Curse

Lu Cheng Ying · Aug 26, 2005, 04:11 PM // 16:11

This is not a rant, but a suggestion to A.Net/NCsoft.

I believe that A.Net/NCSoft has been too active in trying to help us play this this game.

For example, if we find a good farming spot-->bam, nerfed!

If we find a good build for farm-->bam, nerfed!

This vicious cycle has to stop! I don't mind if they make changes to specific skills that are over powering in PvP that there are no other means to beat it, but actively make changes to farming builds or farming areas is ridiculous.

If this vicious cycle doesn't stop soon, this game will die.

Also, players need to be more mature and stop nagging so much. If you can't be a certain strategy or build, use it! If you are too stubborn to use it, it's your loss and your own fault--don't go crying to A.Net/NCSoft.

And A.Net/NCSoft need to stop being a "parent" in this game. We're not children. Let us play the game and do things for ourselves.

Eventually, there will be an equilibrium.

Warskull · Aug 26, 2005, 04:16 PM // 16:16

The nerfing of farming is an issue. The problem is the rarity of gold drops and the fact they often turn out to be utter crap. A gold drop shouldn't be a "Shocking Longbow of Pruning."

As for the nerfing of builds, the invincimonk needed to be nerfed. It was pitifully easy and nerfing bonds was better than dropping enchantment removers everywhere in the game.

CKaz · Aug 26, 2005, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lu Cheng Ying

This game is already lame by itself. The nerfing of potential farm areas pretty much sealed the fate of this game for hardcore players.
When hardcore leaves, A.Net will have a harder time repopulating with noobs.
My point being is they need to retain what players they have while incrementally gaining more.
Continual meddling will only drive away larger numbers while attracting less.
Without the interests of long time players, the game will just die.
Again, A.Net/NCSoft need to stop playing the game for people. They need let people play the game. There will always be whiners. The whiners are usually never the good players anyway.
As you all know, I'm not defending one or the other. All I've been saying is that A.Net/NCSoft meddles too much with the game and this is causing a lot of people to be very upset!

Ok loot could be better and I here some of the complaint to stop hitting anti-farm, it's quite hard to get unlocks and good stuff through PvE.

But digging into skills/pvp issues -

You assume a lot, one being that hardcore players are 100% happy with the game as it stands. Another is that they meddle a lot/too much. Really? Compared to other games I'm actually suprised at how carefully and slowly they make their changes, it's actually quite pleasurable compared to MMORPGs. Also give the fact in [most] of those games YOU'RE STUCK with your now nerfed race/class/skills as designed, this game you can CHANGE YOUR SKILL LINES, YOUR SKILLS, EVEN YOUR WHOLE SECONDARY CLASS!

Why can one cheap skill, not an elite, change (and make worthless) entire team builds for GvG, HoH, etc. Enter Natures Renewal. Yes it was a bit overkill. Where you can't stack enchantments and hexes of the same name, did this make spirits a bit over the top? And they can even block?

Why can one character build handle one of the toughest of areas, alone without need for any others, and get virtually insane amount of exp/items/loot for themselves? Personally I would have pushed for group bonuses (xp, loot) rather than constant attention to hitting farmers, but is there any doubt they didn't intend a character to drop their HPs exceedingly low so mathematically they are virtually impossible to kill w/o enemies equipped to handle them due to skills/AI? Balancing counters to that and/or the area such a bad thing? No.

What always boggles me is how many cry when the playing field is levelled a bit. A good example is all of those who love going to level 10 arenas with droknars armor and a much extended skill set including elites particularly poison arrow. And saying other players can deal with it.

Yes, they could. But why should you have such a glaring advantage in defense and offense? Instead of admiting the problem most clung to the fact 'shut up and deal', 'dont nerf' etc etc. I'm sorry these are childish responses - you'd rather have the advantage and don't want to give it up. Instead the normal players give up that PvP which was to be their introduction while you abuse it. You'd rather have the playfield offset, otherwise you'd play in the level 20 arena.

