Curse

Dualinity · Sep 02, 2005, 11:20 AM // 11:20

also, the 55 hp build is really good in PvE, and also in some PvP fights, but when someone uses health degen... u are dead. I guess Ether renewal is one of best skills in PvP?

Lemmy · Sep 02, 2005, 11:33 AM // 11:33

just wondering why it has no exhaustion? Look at ether prodigy, you can see very rarely someone uses that skill... although renewal is still better even if prodigy wouldn't have exhaustion imho.

Dzan · Sep 02, 2005, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElderAtronach

When the game is at a "one build can beat most" stage, that's when people should be concerned. It's stopped being rock paper scissors and become rock rock bigger rock.

Thank goodness we arent there yet.

Chev of Hardass · Sep 02, 2005, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by stumpy

you want ether to recover from exhaustion too??? your description would give meteor shower, maelstrom, and earthquake users very happy. I'm sorry but it doesn't seem like a viable suggestion. Think of the potential outcome ... you now will have a bunch of E/Me arcane echoing showers, quakes and maelstrom without a care in the world ... heck ... people would start using obsidian flame spikes like candy if they could simply use the skill to recover from exhaustion 33% faster ...

its different I'll give you that ... and it would definately still see play ...

I think you are dismissing the possiblities prior to serious consideration.

for example

Glyph of Energy {Elite} - Glyph
Your next spell costs 20 less Energy to cast and does not cause exhaustion.

causes no exaustion and with a cooldown of 15 seconds, this is almost spammable.

I said before that that numbers were off the cuff, so, for an instance, consider 15% faster recovery from exaustion. Better? Let's face it, the exact numbers are not up to us here, we are looking for a solution to Ether Renewal that leans towards the benefit of Elementalists and not Smiters.

Whatever, it really does not matter to me, but I think all this dependance on enchatments is out of the Elementalist line altogether. Give skills that affect enchantments to the Monks. Like Dwaynas Kiss.

entropy · Sep 02, 2005, 09:34 PM // 21:34

NO NO NO exhaustion for ether renewal pls. Lets downgrade ether renewal but not Nerf it! Exhaustion is the goddamn most annoying thing in the world. The only thing that can remove it is time and it is goddamn slow as hell.
Going back to what someone said before that ether renewal gives much much much mroe energy regen than other energy mangement elites and skills its also much weaker in the sense that it relies on enchantments. As said above most ele/mo smiters have around 4 enchants on their skill bar. Aura is really a waste but all it does is feed ether renewal. Those spaces could be used to do other things. Also making it restore 40-60% of energy and 20 for each other enchantments is like an invitation to use all of the ele's big spells without consequence except for exhaustion. Elemental attunement does that already. If they changed it to that then elemental attunement would need a boost as well and then ether prodigy which needs it even more.

Thomasuwoo · Sep 03, 2005, 01:43 AM // 01:43

The only advantage I in using another ele elite for energy managment is using glyph of energy to negate exhastion.

Balthazars aura is a nuke comparable to metoer show and it doesn't cause exhastion... If it did I'd bet you'd see alot less smite builds using ether renewal.

The problem with useing rend and diversion is that you need a necro AND a memser or 1 necro/mesmer for each smiter. You need ONE per smiter. That's alot of spaces on ur team to counter one stratagy. Rend takes twice as long to recharge as balths. That's enough time for the ele to get it's enchantments back up and balth again.
What's the rest of my team doing? Trying to keep me alive or on one of the other 2 smiters in the team.
It's beatable and as I sated before we do beat them one on one but the tombs we don't have a cahnce. Just one big smite at the end. Our only option is to pray that the other two smite teams will see each other as a threat and kill each other rather then us.

Thomasuwoo · Sep 03, 2005, 08:42 AM // 08:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moltov joss

So ether renewal needs to be nerfed?(forgive me i didn't read alll the posts) Just as soon as anet nerfs SS and smite is king and only now that smite is king, so now its broken. Was it broken before? pfft.

I am suprised more people arent suggesting that Zealots fire is the problem heh. maybe I shouldn't have said that. *coughf* *coughf*

Zelots is fine. It does fire damage that takes armour into account. With the right elemental prtection/armour even spamming draw and reversal it doesn't add up. If it wasn't for the fact that ether renewal gave sso much HP backfire would be the perfect counter.

Dzan · Sep 03, 2005, 08:44 AM // 08:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moltov joss

So ether renewal needs to be nerfed?(forgive me i didn't read alll the posts) Just as soon as anet nerfs SS and smite is king and only now that smite is king, so now its broken. Was it broken before? pfft.

I am suprised more people arent suggesting that Zealots fire is the problem heh. maybe I shouldn't have said that. *coughf* *coughf*

Don't try to use logic, the "My warrior/monk and Fire ele Flare/MoR build doesn't dominate the Tombs" crowd has spoken: OFF WITH THE HEAD OF ER DESPITE THE FACT IT ISNT NEAR UNBEATABLE AND IT DOESNT WARP THE ENVIRONMENT!

