Curse

Stev0 · Jul 16, 2005, 05:43 PM // 17:43

/signed

Even though my average playtime is down to 15mins/day average.

Thomasuwoo · Jul 16, 2005, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by =HT=Ingram

man you people are crazy. Drops for me have increased since the last update. both gold and purple. Main reason... I DONT FARM OUT AREAS LIKE THEY ARE GOING OUT OF STYLE. DON"T FARM, just play the game. there is plenty to be got just from that. I see NO new players complaining.. only you babies crying cause there are other ways to get the runes and materials you want to inflate again. And all the gold getting pulled out of the game finally may the gold piece worth something again. You want some gold... go play PvP for a while and get a sigil. bingo more then enough for anyone. then continue playing Pve and get you uber armors or whatever you want. All this has done is cut out the resellers from having both BUYERS and Supplies to continue their inflated tendencies. and It has also made it EXTREAMLY hard for Gold resellers to stay in business.

I praise Arenanet for their efforts, and hope they keep it up.

Ah so I'm not the only one! jeez guys Instead of wasting your time here on the forum complaining try this. All pm each other and add yourselfs the new (now expaneded) friends list. Go to pedition rock and clear the isle. I get plenty of loot here with human payers. Farming SOLO is not on. It destroys the communty because:
1. It brings in large amounts of gold into the communty
2. It Isolates the communty. Who wants to go out adventuring with others when it's easier more profitable to adventure solo?

Cmon. Grab ur gear and get out there TOGETHER.

/against

Thomasuwoo · Jul 16, 2005, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by programexpert

/Signed!!

I've been playing the game for only a few weeks and I must say I love it... But I can't get anything good enough to stay alive... If it was only skill based, I'd practically never die, but because I got a bad armor, I do. And when the runs I do hardly give me anything, and that these things are bought by the NPC Traders for 5% of the real value, I am having problems to keep some Expert Salvage Kits in my inventory!

And how am I supposed to get this 54 platinium for a Guild Hall with such a low income?

We don't. We WIN the sigil in the HOH.

hidden_agenda · Jul 16, 2005, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanas

The game concept has been explicit from the start. The fact of the matter is ther is a large group of you out there who cannot bring yourselves to learn a new style of play i.e. one that isnt item orientated. I loved Diablo2, but this game is different, new and refreshing. So please stop and think before you moan!!

ok -- how about this -- if the game isn't about items (to some degree) -- why was the effort even put in to create the various different 75k armor sets? now that i think about it, i realized that there are more varieties of 75k armor than armors at any other price point!

i would argue that your interpretation of the Anet quote is incorrect. what anet was saying was that "power-wise" the game isn't about items. i.e. getting better items wouldn't give you more power -- which is true.

however, once you finished most of the game or consumed much of the content, the longevity of the game (i.e. replay value) is GREATLY dependent on the items.

to a large degree, i give kudos to anet to realize that people will pay as much for "looks" as they do for "substance" -- but...

the game definitely has an item aspect and the need for balanced economy that has NOT been addressed.

ManadartheHealer · Jul 16, 2005, 06:08 PM // 18:08

/signed

Nerfing drops is NOT the way to even stop farming (which I enjoy doing sometimes). It just screws over anyone who has not amassed a fortune already

Samorn · Jul 16, 2005, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by YellowMarker161

This IS causing inflation on item sales. Now since nobody can find a max damage stormbox with good mods, the ones that weren't yet sold have been auctioned off at amazingly high prices. It's causing the farmers who stocked up on items beforehand to become richer, while leaving us in the dust because we will never be able to obtain the cash to keep up.

Again, what ANet is doing is counter-productive. The only thing that is changing with "MMORPG selling sites" is that the demand is increasing because of the nerfs, causing many players to buy off these sites. Increased demand causes increasing prices, and these increasing prices will cause heavy botters to farm more AND they will make even more money then before.

