecting things than we have now. Meaningless PvP gets boring real quick, and you only have to look at the temple of the ages when europe needs 1 more victory to see how much enthusiasm it generates.

If Europe cannot get its act together and create some decent PvP guilds, then it frankly doesn't deserve high end PvE. European players are not intrinsically worse than US or Korean people, just at this moment in time poorly organised. I'd rather see it stay the same and force guilds in europe to get better rather than giving the one thing worth fighting for away for free.

What I would do is add more PvE that is internationally competitive. A 'last man standing' style PvE mission where a team from each country competes against waves of npc mobs would be cool f.ex., I'm fully in favour of leaving the current system as it is and adding more.

I think we are all realising that PVP/PVE dont mix.

Why will hard core PVP players who win in the HOH want to come out of the halls and go to the underworld when they are on a roll in the Halls. A sigill that can still fetch 50k and is better than a Gold Superior drop thats worth 25g (little dig there) PVP reward is to open Underworld for PVE.

PVE players who dont enjoy PVP play have to sit around and hope their PVP region win so they can carry on playing the game after completing the first part of the game.

john little · Jun 27, 2005, 07:35 PM // 19:35

I'm not and have never been in a large guild. It is incredibly easy to get togther a good fissure/UW group quickly, far too many groups (from my experience) faff on forever about 'oh we should have 68 million monks' when in reality a decent monk and a e/mo set up for healing can clear the map. When europe looks like it's about to win the favour there are hundreds in the ToA, the problem is that the distribution of classes is often off (particularly rangers in my experience - while useful, you never really need more than 1 or 2).

I'm sorry if this is a bit off topic, but so much stuff is piss easy to get in GW and easily accessable that I feel justified in defending the last bastion of hard core GW, which is what UW and the Fissure are. I'm happy for anet to introduce 'easily accessible carebear lvl20 PvE land #24' which isn't affected by HoH, but I implore people to keep the ToA as it is....

Quote:

PVE players who dont enjoy PVP play have to sit around and hope their PVP region win so they can carry on playing the game after completing the first part of the game.

fissure and UW are bonus levels you are not meant to have a right to enter them after completing the game. They serve absolutely no purpose in terms of the storyline, and don't have any weapons that have higher damage than non-UW/fissure ones. If you are sitting around after completing the PvE game, either wait for the new levels, expansion or try some PvP. All that changes between high end PvE and PvP is the enemy names (Thirsty River is a good example of this).

I'm gonna stop this mini rant since it is likely exactly the kind of unsolvable argument Sandman was trying to avoid with his original post. Good Points, Bad Points remember....

EternalTempest · Jun 27, 2005, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Here's another idea, break up the culture zones in europe (maybe along the lines of the language zones that they already have done). It make for more ferice competion but allows fo the culture zone in europe to band toghter more easily.

Drakron · Jun 27, 2005, 07:49 PM // 19:49

HoH is not useless ... Tombs gives fame points (and its the only place were fame points are awarded) and the reward is a celestial rune that goes at least for 50 plat.

The problem with GW is that Guilds were being forced into PvP to get a Sigil (that was corrected) so they could get a guildhall that ends up being useless since Guilhallls are just the GvG (PvP) map.

Fissure and Underworld are a problem since it forces players to get into PvP so their region have favor and they can get there, those maps are unforgiving and even with favor cost 1 plat to ge there.

But what is 1 plat for 8 players, when I got in fissure I got 3 chaos axes drops and 1 eternal bow and that is more that enough to pay the entry costs.

PvE issue is those maps, in order to get there you have to rely on PvP abilites and that is wrong ... forcing people that play PvE to play PvP to get what ends up being PvE maps its not good, expecialy since PvE players eventually run out of things to do, fissure armor is something that costs a lot and takes a lot of time to get the shards and ectoplama ... its pure grind already, adding random map access is worst.

As for anyone that complains about how europeans better start to play PvP I am going to point out how many PvP complain about how they have to unlock stuff and how PvP ends up being just Tombs to HoH (and they are right in the last one) so if PvP have issues why is PvE dont have then?

It does, its the favor requirement so a ranger can get a spider pet or a warrior can get fissure armor.

Personaly I would make having favor allowing access to those maps without costs (since drops pay the cost anyway) as not having favor means paying the current cost.

