Curse

Mawgleah · Jul 09, 2005, 12:45 PM // 12:45

I have to say that I have no interest in PvP, nor do I think ArenaNet crafted GW to steer you toward this mode of play. I believe that ArenaNet crafted GW to appeal to both types of players

I'm extremely new to this type of gaming and only got involved at the urging of a friend who wanted us to be able to play online together. GW wasn't what I expected and I have enjoyed myself throughly. Because I had no idea what I was doing, I spent much of my time learning how to acquire those skills necessary to stay alive during a quest or a mission. Because my friend and I are half a world apart, our playing time is limited, so I did most of the quests and missions with henchmen. I can tell you, I've learned a lot over the past couple of months and have enjoyed the lessons.

With this background, I can now say that I would not like to be forced to use a tutorial, but I think they are a good idea if someone else would like to use them.

Indigo · Jul 09, 2005, 07:06 PM // 19:06

I have a question. No kerosene here... Just a simple series of questions...

Isn't there a "Tutorial Area" already in place? Isn't it colloquially known as "Pre-Searing"?

While it doesn't specifically give you tips, hints or pointers on Mob-management, shouldn't the average player be able to figure these things out by doing? Do we need to rote teach everything?

Acheus Lokine · Jul 09, 2005, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indigo

I have a question. No kerosene here... Just a simple series of questions...

Isn't there a "Tutorial Area" already in place? Isn't it colloquially known as "Pre-Searing"?

While it doesn't specifically give you tips, hints or pointers on Mob-management, shouldn't the average player be able to figure these things out by doing? Do we need to rote teach everything?

Clearly players need to be taught more and/or better, in case you haven't seen the calibre of players in even the Crystal Desert. Lv20s who don't know what "call target" is? That's just not right.

I fully agree with putting more tutorial missions in rather than just jumping right into missions in Ascalon. I best liked the idea of an Academy in post-searing Ascalon, I forget who posted it. Really, though, as long as there was some way for the newer players to get educated in the ways of Guild Wars, that would be wonderful and would definitely bring up the standard of intelligence.

Indigo · Jul 09, 2005, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acheus Lokine

Clearly players need to be taught more and/or better, in case you haven't seen the calibre of players in even the Crystal Desert. Lv20s who don't know what "call target" is? That's just not right.

I fully agree with putting more tutorial missions in rather than just jumping right into missions in Ascalon. I best liked the idea of an Academy in post-searing Ascalon, I forget who posted it. Really, though, as long as there was some way for the newer players to get educated in the ways of Guild Wars, that would be wonderful and would definitely bring up the standard of intelligence.

I disagree. I think if you hand the player a book/movie/point-by-point tutorial on "how to play effectively", rather than letting the player learn it, you end up with a more lazy player than we already have. Not all players are like the stereotypes that are thrown throughout the forum. There are good players out there, and they aren't as rare, or endangered as most might think. One of the things I've most enjoyed about this game is learning various gameplay aspects about it, while playing the game. Whether on my own, or from other players, it's been great to discover things about this game. Discovery IMO is a much better teacher than handing the player a list of everything the game does.

If the good players of this game want to "bring up the standard of [play]" (as intelligence is not something that you, or anyone else, can control), then instead of simply getting disgusted at a "level 20 who doesn't know how to target/attack called target", teach the player how to do it. If he/she doesn't get it after you fully explain it, then he/she probably won't get it, and you need to move on. The best tutorial that we, the community, have is each other.

Pay it forward. Applies to knowledge as well as fair play.

JoDiamonds · Jul 10, 2005, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indigo

I disagree. I think if you hand the player a book/movie/point-by-point tutorial on "how to play effectively", rather than letting the player learn it, you end up with a more lazy player than we already have.

I disagree with that. Leave the strategy up for learning, but unless another player tells them, or they extensively read forums (which a vast majority of players don't), then they just won't know about some things. Everyone should at least be told of what exists. They'll still have to figure out the best way to use it.

I certainly wasn't upset about anything that does get told to you when you play through all of Pre-Searing. I would have liked to have been told about targeting, for instance, at some point. And I think it's not unreasonable to just point out, even in some text during a Pre-Searing quest or whatever, that most caster classes should try to avoid melee combat. This might seem obvious to some people, but certainly not all.

Quote:

The best tutorial that we, the community, have is each other.