Hmm, lets see exactly how much that "little bit harder" really looks like.
15 per piece x 5 pieces = 75k
~120 ectoplasm or whatever at 10k each(below reg price, BTW) = 1200k
Total cost = 1,275,000 gold

Wahoo, at 1k an hour, you can get your 15k armour in approxiametly 1,275 hours of nonstop farming. That means you only have to farm for a little over 53 straight days. Yippee!

Exactly. The rich getting richer, and the poor staying poor is exactly how the game should stay.

You have your opinon on things and I have mine Yellowmarker, but I still stand by what I said.

DFrost · Jul 16, 2005, 06:19 PM // 18:19

The general crappiness of drops is one thing, but I'm also wondering how they are distributed. When some people make posts about their farm runs, they usually get a gold item every now and then. I have played 100+ hours with my characters and have got 0 black dyes, 0 superior runes and 2 gold drops in the process. And none of those gold drops happened when I was farming (one at Northern Shiverpeaks, the other outside Bergen Hot Springs). Maybe I have just bad luck or there's something about distributing drops I haven't understood.

Thomasuwoo · Jul 16, 2005, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Hey how about some of you farmers reply to our posts of farming as a group? They've been majorly ignored so far. Tell us why you should be aloud to farm solo rather then in a group AND claim it would be good for the economy or communtiy. If you just ignore us like this I'm certian Anet would be happy to ignore you in the same manner.

Kashrlyyk · Jul 16, 2005, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanas

The game concept has been explicit from the start. The fact of the matter is ther is a large group of you out there who cannot bring yourselves to learn a new style of play i.e. one that isnt item orientated. I loved Diablo2, but this game is different, new and refreshing. So please stop and think before you moan!!

It has been explicit for the few people following the development! But a lot more people just go in a store, see the game, read the description and make a decision because of it! And on my CE box it doesn´t state anything of the things said in the interviews!

And the last interview is just a commercial for the game! I am pretty sure that in PvE and PvP time played is an important factor! You need to learn your character and the skills. And having certain skills is sometimes a very important thing, too!

Good thing is that pretty soon you reach that point, where you know your character in a basic kind of way! But someone, who played longer, knows exactly how to beat you up!

Xeno Demachilo · Jul 16, 2005, 07:18 PM // 19:18

All of you trying to ruin this thread by posting things that are the opposite of what we're trying to acheive, its not helping.

When Arenanet nerfed all the nice spots of obtaining nice items, and money, they also nerfed the economy. You get about..20k to play through the game i would guess, as i got about 10 to Droknars Forge (It Varies) I have about..60 Good hours of playing on that character. Now..I saw a person selling Gold Armor for 30k yesterday. What, are we supposed to play for 180 Hours on one character to have the POSSIBILITY of unlocking a superior rune, that more than likely will turn around and be worth 2000 gold?

Now that you have played 180 hours running through the missions again, you decide you want that nice armor costing 15k a peice.(60k) Figure, it took you 180 hours to make the 30k, so its gunna take you twice that to get 60k, and since you spent all the money you earned on that armor that was a peice of junk, your going to need to play through all the missions AGAIN, and end up with 540 hours played.

Now lets say you are on a strict schedule, with only 2-3 hours of playing time a day. Sometimes less. Its going to take you ~270 days to acheive all this. Now is this how Arena Net wanted it? I think not. They say you should "play through all the missions to gain money" Well.. Not all of us have 270 freaking days to do that in order to get 1, a peice of junk yellow armor, and 2, the 60k armor that has no difference from the 7k.

I could see spending, oh about a week to acheive all this, not about 9 months.. Just put back farming, it cant hurt the economy anymore than you have. And if you say you made the game so that it doesnt rely on items, Please, Please, tell me why it matters if we all have the ones we want and can obtain them by ourselves? Beleive me, Arena Net is on its way to ruining a perfectly good game.