Same thing here. Natures Renewal needed to be an elite at the very least as it stood. Spirit Spam stack, blocking, NR yes it can be beaten, say other players can deal with it.

Yes, they could. But why should entire player and team builds be invalidated by it? Quite frankly wiping out enchantments and hexes and all the builds associated with their use was more than they intended from one cheap ranger spirit, and what spamming them could do. Again instead of admiting the problem the 'shut up and deal' gang came out of the woodworks. Yes builds can and were built to counter. But to not admit it was a bit out of whack and boring 'me too' builds came to dominate.

If this game didn't allow us to adjust yeah take real issue here - yes if you made your monk just to enjoy the solo farm world or ranger to exploit spirits, even though I don't gravitate to bandwagon builds having those items tweaked significantly would have much more impact. But you can change it up if you do have issue and still be very effective as a monk, as a ranger.

That's where I think the oddity lies - if you enjoyed your overwhelming pve (monk) or pvp (ranger) imbalance, I'd like to pass on my message..
'shut up and deal'

I welcome the changes, the forthcoming summer expansion (soon

) and the eventual paid one. It is not a perfect game, but I've spent a lot of enjoyable hours and I'm not paying monthly - quite frankly short of RTS games I don't think another one comes very close to value/$.

Perishiko ReLLiK · Aug 26, 2005, 04:23 PM // 16:23

This game won't die if the little cry babies leave. Trust me.

First off, nerfing solo builds? Where do you see this? Who cant solo?

If you can't solo... then you suck. Plain and simple. Of course, i cant in any way make a mesmer that can solo, so if that's all you play, i'm sorry (tried working on a nice illusionary weaponry... but failed miserably--Cyclone axe + illusionary weaponry = aoe destruction)... but other then that, you can either solo underworld, or perdition rock, all depending on your own build, and what you can handle...

i'm still working on a little build that can solo fissure... very hard for me... perhaps easy for others? I guess everyone can have their own "expertise", but this game makes things easy... skill discriptions... read them, and blaaam, you can "own".

Nerfing farming areas is needed my friend... first, comes the nerfs... then comes the "equalization" of drops... You cant have places that drop significantly higher and better things... it's just asking for zone issues... and well, more complaints then are needed.

Loviatar · Aug 26, 2005, 04:32 PM // 16:32

[QUOTE=Lu Cheng Ying]This is not a rant, but a suggestion to A.Net/NCsoft.

I believe that A.Net/NCSoft has been too active in trying to help us play this this game.

For example, if we find a good farming spot-->bam, nerfed!

If we find a good build for farm-->bam, nerfed!

This vicious cycle has to stop! I don't mind if they make changes to specific skills that are over powering in PvP that there are no other means to beat it, but actively make changes to farming builds or farming areas is ridiculous.
QUOTE]

so they are free to tinker with pvp but leave the farmers alone?

i didnt get any decent drops until AFTER the great farming nerf when they spread out the drops instead of having tiny ultra rich drop spots.

may be worse for a dedicated farmer with no other interest in the game but the great farm spot nerf did make very many average players happy

Lu Cheng Ying · Aug 26, 2005, 04:44 PM // 16:44

I don't know about you guys, but I'm going back to tried & true CS & Mu. At least here I know I won't be be meddled on.

The way it is now, protective bond is even totally useless in group PvE. At -3 energy, you can't protect and heal at the same time...within 5s, you're out of energy. So the way this skill is now static at -3 energy, it's useless. Might as will get rid of it.

I think a better decision would've been to leave the skill as is, but make it "target other ally", at least it would still be useful.

The reactive behaviors of A.Net/NCSoft shows they lack insight. This is the primary reason we're having all these issues in the first place.