Right now the objective of HoH still favor for PvE maps, not PvP rewards.

john little · Jun 27, 2005, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Guildhalls were designed to be the gateway to GvG. Therefore their design favour those who are ready for GvG by rewarding success in the HoH. The fact that you can buy celestial sigils is irrelevant, it merely allows non PvP guilds to own halls without requisite experience.

Nothing in UW or Fissure is 'better' than normal PvE. It just looks different. If you get the items today, what are you going to do tomorrow? There are better games if you want itemquest.

Drakron · Jun 27, 2005, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Nothing is better is not the point, its diferent and sorry but I call 25.000 xp for 3 quests "better" considering how the maps start to get less and less side quests as we advance in the story.

Also those maps are a PvE challange, not a PvP challange.

Eclair · Jun 27, 2005, 08:43 PM // 20:43

The problem is people who want to go into UW/Fissure have almost no control over the favor. Think about, if they get a group and win the HoH, they'd have to leave in order go to Fissure/UW. However, if they leave, then they'll probably lose the favor, so they wouldn't be able to get into Fissure/Underworld even if they could hold the favor.

This means that they depend on other people holding the Hall of Heroes in order to enter Fissure/Underworld. Europe has a large disadvtange because its so divided, and the number of gamers there just doesn't compare to those of the Korean servers or American servers. The people who "immigrated" doesn't help the cause either.

Also, do people who hold the HoH actually play it for the favor? It seems to me that most of the guilds who consistantly hold the HoH seem content in just keeping the HoH, not really doing it as a way of getting into FIssure/Underworld.

Sandman Uk · Jun 27, 2005, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eclair

The problem is people who want to go into UW/Fissure have almost no control over the favor. Think about, if they get a group and win the HoH, they'd have to leave in order go to Fissure/UW. However, if they leave, then they'll probably lose the favor, so they wouldn't be able to get into Fissure/Underworld even if they could hold the favor.

This means that they depend on other people holding the Hall of Heroes in order to enter Fissure/Underworld. Europe has a large disadvtange because its so divided, and the number of gamers there just doesn't compare to those of the Korean servers or American servers. The people who "immigrated" doesn't help the cause either.

Also, do people who hold the HoH actually play it for the favor? It seems to me that most of the guilds who consistantly hold the HoH seem content in just keeping the HoH, not really doing it as a way of getting into FIssure/Underworld.

My Points exactly. Please Anet issue some stats that show the % of ownership in the HOH

Bet it reads
Usa 45%
Korea 45%
Europe 10%

And once won how many teams leave the halls to come to ToA.
Bet it reads
5% Total

Good idea on paper but doesnt work for Europe. PVP teams want fame points and journey up the Guild ladders thats their reward not opening UW/Fis thats for PVE

IT DONT MIX

Show me stats that show otherwise

Zeru · Jun 27, 2005, 09:00 PM // 21:00

the whole WaW concept is flawed, you're right. What's the point of having it if you can't control when you can go unless you hold HoH for 5 times or so. The two factors are completely opposite of each other and one should not depend on the other.

Imp · Jun 27, 2005, 09:11 PM // 21:11

While I agree that things should stay the same, I disagree that UW/Fissure is the same as all other PvE. I need a hefty amount of skill points, and it seems that UW and Fissure is the only good place to get them.

sphinx · Jun 27, 2005, 09:24 PM // 21:24

The best thing about fissure and uw are the massive xp rewards. At this point my ranger is running quite low on skill points and since hes not the best faming build i really can use the xp rewards from fissure and uw. Problem is though, i barely have access to them (i play on the european servers, so far have visited both one time..) done the missions, now i wanna get access to the "end game" pve content but for that i have to rely on europes pvp teams and it seems those koreans are playin like machines..

Dralon · Jun 27, 2005, 09:35 PM // 21:35

I really enjoyed the PVE portion of this game, and am re-running much of it with my alts. It is sad that I now have to wait until an expansion for more PVE content, as the UW/Fissure which sounds really cool is inaccessible to smaller guild groups much of the time due to the nature of pick up groups and getting enough guildies together at once.

Our guild in SWG encountered the same thing with the high end dungeons there. Not terribly difficult but taking more time and special builds our guild did not have.

Nature of the beast I guess.