(All numbers are based on if you reach Droknars/the ShiverPeaks and decide you want that armor so bad your not going any further until you get it.)

sunny_g · Jul 16, 2005, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomasuwoo

Hey how about some of you farmers reply to our posts of farming as a group? They've been majorly ignored so far. Tell us why you should be aloud to farm solo rather then in a group AND claim it would be good for the economy or communtiy. If you just ignore us like this I'm certian Anet would be happy to ignore you in the same manner.

1. there is an overhead involved in getting people together - some of us with less time than others would rather be playing then msg'ng "<class> LFG farm <loc>" in the towns for 20 minutes.

2. the random drop is for groups unbalanced in GW - i believe the algorithm may be something as trivial as randomly generated loot gets randomly assigned -- value of the drop is not taken into account AT ALL.

i am sure everyone has heard of the FoW / UW runs that has extremely uneven results. well, here is another one: i've gone on runs and gotten nothing but demonic remains while there were 7 shards dropped, 4 given to one player, 3 to another. to me, this is a waste of my time.

3. some of us really dislike having to deal with immature behavior (whether the behavior is from kids or adults is irrelevant). in fact, in many cases, i would rather work with hench than players -- if not for the fact that the hench are so stupid...

4. it's one thing to coordinate people to accomplish something and get paid (part of my day job) for it. it's another thing trying to relax by playing a game and having to coordinate / manage people.

There - your post has now been responded and you know the reason why some of us prefer solo play.

jasony · Jul 16, 2005, 07:57 PM // 19:57

/signed

I am not a big fan a farming, I find fun in other things like pvp. I dont see why people should not be allowed to farm though. I think if the increased the number of good drops it would actually help them of the goal of equal playing ground. If there are more of the good items out there the prices will drop and everyone will be able to have the same good items for cheap. I say if people want to farm let them. I dont care how much you farm, it is not going to effect me much, since I just want to play.

Thanas · Jul 16, 2005, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by hidden_agenda

ok -- how about this -- if the game isn't about items (to some degree) -- why was the effort even put in to create the various different 75k armor sets? now that i think about it, i realized that there are more varieties of 75k armor than armors at any other price point!

i would argue that your interpretation of the Anet quote is incorrect. what anet was saying was that "power-wise" the game isn't about items. i.e. getting better items wouldn't give you more power -- which is true.

however, once you finished most of the game or consumed much of the content, the longevity of the game (i.e. replay value) is GREATLY dependent on the items.

to a large degree, i give kudos to anet to realize that people will pay as much for "looks" as they do for "substance" -- but...

the game definitely has an item aspect and the need for balanced economy that has NOT been addressed.

Of course the game has items, but the fact that it does does not automaically make it item orientated, since this is not where the focus is. The items are as I read in another interview, which I cannnot find, easter eggs. They are things to work towards but are not easily attained. If you have completely unlocked everything in the game including all items, all characters, all skills and discovered all areas and done all missions, bonuses etc, Then perhaps you should

a) Stop playing so much

b) Create a guild and help guild members
c) Have a go at PvP to help your region get favour, then play UW or FoW.

Heres some food for thought!!!! I'd like to point out that there is a huge number of skill combinations which I'm pretty sure you haven't tried out.

If you calculate the possible number of characters which have unique skill sets ignoring those that aren't 2 class characters there are 24. Now for each of these characters there 150 skills at their disposal. From these 150 skills are 8 they must choose. To calculate the number of skills permutations there are for each character we use:

150 PICK 8 = 150p8 = 150!/(150-8)! = 150!/152!

Where 1!=1; 2! =1*2; 3!=1*2*3; 4!=1*2*3*4;

therefore 150!/142! = (1*2*3*4.....*150)/(1*2*3*4*.....*142) = 143*144*145*146*147*148*149*150 = 211,970,764,029,024,000 = 211 quadrillion or 211,970 trillion

Therefore there are approximately 200 quadrillion skill combinations for each character. Now As I said intially there are 24 possible multiple character combinations. This leads us to oh 5 quintillion character permutations.

