Curse

Thanas · Jul 09, 2005, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Hey there, I was just wondering why there is no attribute refund system in PvP arenas. I find it very frustrating that when I want to change my build in PvP I have to go into PvE to earn refund points. You can earn XP in PvE, why not in PvP. Any comments on this matter would be highly appreciated.

Thanks, Col.

RTSFirebat · Jul 09, 2005, 01:36 AM // 01:36

PvP characters are designed by deleted at will... so there is no need for them. But I do agree they should maybe make it so you gain 1 refund point per win in PvP battles... how does that sound?

Thanas · Jul 09, 2005, 07:44 AM // 07:44

When I say PvP I mean PvP within PvE i.e. the arenas. In this case players are not likely to delete their character to change skills, instead they will utilise the refund system and with no to gain refund points one must resort to using the PvE environment. The refund per battle sounds interesting. My only issue with it is that if you are winning PvP arena you are unlikely to want to modify your skills.

Thanas · Jul 11, 2005, 01:35 PM // 13:35

*bump*

DrSLUGFly · Jul 11, 2005, 01:41 PM // 13:41

I want to expand it a bit even. I'd like attribute refunds to be a tad easier in PvE also. I've never had a problem, always gotten enough xp for when I want to change, but it still concerns me if trying out a new build that I won't be able to change back for a while if I don't like it. It's not a problem for me... just a minor concern.

Thomasuwoo · Jul 11, 2005, 06:20 PM // 18:20

We've already gone into a detalied discussion about this here.
And firebat your response looks almost identicle to the reply on this topic as well! I'm not going to cut and paste mu response too.

theclam · Jul 11, 2005, 06:30 PM // 18:30

PvE characters should not have infinite refund points while in a PvP area. Otherwise, what's the point of refund points?

I'd suggest you always use a PvP character when playing PvP. That way, you can change equipment, skills, and attributes, without having to worry about cost or refund points. Plus, you can try out different combinations and you can gain access to skills you haven't unlocked yet, by selecting a premade and changing its skillbar around.

Thanas · Jul 12, 2005, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by theclam

PvE characters should not have infinite refund points while in a PvP area. Otherwise, what's the point of refund points?

I never mentioned infinite refund points! I said you should earn them as you can earn Faction. And I don't agree you should have to play a PvP. I want to play arena and tombs with my PvE player.

Thomasuwoo · Jul 12, 2005, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Seeing as how this thread has been sticked by the mod I'll repost my discussion from the above mentioned thread:

I Love the new faction system. It's great. Alows me to PvP more but there is one change it has made that I would love to see re-implimented.
You see I love to use my PvE characters in PvP. The Looks thing is kind of important to me. It feels nice to look alot more uniqe to everyone else. With the changing seccondary class and the small amont of Exp in the battles and the refund pionts my PvE was also just felxible enough to respec for PvP without having to make a PvP only clone.

I'm not say bring back the Exp but PLEASE GOD bring back the refund points that came with them. Or maybe a way to spend say 100 faction to buy 24. Going off to PvE to get atribute points back is impracticle and Cloning my character to switch from hammer to sword, or to bring along a few tactics skills seems unessesary.

1 refund point a battle would be nice. Or a similar system. PvE's have enough trouble being versatile in PvP as is.

Mayar third Keeper · Jul 12, 2005, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomasuwoo

Seeing as how this thread has been sticked by the mod I'll repost my discussion from the above mentioned thread:

I Love the new faction system. It's great. Alows me to PvP more but there is one change it has made that I would love to see re-implimented.
You see I love to use my PvE characters in PvP. The Looks thing is kind of important to me. It feels nice to look alot more uniqe to everyone else. With the changing seccondary class and the small amont of Exp in the battles and the refund pionts my PvE was also just felxible enough to respec for PvP without having to make a PvP only clone.