Commodore_Mcawesome · Sep 03, 2005, 09:24 AM // 09:24

Well this is a little off-topic, but as for ER it doesn't seem too hard to overcome. I was trying to think earlier of a skill that rangers always seemed to use against my Elementalist in the arenas, and I just now remembered it was Concussion Shot. I read up on that skill and it seems to me like it would be pretty easy to counter the spam with that, or even with a knockdown skill or anything to keep them from casting.
Just because a lot of people use ER (I assume; I don't PvP often), doesn't mean that it needs to be nerfed and it doesn't seem to me at all like it's overtly powerful.

Thomasuwoo · Sep 03, 2005, 10:06 AM // 10:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Commodore_Mcawesome

Well this is a little off-topic, but as for ER it doesn't seem too hard to overcome. I was trying to think earlier of a skill that rangers always seemed to use against my Elementalist in the arenas, and I just now remembered it was Concussion Shot. I read up on that skill and it seems to me like it would be pretty easy to counter the spam with that, or even with a knockdown skill or anything to keep them from casting.
Just because a lot of people use ER (I assume; I don't PvP often), doesn't mean that it needs to be nerfed and it doesn't seem to me at all like it's overtly powerful.

Too bad both balths AND ether renewal have 1 secocnd cast times. We drop natures renewal to take this to 2 and favorable wind to raise the chances of the arrow getting to it's target in time. Concussion shot also cast 25 energy base BTW. Even with expertise the cost is still quite high. Skull crack is another way of casuing concussion but without flurry takes a good seccond to relase (Which means unless you make an acurate guess and start the animation BEFORE enther renewal or a long cast spell is cast you'll most likely miss and wast 10 Adrenalin)

Also concusion is a condition that can be draw/removed.
We also use punsihing shot and distracting shot on our rangers. One aslo uses choking gas.

While this rasies our chances (And belive me we're VERY anti-smite based) we still have a hell of alot of trouble beating smites.

I probably mentioned it before but here are the anti-smite skills we bring.

LEach signet
Power Drain
Drain enchantment
Rend enchantments
Diversion
Chocking gas
Distracting shot
Punishing Shot
Chiblains
Barbed Trap
Savage Slash
Distracting blow
Hamstring
Storm Chaser
Ward Agains Elements
Ward Agains Melee
Favorable Winds
Energy Drain
Dev Hammer
Heavy Blow
Fear Me.

That's what I can remeber off the top of my head.
Can anybody recomend anythign we've negelcted?
Oh we've tried desecrate enchantments. it's nowhere near enough dmage and ether rewal fixes the dmg VERY quickly.
Well of profain is too slow and conditional.
Backfire and Soul leach don't do enough damge to counter the HP regen from ether renewal.

Rieselle · Sep 03, 2005, 10:15 AM // 10:15

I think the main problem is that ER is so much better than any similar comparable spell. Maybe if they made Ether Prodigy non-elite?

If ER is not "overpowered" and should be left alone, then definitely many of the other energy management skills are "underpowered" and should be buffed.

Xploit · Sep 03, 2005, 02:13 PM // 14:13

Just bring a mesmer and strip enchantments and drain energy, problem solved. Maybe you guys should work on countering the stuff out there instead of always yelling NERF.

Thomasuwoo · Sep 04, 2005, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xploit

Just bring a mesmer and strip enchantments and drain energy, problem solved. Maybe you guys should work on countering the stuff out there instead of always yelling NERF.

'Maybe you should actualy try your counters before preaching them here.

Moltov joss · Sep 04, 2005, 03:27 AM // 03:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomasuwoo

Zelots is fine. It does fire damage that takes armour into account. With the right elemental prtection/armour even spamming draw and reversal it doesn't add up. If it wasn't for the fact that ether renewal gave sso much HP backfire would be the perfect counter.

I was being sarcastic about all the people who call for nerfs instead of playing with skill. Yes zealots is fine, quite obvious. I was taking the op to a somewhat satyrical and warped sence of retardom, hence my remark of zealots needing to be nerfed(Joke btw kk).

Pharalon · Sep 04, 2005, 04:34 AM // 04:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moltov joss

I was being sarcastic about all the people who call for nerfs instead of playing with skill. Yes zealots is fine, quite obvious. I was taking the op to a somewhat satyrical and warped sence of retardom, hence my remark of zealots needing to be nerfed(Joke btw kk).

How is it obvious that Zealot's Fire is fine? It outclasses all bar probably 2 skills in the entire fire line damage wise, and everything if you take usability into consideration. It'll put out more damage than anything an ele has to offer, and is harder to shut down.