To make this number understandable. Say you attempted to try all these skill combinations and tried one every hour it would take you oh about 600 trillion years. Oh our sun would have died by then with a lifespan of only about 10 billion years. What a shame! So please the time it takes you to collect your items pales in comparison to the time it takes to test the skills in this game. If anyone should be complaining it should be those who actually enjoy the core escence of this game i.e. the skills. We can't possibly try them all out, it takes too long!

sunny_g · Jul 16, 2005, 08:03 PM // 20:03

/sign

I used to play Living Greyhawk (aka LG: a pen-n-paper DnD "massive multi-player campaign" if you will). Then I stopped.

Why? Because the people who managed LG kept on modifying the rules for "game-balance" reasons. Similarly, I am on the verge of stop playing GW due to the designer's "game-balancing".

Now, I am not saying that modifying a game for "game-balance" reasons is bad. What I am saying is that modifying a game for "game-balance" reasons is really something that out to be EXTREMELY RARE and considered EXTREMELY CAREFULLY before being done.

----> NOT SOMETHING to be done every chance you get.

After all, everyone is playing the game for FUN. The problem with game balancing is that quite often the designers would game-balance the FUN right out of a game.

hidden_agenda · Jul 16, 2005, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanas

Of course the game has items, but the fact that it does does not automaically make it item orientated, since this is not where the focus is. The items are as I read in another interview, which I cannnot find, easter eggs. They are things to work towards but are not easily attained. If you have completely unlocked everything in the game including all items, all characters, all skills and discovered all areas and done all missions, bonuses etc

Okay, I think we are quibbling here. My belief is that the game (in particular the end-game) is about BOTH skills and items. You seem to be saying that it's either items or skills. I would argue that it's both. For the people not interested in PvP, the acquisition of the items represents the motive for using the skills.

Solo'ing near impossible areas provides the motivation to experiment with the different skills.

So pointing out the number of skill combinations is somewhat pointless. Also, I happen to have a degree in Applied-Math, so I would like to think I can read numbers.

Finally, since you wanted to do numbers, I would point out that you can only have 1 elite on your skill bar at a time, so there are permutations in your combinations that are invalid (such as any of those that involves multiple elites). Also, sig of cap does represent a skill - and one that can be repeated across the bar, so there is another monkey wrench in your calculation...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanas

Then perhaps you should

a) Stop playing so much
b) Create a guild and help guild members
c) Have a go at PvP to help your region get favour, then play UW or FoW.

a) i only play ~2-3 hours per day
b) i am the leader of my own guild, i do help others in my guild --> thank you very much
c) i hate pvp
d) i do play UW and FoW

perhaps you should (I am saying all of these in good nature, so take it easy...

)
a) assume fewer things about me
b) look at things from less of a A vs B perspective
c) look more at the real problem this thread points to (an bad approach taken to try to fix an online economy)

Thanas · Jul 16, 2005, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by hidden_agenda

Okay, I think we are quibbling here. My belief is that the game (in particular the end-game) is about BOTH skills and items. You seem to be saying that it's either items or skills. I would argue that it's both. For the people not interested in PvP, the acquisition of the items represents the motive for using the skills.

The items should not infuence you to use skills. SInce the items themselves give you very little in the way of an advantage. Try using no skills and only your weapon and see how far you get. I'm not saying its one or the other at all. What I am trying to re-inforce however is that skills take prescendance over the weapons and armour etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hidden_agenda

Solo'ing near impossible areas provides the motivation to experiment with the different skills.

Granted, but those near impossible areas do not equate to farming areas. Farming areas are locations which are near to spawns where you can kill monsters, collect items and gold and then rinse and repeat. This allows you to aquire large amounts of gold over small periods of time. Many difficult areas exist. For example go to north east mineral springs. There is a huge number of fire imps and a strange boss creature in the cave beyond.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hidden_agenda

So pointing out the number of skill combinations is somewhat pointless. Also, I happen to have a degree in Applied-Math, so I would like to think I can read numbers.