I'm not say bring back the Exp but PLEASE GOD bring back the refund points that came with them. Or maybe a way to spend say 100 faction to buy 24. Going off to PvE to get atribute points back is impracticle and Cloning my character to switch from hammer to sword, or to bring along a few tactics skills seems unessesary.

1 refund point a battle would be nice. Or a similar system. PvE's have enough trouble being versatile in PvP as is.

I tried to quote the important parts but i ended up by quoting all

I always though Anets intention was PvE _AND_ PvP. For the PvE player(as i am) its is a must to play the char wich u spend the most time on. PvP premades were never an option to me. I only testet something just to switch back and play my pve char with the results i got. This was never a problem till they get rid of the refund points in PvP. Now u can delete your pve char because its as flexible as a steel pipe...

arredondo · Jul 12, 2005, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Free refill on refund points when in towns. Problem solved, no one is harmed and everyone is helped.

Thomasuwoo · Jul 12, 2005, 07:34 PM // 19:34

I wouldn't mind spending my faction for refunds eaither. Say 30 faction a point?

Thanas · Jul 12, 2005, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

Free refill on refund points when in towns. Problem solved, no one is harmed and everyone is helped.

I don't believe this is the way forwards at all. If you had your refunds points refeshed in towns it would remove the point in having them at all. The benifit of the refund system is that it effectively forces you to stick with a skill set for a small while in order to test it out as it were. However the fact that whilst playing PvP with your PvE character you have to go back to killing monsters to get your refund points back is ridiculous. It is such a long winded way of doing things. I think buying refund points with faction should be implemented or something to that effect.

Thanas · Jul 20, 2005, 11:24 AM // 11:24

I'm very pleased to see that XP was introduced into arenas and tombs with the latest update. I can now change my build after several battles if I wish without having to play missions in the PvE world. Thankyou ANet!

kalaris · Jul 20, 2005, 01:11 PM // 13:11

I think a good solution would be: To let pvp characters refund to their hearts content, but only in town....

and for PvE they should add a vendor in arena zones from lion's arch on, that lets you buy refund points, another goldsink, or like maybe 500g to get 24 points, or 250 for 12,

As it is if you have points in your secondary you can get those back for free by changing it, then changning it back... Provided you've done the quests

once you reach a certain point refund points becomes a real drag on PvP with an RP character =/

Calnaion Blackhawk · Jul 20, 2005, 01:46 PM // 13:46

refunds points are a pain when trying new builds, but i guess they are there for some reason or antoher

Thanas · Jul 20, 2005, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calnaion Blackhawk

refunds points are a pain when trying new builds, but i guess they are there for some reason or antoher

Quote:

Originally Posted by kalaris

I think a good solution would be: To let pvp characters refund to their hearts content, but only in town....

and for PvE they should add a vendor in arena zones from lion's arch on, that lets you buy refund points, another goldsink, or like maybe 500g to get 24 points, or 250 for 12,

As it is if you have points in your secondary you can get those back for free by changing it, then changning it back... Provided you've done the quests

once you reach a certain point refund points becomes a real drag on PvP with an RP character =/

It would be good if both of you actually bothered to read my posts before replying. I've covered both these issues already.

kalaris · Jul 20, 2005, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanas

It would be good if both of you actually bothered to read my posts before replying. I've covered both these issues already.

I did not feel you covered them enough.

I *DID* read your posts, but I wanted to introduce a new idea.

Adding the paltry ammount of xp back into pvp wasn't enough of a fix, when you get to the PvE Endgame, and all you want to do is pvp with your RP character..... yeah...

They Added xp back to PvP Woohoo 16 points a kill! for radical build changes it isn't enough, if you pvp full time with a flexible class say, Elementalist, sometimes I like playing with earth, sometimes water, sometimes air.... It'd be nice to change freely around without having to stop playing pvp to go grind up 6000 more xp for a new set of 24 refund points.