That is definitely true, in all communities everywhere. But that doesn't mean Arena Net can't help out. =)

ducktape · Jul 10, 2005, 01:21 AM // 01:21

I think it would work better if you don't make everyone do the expanded tutorials. If you're on your 3rd or 4th character that *would* be annoying. Add an Academy to post-searing Ascalon so that everyone gets to decide whether or not they want more training. If people care about learning tactics they'll go there on their own. If they don't care about tactics, they'll have a hard time grouping as the game progresses. At that point, if nobody likes grouping with you because you don't know how to play in a group, it's your own fault. Getting killed all the time might make level 20s in the desert go back and see if they can pick up some "tricks". Have an Instructor guy at the academy with some sort of menu:
Teach me how to fight large groups of enemies
Teach me how to make my energy last longer
Teach me how to provide support to a party
Teach me how to protect the monk

And so on. A good player will go through them all at least once to make sure there isn't something there to learn that they haven't already learned on their own.

Indigo · Jul 10, 2005, 01:35 AM // 01:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoDiamonds

I disagree with that.

Fair enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoDiamonds

Leave the strategy up for learning, but unless another player tells them, or they extensively read forums (which a vast majority of players don't), then they just won't know about some things. Everyone should at least be told of what exists. They'll still have to figure out the best way to use it.

I asked for help, in game no less, about things I didn't understand. Most of the time, I was helped with little to no grief at all from the person with "knowledge". Why do I need to go through something like a tutorial, or extra content, when I can ask someone?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoDiamonds

I certainly wasn't upset about anything that does get told to you when you play through all of Pre-Searing. I would have liked to have been told about targeting, for instance, at some point. And I think it's not unreasonable to just point out, even in some text during a Pre-Searing quest or whatever, that most caster classes should try to avoid melee combat. This might seem obvious to some people, but certainly not all.

I was happy for the information in pre-searing as well. I'm not intending to give any impression to the contrary. But, I think the pre-searing area does a fair job of going over game mechanics, and basics in that area. I got a sheet of cardboard with my game that outlined all the keys used in game. Some were self explanatory, others I had to ask about. But the whole game was not handed to me on a platter. I had to do everything myself, and find out how it was done.

If it's not obvious to the average Necro/Mesmer/Ranger/Monk/Elementalist that they shouldn't be up front with the Warriors, and can't learn from Death Penalty, a tutorial telling Skippy to stay in the back won't help much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoDiamonds

That is definitely true, in all communities everywhere. But that doesn't mean Arena Net can't help out. =)

To a point, but why should they have to, when we could do it without any real hassle. We're playing the game anyway right? How hard is it to type "Press T to attack my target, it's better if you do that" or "Press CTRL+T to call your own target". Might be a pleasant change from "omg u suck noob" and "LISTN 2 ME I NO THIS MISH"

Indigo · Jul 10, 2005, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by ducktape

I think it would work better if you don't make everyone do the expanded tutorials. If you're on your 3rd or 4th character that *would* be annoying. Add an Academy to post-searing Ascalon so that everyone gets to decide whether or not they want more training. If people care about learning tactics they'll go there on their own. If they don't care about tactics, they'll have a hard time grouping as the game progresses. At that point, if nobody likes grouping with you because you don't know how to play in a group, it's your own fault. Getting killed all the time might make level 20s in the desert go back and see if they can pick up some "tricks". Have an Instructor guy at the academy with some sort of menu:
Teach me how to fight large groups of enemies
Teach me how to make my energy last longer
Teach me how to provide support to a party
Teach me how to protect the monk

And so on. A good player will go through them all at least once to make sure there isn't something there to learn that they haven't already learned on their own.

Now that is a good idea. As long as the content is optional, and I can visit it whenever I choose (like an in help menu with activities), I like it.

JoDiamonds · Jul 10, 2005, 04:08 AM // 04:08

Everything should always be optional. You should assume that any suggestion someone else makes that can be optional should be.

=-}

JoDiamonds · Jul 10, 2005, 04:35 AM // 04:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indigo

I asked for help, in game no less, about things I didn't understand. Most of the time, I was helped with little to no grief at all from the person with "knowledge". Why do I need to go through something like a tutorial, or extra content, when I can ask someone?

A lot of people may not be as outgoing as you are. That's the short answer.

Also, note that I never said you have to go through extra content. I'm just asking for it to be available.

Quote:

I was happy for the information in pre-searing as well. I'm not intending to give any impression to the contrary. But, I think the pre-searing area does a fair job of going over game mechanics, and basics in that area. I got a sheet of cardboard with my game that outlined all the keys used in game. Some were self explanatory, others I had to ask about. But the whole game was not handed to me on a platter. I had to do everything myself, and find out how it was done.

Is that strictly a good thing? I understand what you are saying, but not everyone wants it that way. It's great that you figured it out, but different people want things different ways.