Finally, since you wanted to do numbers, I would point out that you can only have 1 elite on your skill bar at a time, so there are permutations in your combinations that are invalid (such as any of those that involves multiple elites). Also, sig of cap does represent a skill - and one that can be repeated across the bar, so there is another monkey wrench in your calculation...

I won't dispute the number issue. However This won't change the values to a huge degree and I'm sure you'll agree that the numbers will still be large. Exact number are not necessary here, just magnitudes and these were to illustrate a point i.e. that the game is skill orienated and that you in fact hadn't or could not explore all facets of the game. The point was entirely justified since you brought up the issue 'what am I going to do when I've done everything'. What I'm saying is that you'll never do everything!

Quote:

Originally Posted by hidden_agenda

a) i only play ~2-3 hours per day
b) i am the leader of my own guild, i do help others in my guild --> thank you very much
c) i hate pvp
d) i do play UW and FoW

perhaps you should (I am saying all of these in good nature, so take it easy...

)
a) assume fewer things about me
b) look at things from less of a A vs B perspective
c) look more at the real problem this thread points to (an bad approach taken to try to fix an online economy)

I'm cool. I didn't assume anything I simply gave you options. One thing I will ask however is how have you completed the game in such a short amount of time, since you only play 2-3 hours a day and from all your previous comments it appears you have completed the game. I mean to make such comments you must have finsished right?

I don't see the this fix as a simple solution to fix the economy. Although that is an issue. I also see it as a way to promote the real focus of the game. Farming promotes an item based mentality. Please tell me what is the focus of farming in you honest opinion? Items or skills? Then tell me by consdiering my previous arguments, what the game wishes to promote first and foremost, the items or the skills? Then you will understand the point I am trying to make. You may consider this an A/B perspective. However when it comes down to it. something has to take more prescendance and I belive it to be the skills. So if removing farming areas helps to maintain this I'm all for it!

(p.s I have a degree in Physics and Astrophysics)

hidden_agenda · Jul 16, 2005, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanas

The items should not infuence you to use skills. SInce the items themselves give you very little in the way of an advantage. Try using no skills and only your weapon and see how far you get. I'm not saying its one or the other at all. What I am trying to re-inforce however is that skills take prescendance over the weapons and armour etc.

let me re-iterate: the items provided the MOTIVATION for me to use the skills. that is, in order to get the items, i play the game. many of the items are (as i've mentioned in my original post) just "looks". call me virtually "vain" if you will, but i like my character to look good (or evil).

so my point is that, at least for me, skills are the MEANS and items are the ENDs. to be honest, i find experimenting with skills and figuring out what stacks with what to be somewhat boring. without the goal of getting something for it (in this case the items), i'll probably be playing something different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanas

Granted, but those near impossible areas do not equate to farming areas. Farming areas are locations which are near to spawns where you can kill monsters, collect items and gold and then rinse and repeat. This allows you to aquire large amounts of gold over small periods of time. Many difficult areas exist. For example go to north east mineral springs. There is a huge number of fire imps and a strange boss creature in the cave beyond.

Actually, Anet's definition of "farming" is anytime you entered an area solo (and possibly: kill something). The more times you do this, the less loot is dropped. This happens even if: a) you killed only one guy and it took you 20 minutes. b) you got killed everytime. c) you didnt pick up any treasure

Try it: go to a weak area solo, walk around for sometime, kill one thing, don't take the treasure. repeat, and you'll find that after a few times there is no loot.

Anyways, my point is that everyone knows the higher level creatures drops better stuff. Also that higher level creatures are more difficult to beat. So if it's not for the fact that people want to get the items, they wouldn't bother trying to figure out complicated skill-using strategies to take on these creatures single-handedly.

In effect, it's human nature -- we want to use our brain to figure out the method to spend the least amount of effort that produces the greatest gain.