Loviatar · Aug 26, 2005, 04:47 PM // 16:47

no

you lack imagination as other solo farm builds have already been tested that work

farm cs to your hearts content

Perishiko ReLLiK · Aug 26, 2005, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lu Cheng Ying

I don't know about you guys, but I'm going back to tried & true CS & Mu. At least here I know I won't be be meddled on.

The way it is now, protective bond is even totally useless in group PvE. At -3 energy, you can't protect and heal at the same time...within 5s, you're out of energy. So the way this skill is now static at -3 energy, it's useless. Might as will get rid of it.

I think a better decision would've been to leave the skill as is, but make it "target other ally", at least it would still be useful.

The reactive behaviors of A.Net/NCSoft shows they lack insight. This is the primary reason we're having all these issues in the first place.

Who's having issues? I use an elementalist and a ranger, and i solo anywhere i go... Yes, including underworld... except i deal damage quicker (ranger doesnt deal it quicker, but hardly gets touched) and i dont come near close to death, or have energy problems... Don't know how they'll nerf my builds without changing the whole game, so i think i'll be fine for quite some time...

Besides... there are ways of gaining energy too... you ever think of that?

Cymmina · Aug 26, 2005, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lu Cheng Ying

If we find a good build for farm-->bam, nerfed!

This vicious cycle has to stop! I don't mind if they make changes to specific skills that are over powering in PvP that there are no other means to beat it, but actively make changes to farming builds or farming areas is ridiculous.

Whine much? What ANet wants to have is a game that rewards people for playing the game as it was intented (by, you know, completing missions/quests and stuff with other people), not by rewarding people who want a game where they can get their Godly Plate of the Whale by doing Mephisto runs over and over by themselves. I'd much rather have their vision than your vision.

Quote:

Who cant solo?

I play mesmer primary and I am quite jealous of other primaries that have a much easier time of soloing. Why? The only profession no one seems to want for the best experience areas of the game (Fissure/UW) is the mesmer, and I'm desperate for skill points. I found a build that will let me solo lvl 20 minotaurs as a Me/N (3 at a time safely, more if I slowly add them), but I hate every minute of it. I could care less about drops, just the 1,400 exp I get every time through my run.

Lu Cheng Ying · Aug 26, 2005, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cymmina

Whine much? What ANet wants to have is a game that rewards people for playing the game as it was intented (by, you know, completing missions/quests and stuff with other people), not by rewarding people who want a game where they can get their Godly Plate of the Whale by doing Mephisto runs over and over by themselves. I'd much rather have their vision than your vision.

You know why I don't like to be in random groups? Because there are so many noobs out there. You enter UW, 5s later everyone is dead because some noob didn't listen, etc, etc. (Same happens in FoW, too).

This is the primary reason I prefer to solo.

But my issue isn't the nerfing of the monk or another other class, it is the fact the A.Net/NCSoft choses to take such an active role in dictating how we play.

I don't disagree when there's a major issue where there is no other way to counter, but through significant changes, but they should leave the "minor" issues alone. People need just do play the game and take advantage of all advantages made available.

Each time A.Net/NCSoft makes a change, the game becomes less fun for me. This is where I have problem.

The idea that A.Net/NCSoft wants me to play with others is ludicrous and damned straight wrong! I should be the only one dictating how I should play, unless A.Net/NCSoft find a way so I can choose only players want to play with because of the time, the majority of the players just plan suck!

Loviatar · Aug 26, 2005, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lu Cheng Ying

I should be the only one dictating how I should play, unless A.Net/NCSoft find a way so I can choose only players want to play with because of the time, the majority of the players just plan suck!

just for the fun of it have you actually counted the tiny sprinkle of complaints against the vast number of positive responses?

it would seem that they will drive very few away and hold onto/increase the number of players.

also remember they said pve would be benefiting soon as well

you go to your mu/cs and i will enjoy it here

to each his/her own and i honestly hope you enjoy the games you are going back to

Lu Cheng Ying · Aug 26, 2005, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

just for the fun of it have you actually counted the tiny sprinkle of complaints against the vast number of positive responses?

it would seem that they will drive very few away and hold onto/increase the number of players.

also remember they said pve would be benefiting soon as well

you go to your mu/cs and i will enjoy it here

to each his/her own and i honestly hope you enjoy the games you are going back to

Have you checked lately? GW is not even selling anymore!