6000 xp takes a while in pvp, so a way to trade gold for refund points would be nice.

leoam · Sep 03, 2005, 02:27 PM // 14:27

{sorry if this is a bit long winded, but I feel this issue runs deep and needs some explaining}

Attribute refund points are a good way to limit a player from changing his capabilities too much during a quest or mission as this might alter how challenging it is. The problem is when you run out of refund points your are stuck with it till you can get enough experience to get the refund points back. When tuning your character's attributes and skill sets in competition and team arena's it is easy to run out of attribute refund points. When you do you can be stuck with some crappy setup that doesn't work well for you, and now you have to find a way to make enough kills so you can get those refund points back. So you enter the arena's with this crappy setup, and hope your other team mates are good enough to kill things for you, or you find some area to farm exp in for the sole purpose of getting those refund points back. You might join a mission in the ring of fire or UW/Fissure with a hidden agenda of just getting those refund points back, then leave the team when you have the the refund points that you wanted. Huge time waster for everyone and more useless grinding and morale breaker. You spend all that time building that sweet PvE char only to get that lingering "I'm stuck till I can get refund points back" feeling about it and, "I don't want to grind with this char right now, I want to have fun". This is not only grueling for you but it hurts other players too, making it not fun for everyone. The easy thing to do is to just delete the char and start over again, but if you think I'm going to delete my PvE char with that 15k armor or Fissure armor and everything unlocked you are sick in the head. I think the average approach would be to have 3 PvE chars and leave 1 slot for a PvP char. You wouldn't want to have only 1 PvE main char because that could seriously limit your ability to find groups. And why the hell would I want to have another mesmer in my account when I already have a PvE mesmer with everything unlocked (there goes that stuck feeling again). Why did I get that cool armor for my PvE char if I'm always using a PvP char all the time because it's more convenient. Remaking a PvP char is not too bad, but again that GvG is going to have to wait till you remake just because you ran out of attribute points, and you'll be the only one on your team not sporting that cool fissure armor, and that screenshot or movie capture of your team beating the #1 guild doesn't have your main character in it (ok, so I took that a little to far). Lets say you are doing tombs runs to work on your team build or playing with a pickup group; eventually people will need to remake their char when they run out refund points after making changes. They will have to log out, delete char, remake, then rejoin the team again, assuming they haven't already found someone else to replace you because you were taking too long. Imagine if you only had to remake when you change your profession, wouldn't this make life easier. Guild Wars is about skill, let us skill up instead of diverting our time into useless grinding.

[Solution]:
The solution is simple, just allow players to make any attribute point changes they want in town, and use the current refund point system only when they enter a quest or mission area. I see nothing wrong with this since each mission could require a different approach and skill set to completing it. What do you do when your char isn't idealy configured for a particular mission? Will you be able to find a group? Maby in a particular mission you won't work well as a protection monk since all your enchantments get stipped very easily. Do you have enough refund points to switch to a healing monk? Everyone on your team suffers when the mission fails and has to be done over and over again because you couldn't hold up your area of expertise. Is this fun?

Another compromise for PvP play would be to add a couple of PvP only character slots with little or no inventory space. This way you could have some PvP chars ready and preconfigured for a specific purpose like a GvG build and a tombs build. Keeping track of things to save time is what computers are good for, right? This would give room for experimentation and also let you be ready for guild events and such. Time is precious, and it's alread hard enough to get a small guild group together at the same time and have enough time for GvG'ing and Tombs runs. Less than 50% of the time together is actual game play. Is this fun? Good planning is the key to success, but you could do the planning once and always have a char ready for that particular build, so at a moment's notice everyone can get together and have some fun.

medikamen · Sep 03, 2005, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrSLUGFly

I want to expand it a bit even. I'd like attribute refunds to be a tad easier in PvE also. I've never had a problem, always gotten enough xp for when I want to change, but it still concerns me if trying out a new build that I won't be able to change back for a while if I don't like it. It's not a problem for me... just a minor concern.

One mission in the UW or FoW and it's all good. Can't see how it could be easier than that...