I guess part of my point was that it's unlikely that the amount of information in Pre-Academy was "just right". There's always room for improvement, so if people don't feel like there's too much information forced onto them, then having more would probably be good.

Quote:

If it's not obvious to the average Necro/Mesmer/Ranger/Monk/Elementalist that they shouldn't be up front with the Warriors, and can't learn from Death Penalty, a tutorial telling Skippy to stay in the back won't help much.

You'd be amazed. Seriously. People just don't know these things. For at least some group of people, they have never touched anything having to do with fantasy, even. How should they know what something called Mesmer means? In fact, how should anyone?

I don't mean to insult anyone by saying this; there's just a lot of people who don't know things, or don't think about them much. Even if the only result is a few more people think about it and figure something out, I think it's worth it.

Imagine you start playing. You make a Mesmer because you like their clothes. They are spiffy, after all. You play a bunch, and die a bunch. But you don't really know why you are dying. Maybe you notice other people die more, or less, or maybe you don't. But even if you notice, if this is the first game of this kind you've played (which for many people, it is), you are probably overwhelmed by the amount of stuff to learn and do, and ignore most of it. I think it would actually be quite easy to not really understand what's going on. You don't see the armor values of other player's, after all. You only see the result, which are probably still confusing. Sometimes you win, and you are happy, and sometimes you don't, and you are sad. Even I don't always know why I've won or lost. For people new to computer games, it must be mind boggling.

(I don't pull this card out much, but I've written game tutorials before. It's hard, and people really do need them. They are so important to have, and to be good.)

Quote:

To a point, but why should they have to, when we could do it without any real hassle. We're playing the game anyway right? How hard is it to type "Press T to attack my target, it's better if you do that" or "Press CTRL+T to call your own target". Might be a pleasant change from "omg u suck noob" and "LISTN 2 ME I NO THIS MISH"

Well, I hope you aren't expecting the people who say such things to change. That's part of the reason why I'd like to see it; help isn't always available. Also, something official will answer questions better than most people will.

It's a nice idea to think that we're a loving community and everyone will help everyone else all the time, but it doesn't always work out that way. And would probably work better if people had the easy option of being better informed. =)

Helios · Jul 10, 2005, 07:07 AM // 07:07

I was gonna say that these people need to look at the freakin game manual, but at second glance, it says nothing about target-calling. Maybe its just late for me and I missed it, but I didn't see it. Anyway, I think I had to learn targetting from a fellow guild-mate. Some people don't have that luxury. But I still find it hard to miss assisting when you see "I'm attacking such-and-such. Press 'T' to select my target!" I find that is lack of cooperation and an unwillingness to be helpful.
The manual also doesn't mention the ctrl display command (showing health, energy, dp and such...) I think if it was in the manual, maybe more people would be educated.
However, the aggro circle is mentioned, so I have little patience for people who aggro things left and right. I know some people won't read the manual anyway. If its because they learned the commands on their own or a guildmate or someone else showed them, fine, good for you, you saved yourself the trouble of reading it. To me, someone not knowing aggro is like stepping into a vehicle with someone and halfway to your destination, to tell them to hit the brake and they ask you what it is. I know its a dramatic comparison, but I hope it gets the point across. In either case, something essential that someone should know, but doesn't, will get everyone else in trouble.

Basically...
1) It's the player's fault for not knowing what's in the manual.
2) It's other player's faults for not showing new people what is not in the manual.
3) It's ANet's fault for not including all the commands in the manual.

Also, I think the manual should mention how changing attributes would be beneficial instead of just basically saying, "You can have up to 24 attribute refund points. Using them refunds your attribute points to use them differently." Most people won't think to use another attribute for a different type of situation.
/end rant
BTW, I apologize if any part of my post doesn't make sense or if I come off as extremely bitter. I was grouchy and half-asleep when I wrote it.

Cymmina · Jul 10, 2005, 01:38 PM // 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helios

But I still find it hard to miss assisting when you see "I'm attacking such-and-such. Press 'T' to select my target!" I find that is lack of cooperation and an unwillingness to be helpful.

It doesn't say that anymore. It just says "I'm attacking such-and-such", the "Press 'T' to select my target!" was dropped at the end of beta for some bazaar reason. If I hadn't played beta, I wouldn't have known how to target, either. This *seriously* needs to be restored to the way it was in beta. Though, it's not like it's hard to click on the targeting thingie on the party menu... that works just like 'T' as well..

People have been conditioned to ignore tool tips. This is painfully obvious when they ask questions like "where's storage?" in pre-searing when one of the *many* tool tips that comes up says that there's storage once you leave the academy. It doesn't help that many of the tool tips are improperly timed, especially the skill related ones. Oh, I've been hurt, I should use [insert basic self heal] to heal myself. That would have been handy to know 5 minutes ago when I was actually in the middle of a fight and getting hurt.