Have you checked the number of districts in LA or Ascalon? Go check!

Since the latest update, these booming places are less than half of what they were.

Just because people aren't here complaining doesn't mean they are not upset, so please do not attempt to speak for everyone of those people who don't post because they don't care to post or don't know where to post.

Mistress Mindbender · Aug 26, 2005, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lu Cheng Ying

Have you checked lately? GW is not even selling anymore!

Have you checked the number of districts in LA or Ascalon? Go check!

Since the latest update, these booming places are less than half of what they were.

Just because people aren't here complaining doesn't mean they are not upset, so please do not attempt to speak for everyone of those people who don't post because they don't care to post or don't know where to post.

Thats probably because people are doing pvp for extra faction.

Every game gets nerfs, everytime somebody says they uninstall the game... unsubscribe ect. But unfortunatly the whiners never leave.

Lu Cheng Ying · Aug 26, 2005, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mistress Mindbender

Thats probably because people are doing pvp for extra faction.

Every game gets nerfs, everytime somebody says they uninstall the game... unsubscribe ect. But unfortunatly the whiners never leave.

I find it interesting how people never comprehend the argument I'm making, instead they all resort to personal attacks.

My argument is simple-->play the game "As-Is" & A.Net/NCSoft needs to take a more hands off approach. These have been my argument all along.

Yet, people accuse me of whining? Well, I have every reason to whine because I've paid my $50 and because A.Net/NCSoft use these forums as barometer for their decisions.

In fact, they direct me here. So here I am.

If anyone have a counterpoint, make it, but stop the personal attacks.

I may not play the game, but I won't leave the forum, either, because I have invested too much of my time into the game.

I'll continue to hammer my argument that A.Net/NCSoft is too much of meddler & placator. They need to only jump in when there are serious issues. I have no problem with the nerfing of the Ranger NR because it can be overwhelming, but it is not totally pwning, either. So, if people are innovative, they can defeat spirits spamming.

Sometimes we're just too lazy to overcome obstacles so we whine to a higher power to fix it for us and I think this wrong.

SOT · Aug 26, 2005, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Anet is not involved enough.

QuitBanningMe · Aug 26, 2005, 08:07 PM // 20:07

I suppose this rant stems from the fact many believe invincimonks have been severely nerfed. Nay. My invincimonk Mo/Me has always used Prot spirit with channeling and divine boon spam, and was always a lot more effective than bonders imo. Dont use him anymore though; farming is boring, and there are much better ways to make money in GW (not that making money is important, not anymore for me, anyways)

TheKanidate · Aug 26, 2005, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Okay, so you're not whining - understood. However, it does sound to me like you have a problem with the game being balanced. GW is a game that's made to be fair and competetive for all the classes and all the players. I've been turned off by many other MMORPG's and in fact just many other RPG's in particular due to lack of balance. In those games certain classes are just obviously the best, and if you choose the others, well you're screwed. It's nice to have a game where the game markers are at least trying to balance the game classes.

As for farming, if that's really the only reason you play GW then I can understand your dissapointment. Getting rid of certain areas or classes beneficial to farming has indeed turned many players off of the game. However, GW has so much more to offer than farming, so maybe you could move onto something else?