Instead of channeling this human nature, Anet's policy seems to be attempting to attempt to use "nerf" to curtail it. Well, the counter is that human ingenuity have a tendency to triumph over such things. Effectively, Anet is now trying to fight a significant portion of its own player-base...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanas

I won't dispute the number issue. However This won't change the values to a huge degree and I'm sure you'll agree that the numbers will still be large.

well you're the one that brought out the factorial...

but yes, you are right, there is many many combinations one can try. my point begin that if there is no motivation (i.e. "you get kewl items"), many people won't try it.

(i certainly didn't buy the game to try the "kewl skill combinations")

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanas

I also see it as a way to promote the real focus of the game. Farming promotes an item based mentality. Please tell me what is the focus of farming in you honest opinion? Items or skills?

Honestly, I occasionally farm so my character have enough gold to look kewl. Yes -- it's "vain", but I can be "virtually vain" right? If you ever read the guild cape thread, you'll also see that I spent quite a bit of time complaining that the cape should be toggle-able... :P

Skills only enter the equation as far as "oh i need to do xyz in order to make some money". I can't speak for others - I know that the 7.5k armor is the same thing as the 75k armor, but I am in it for the looks.

I am not sure why reducing drop to zero ("nerfing") or making certain monsters tougher will make me focus on my skill-using. It does mean that it's more work for me to get the 75k armor. I don't think that it would result in me focusing more time on skill-using.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanas

Then tell me by consdiering my previous arguments, what the game wishes to promote first and foremost, the items or the skills?
...
(p.s I have a degree in Physics and Astrophysics)

The game wants to look kewl - hence the amount of effort spent on the artwork.

Seriously, I do see your point. But I think we have an orthogonal issue here. Yes, you like the skill part - more power to you. But not everyone wants to spend so much time experimenting with the skills.

Thanas · Jul 17, 2005, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by hidden_agenda

let me re-iterate: the items provided the MOTIVATION for me to use the skills. that is, in order to get the items, i play the game. many of the items are (as i've mentioned in my original post) just "looks". call me virtually "vain" if you will, but i like my character to look good (or evil).

so my point is that, at least for me, skills are the MEANS and items are the ENDs. to be honest, i find experimenting with skills and figuring out what stacks with what to be somewhat boring. without the goal of getting something for it (in this case the items), i'll probably be playing something different.

The game wants to look kewl - hence the amount of effort spent on the artwork.

Seriously, I do see your point. But I think we have an orthogonal issue here. Yes, you like the skill part - more power to you. But not everyone wants to spend so much time experimenting with the skills.

I don't have any issue with you wanting to look "Kool" and I understand where you are coming from. I want to look good too. And I will in time, but I can wait!

When I brought this game I thought oh this will be another DIABLO 2 sort of game. A hack and slash filled with UBER weapons. After playing for a while I was dissapointed because I knew this wasnt the case. And being used to such games I sulked for a while. However after an extended period of play I soon began to understand the magnitude of the game and where exactly it was coming from. It wasn't tring to emulate everything that was and is out there already but bringing something new. I confirmed this by reading several articles and interviews about the game. I eventually came to the conclusion that this game was different. Now I accepted the game as something different. However there are those out there (like me) who when they brought the game and made assumptions but (unlike me) have not embraced this new style of gameplay. Now because these people you expected the game to be a certain way doesnt mean it should be and it doesnt mean the game should change radically to suit them. So in conclusion because you don't like the skills doesn't mean that it isnt the main part of the game. As a customer you should be more well informed and as a player you should be more open to different styles of play.

TheLaughingMan · Jul 17, 2005, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by thejynxed

/signed

I don't think they take into account, that nerfing doesn't affect botters in the least bit, it only affects legit players, and in a negative manner. The botters will still use bots to farm, it just takes them longer to do so.

did someone say diablo 2 LOD?!

if anyone plays diablo2 and read the forum you know what I mean....darn bots and Temp ban

katalyst · Jul 17, 2005, 03:40 AM // 03:40

/signed

its impossible to get good gear in the game now unless your dedicated to playing for endless hours