LathalDraugr · Jun 27, 2005, 09:57 PM // 21:57

The current systems is unfair to Europeans or at least those that haven't migrated over to the American server as I suspect most english-speaking players have. Saying Europe doesn't deserve it because there are no European guilds capable or willing to win it frequently is illogical when you consider 99.9% of the people on the American and Korean servers don't deserve to be there either. They haven't won the HoH, they're just lucky enough to be live in the right place and use the right server (or in the case of the majority of UK and other english speaking Europeans, smart enough to move to a server where they have this advantage).

Personally I don't want to have to spend hours sitting around waiting on the off chance a European guild who is stubborn enough to take the inbuilt penalties of being on the European server winning the HoH and then having to drop whatever I'm doing in-game or IRL simply to get specific items or get to the only place to get decent high-end quests and XP. Maybe that kind of time investment into a game is some peoples idea of fun but personally it's not mine and wouldn't be even if I had that much time to spend on a game.

Europe as a whole just cannot compete with America and Korea in GW, even if there's a big push on the server for a unified effort. Not only are Europeans divided by language and culture but the gaming culture in Europe (which has never been particularly MMO friendly) and the low broadband saturation mean there just isn't the same population of hardcore PvPers on the European server. The only Europeans who gain from or are likely to support the current system are those who can afford to spend all day and night waiting for Europe to hold the HoH and then do UW/FoW runs knowing the unique or otherwise very rare items they find there will sell to players with less free time on their hands.

Not that I'm complaining too much. I'm not too bothered about UW/FoW myself and as a European gamer I'm pretty used to being screwed over by companies who see bigger markets and bigger profits elsewhere. By the usual standards of the industry A.net does alright and at least isn't intentionally making things more difficult for those of us too stubborn to move to the American server.

/edit Oh and a possible solution since this is the suggestion forum, instead of all ToA dungeons going to the winning server, the winning team dedicates thier victory to Balthazar or Grenth unlocking one of the dungeons. That way everyone could access the dungeons but there would still be battles over which "side" controls it. Better yet if guilds or players had to dedicate themselves to one god or another this would lead to more balance since natural competitiveness between the top guilds would hopefully do more to balance the rewards than the current system where Americans and Koreans just have to log in at the right time and Europeans have to hang around all day.

Sandman Uk · Jun 27, 2005, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by LathalDraugr

/edit Oh and a possible solution since this is the suggestion forum, instead of all ToA dungeons going to the winning server, the winning team dedicates thier victory to Balthazar or Grenth unlocking one of the dungeons. That way everyone could access the dungeons but there would still be battles over which "side" controls it. Better yet if guilds or players had to dedicate themselves to one god or another this would lead to more balance since natural competitiveness between the top guilds would hopefully do more to balance the rewards than the current system where Americans and Koreans just have to log in at the right time and Europeans have to hang around all day.

Excellent idea

That would keep me happy. Im a PVE and just need something to challenge me. Keep my interest in the game till the new content and purchasable content come along. You have taken away farming you gave three new quests that took 30mins to complete all three. Please take the next update to give us moaning whinging lvl20+ something to do. "We have not forgot about you" Quote from the man himself doest install me with confidence its comming this week either.

In a Bob Geldoff impression Sandman slams his hand on the table and says
"I WANT YOUR CHALENGING CONTENT AND I WANT IT NOW"

Snipe Kan · Jun 27, 2005, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sandman Uk

Although it seemed to me a good idea at the time regarding the region holding the HoH have access to the underworld. It is now apparent that Europe stinks at PVP play and very rarely have the opertunity to visit the Underword.

A lot of the complaints regarding finishing the game and have nothing to do seems to come from Europeans (Me included).

Wouldnt it be a better idea to open them up and charge more to enter say 5k . divided by 8 players deducted on entering. This would generate a very good gold sink and open up the game for the lvl20+ type who have finished the game and await the underworld opening through PVP play.

Just a thourght dont reply all agressive

Good Points Bad points only please

im sorry but this is the 3rd time this week ive heard about a UK person complaining about HoH.. i see them having it alot for my concern. so stop complaining.. plz just go and win in the HoH by yourself if you want it open so badly.. or go post in the thread that has already started this complaining!

mylilpony · Jun 27, 2005, 11:19 PM // 23:19

EUROPe just won the Hall of Heroes.

go now!!