As for Lion's Arch and Ascalon having smaller figures, they may only have around 10 districts, but those districts are packed! Back in the day (April, May) there would be a lot of districts, but no one really in any of them. Tis better to have a few districts with many people than many districts and only one or two of them having any players on 'em. Plus, other places in the game have bloomed somewhat. The Ammon Oasis for example does seem to be doing better in terms of players being there. So I think your argument about GW's numbers falling is wrong because A) Less districts yes, but they're packed! and B) People are using other cities besides Ascalon and Lion's Arch. People are still playing GW, and new people are joining the game - you just gotta look around.

Now to your main argument about letting the players play the game and have them balance it out themselves, I think that's completely false. Look at other games where balance is not even looked. Though I've only played the demo of World of Warcraft I hear horror stories all the time from players talking about getting crushed and having their well earned loot taken from them by another player. I'm not quite certain that qualifies as a balance issue, but from what I've heard it seems to be. In general though, I don't trust players to look after the game in creating any sort of equilibrium. They'll manipulate the system to their advantage, which though fun, doesn't make for a very fair game. So on some level, you have to rely on the company that made the game to look after the game's balance.

I think the reason that the people at Arena Net and NC Soft are acting like the "parent" you make them out to be is because they're actually trying to improve the game. I already know that you don't see it in this light, but think about it. Just consider the other side.

I hope this was more along the lines of what you consider a constructive counter argument. I never said you were whining and I stuck to what you said and did my best to counter it. Honestly, GW is a great game - not the best game I've played, but one of the best.

BTW: You've done a quick job responding to people's comments so far. I'm impressed.

Sir Santiago · Aug 26, 2005, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lu Cheng Ying

You know why I don't like to be in random groups? Because there are so many noobs out there. You enter UW, 5s later everyone is dead because some noob didn't listen, etc, etc. (Same happens in FoW, too).

This is the primary reason I prefer to solo.

But my issue isn't the nerfing of the monk or another other class, it is the fact the A.Net/NCSoft choses to take such an active role in dictating how we play.

I don't disagree when there's a major issue where there is no other way to counter, but through significant changes, but they should leave the "minor" issues alone. People need just do play the game and take advantage of all advantages made available.

Each time A.Net/NCSoft makes a change, the game becomes less fun for me. This is where I have problem.

The idea that A.Net/NCSoft wants me to play with others is ludicrous and damned straight wrong! I should be the only one dictating how I should play, unless A.Net/NCSoft find a way so I can choose only players want to play with because of the time, the majority of the players just plan suck!

How is it "ludicrous and damned straight wrong" that Anet wants you to play with others? Isn't Guild Wars a team game? Why should it be an online game if you only want to play by yourself? Your argument makes no sense to me. If you dislike it so much, why don't you go play a single player game?

SOT · Aug 26, 2005, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Santiago

How is it "ludicrous and damned straight wrong" that Anet wants you to play with others? Isn't Guild Wars a team game? Why should it be an online game if you only want to play by yourself? Your argument makes no sense to me. If you dislike it so much, why don't you go play a single player game?

It isn't ludicrous. It's reality. Many MANY people do not subscribe to that magazine.

Lu Cheng Ying · Aug 26, 2005, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Santiago

How is it "ludicrous and damned straight wrong" that Anet wants you to play with others? Isn't Guild Wars a team game? Why should it be an online game if you only want to play by yourself? Your argument makes no sense to me. If you dislike it so much, why don't you go play a single player game?

You obviously missed my elaboration.

Additionally, i shouldn't be "forced" to do team play when i cannot be assured that the people on my team are all contributing. If leader can dump non-performing members ingame, I might be less resistant.

But in most groups that I've been in, there are just way to many incompetent members to make the group enjoyable. In these situations, I'd rather be alone or at least have the ability to dump the non-contributing bloke.

Additionally, if I wished to be constraint by team play only, I'd play any other game.

I picked GW because it started out flexible, but A.Net/NCSoft is bend on a course which I see as more and more inflexible.

Also, they're trying to pander to too many whiners. As I've said, I have no problem for them to jump in when it is absolutely required. But somethings are best left alone and people will find an equilibrium.