Ducktape's suggestion about a post-searing adademy is an excellent suggestion. I'd think it was even better if I knew people would actually use it. People just want to rush in and learn for themselves, much to the disappointment of the people they get grouped with.

Quote:

You make a Mesmer because you like their clothes. They are spiffy, after all. You play a bunch, and die a bunch. But you don't really know why you are dying. [...]You don't see the armor values of other player's, after all. You only see the result, which are probably still confusing.

How can anyone think spiffy silk/linen clothes gives you the same amount of protection as a warrior running around in platemail or a ranger with studded leather armor? My roommate was grouped with an elementalist in the Crystal Desert who complained they were still wearing Lion's Arch armor (30 AR, Amnoon has 51 AR and collectors offer 60 AR), so they were clearly aware of their subpar armor rating. Yet, they were the first one to rush in and take agro. I had a warrior in the Ring of Fire mission almost 2 months ago who happened to notice they were still wearing some pre-searing armor pieces! Try explaining that to me.

(Doesn't the character creation say that mesmers are an advanced class, or did they remove that? I forget.)

Indigo · Jul 10, 2005, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoDiamonds

Well, I hope you aren't expecting the people who say such things to change. That's part of the reason why I'd like to see it; help isn't always available. Also, something official will answer questions better than most people will.

It's a nice idea to think that we're a loving community and everyone will help everyone else all the time, but it doesn't always work out that way. And would probably work better if people had the easy option of being better informed. =)

But see, that's the problem isn't it? I suggest that we should help each other, instead of waiting for A.net to start the rote teaching portion of GW, and someone like you tells me how it will be "easier" to wait.

Well, of course it will. It takes no effort on anyone's part (aside from the developers) to let a "n00b" go through a tutorial. It takes no effort to hope that they will take everything in the imaginary tutorial area to heart. Unfortunatly, this looks less like a concerned "informed player" hoping to help new players everywhere, and more like a way to point a finger at a new player who may have skipped something, or had a momentary lapse of common sense "you saw the tutorial didn't you N00b?".

I don't necessarily want a loving community. That isn't possible. But to say help isn't available is, in essence, not true. Any time there is a player in a group that knows something that any of the other players don't, there is an opportunity to teach, and an opportunity to learn. If players would lose the 12 year old "l337" mentality, and help their fellow players, this would be a much better game.

A tutorial area is a nice idea. But it's wholly unnecessary when you have knowledge that other players don't. Instead of poking fun of them. Or typing in all caps at them when they don't do what you want, calmly explain what they need to be doing. They'll get it eventually. This is a game. Not a job. We don't need on the job training, any more than we already have.

JoDiamonds · Jul 10, 2005, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indigo

But see, that's the problem isn't it? I suggest that we should help each other, instead of waiting for A.net to start the rote teaching portion of GW, and someone like you tells me how it will be "easier" to wait.

Woot, now I'm "someone like you".

Also, who suggested waiting? I don't understand at all where that comes from. Did anyone suggest that helping other people is bad?

Quote:

A tutorial area is a nice idea. But it's wholly unnecessary when you have knowledge that other players don't. Instead of poking fun of them. Or typing in all caps at them when they don't do what you want, calmly explain what they need to be doing. They'll get it eventually. This is a game. Not a job. We don't need on the job training, any more than we already have.

Do you not understand my point? You are trying to change human nature. This is like being in a relationship that isn't working and trying to change the other person. It doesn't work. Ever.

Aside: You also strongly imply (whether or not you meant to) that anyone who is in favor of a tutorial, especially me, goes around insulting people, and gosh darn it, if we'd just be nice a tutorial would be pointless. That's just probably not true for most people who bother to post on forums (trolls excepted). I help people all the time. But I'm no replacement for a good tutorial. Even if I wanted to, I can't educate everyone in Guild Wars, and most of them wouldn't want me to. Many people would prefer to go through a computer guided tutorial to learn things without being embarassed that they don't know it already, rather than bother humans. (Sure, if you have close friends who play the game it may be different, but the most important group to teach is the group without any good friends to teach them... so they can bring in other players.)

The people who are nice will be nice, and the jerks will be jerks, and you can't change that. None of us can.

Have the wisdom to understand the things we can't change. A tutorial is something that could be changed. =)

hotspur · Jul 10, 2005, 09:30 PM // 21:30

I love this kinda talk, everyone getting all upset about who is playing the game right. lol, cmon folks, play the game how YOU want to play it, thats the point, this is a hobby not an occcupation.