Just for a quick comparison with a baseline fire spell like Firestorm. For equivalent energy (though less time), Zealots can be triggered 3 times for 111 damage. That's equivalent damage to standing in a firestorm for 5 seconds. Of course, the most hits you'll get out of firestorm is 2, possibly 3 against a bad player, which shows you just how much better the skill is than running an proper elementalist. The fact that it's mobile puts it head and shoulders above almost every othe AoE nuke, and the damage just tips it over the edge.

Quote:

So ether renewal needs to be nerfed?(forgive me i didn't read alll the posts) Just as soon as anet nerfs SS and smite is king and only now that smite is king, so now its broken. Was it broken before? pfft.

Yes? It was broken as soon as it was reborn in its latest incarnation. People said so at the time, they ran smite builds 6-7 months ago that were overpowered. The fact that it was never really FotM until now doesn't mean it hasn't been broken all along, it just means that people haven't had it shoved down their throats and hence haven't whined about it.

If you don't think it needs a nerf, coming here and making rather empty sarcastic comments doesn't really help your point, it just makes you look like a troll. Outline some cases and show us all how Ether Renewal is in line with other energy management elites. I'd be quite interested to see.

ElderAtronach · Sep 04, 2005, 06:33 AM // 06:33

There are no comparisons because Ether Renewal outclasses every other energy management skill out there. People were playing smite builds effectively during the height of Nature's Renewal use, it didn't stop them at all, only slowed them down. With the NR nerf, smite just took off into the stratosphere.

Pharalon · Sep 04, 2005, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Ok, I'm going to be an ass and reply despite that fact that you specifically asked me not to Moltov

Nothing specifically directed against you, it's just the fact that so many people of late have been weighing into skill balance discussions with little more than "wtf nub, learn to freakin counter", when counters are such a tiny part of what goes into balancing, and it really gets on my nerves. Anything is counterable, and smite in it's current incarnation is very counterable. Any good team will be able to cope with smite just as well as with any other strategy thrown at them, but that's no indication at all of wether the skills are balanced or not. You need to objectively look at the skills that are being used, the numbers they're throwing up, or the influence they're having over gameply, then look skills that fall into a similar category and see how they stack up.

You look at the numbers that ether renewal is throwing in terms of energy regen, and compare it to similar skills (Offering of Blood, Ether Prodigy etc), and you can see that it blows them out of the water. Now you can look at comparitive counterability at this stage, what effects it has on builds that use it etc. Obviously not everyone will run it, because it does put restrictions on your build, so you take that into consideration. Ether renewal is slightly more vulnerable to mass enchant remove than most other energy management elites, but it also has no drawbacks whatsoever. No exhaustion, on health sacrifice, not dependant on enemy energy levels etc etc. Where is the reason to let this skill have 5-6x the possible energy regen of comparitive skills? There is none, so other skills get thrown in the trash and the game becomes that much more bland.

Same with Zealots. Nothing in the fire line can compete. If you want AoE fire damage, then you go smiting. There is nothing in fire that you can't do with smiting, apart from the AoE knockdown that Meteor * gives, but you can get that from other, better lines if you need it (i'm sure many people will argue that, but I've been playing a long time and have never seen a PvP fire build that can keep up with smiting for damage in the real world). The result is you end up with a dead line of skills, and you get an excessively homogenised playing environment, which I'm sure no one wants.

@OP, although the suggestions are good IxChel, I really think it's unrealistic to expect such a big change in the skill mechanics. I'd be happy with a more conservative change, probably something as simple as a cap on the number of enchants

For 10 seconds, each time you cast a spell, you gain 1..3 Energy and 5..17 Health for each Enchantment (max 1..3) on you

from 0..15. I think that should bring it back into line under most circumstances. It's still got the problem that it's better on a monk than an ele, but at this stage I think you'll just have to accept that.

Thomasuwoo · Sep 04, 2005, 10:48 AM // 10:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moltov joss

I was being sarcastic about all the people who call for nerfs instead of playing with skill. Yes zealots is fine, quite obvious. I was taking the op to a somewhat satyrical and warped sence of retardom, hence my remark of zealots needing to be nerfed(Joke btw kk).

Lol soz I didn't pick up on that. Really hard to tell on these forums

On the Hydromancer remark yes, it's an awsome counter to zelots fire. And it also stacks with ward against elements.
On the learn a counter thread as Pharalon stated, even if it can still be counteered it doesn't change the fact that it is an overpowered skill compared to the other energy regen options. (Excpet for Glyph of energy which negates exhastion... To bad balths doesn't cause exhastion

.)

FrogDevourer · Sep 05, 2005, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Good job highjacking an interesting thread. This thread is NOT a place to discuss if Ether Renewal is balanced or not. It's NOT a place to use the (stupid) argument "balanced because there is a counter" either.

The topic of this thread is to discuss a better Ether Renewal, that is to say, something that would be closer to similar energy engines.

If you can't refrain from posting off-topic arguments, I'll have to keep things tidy. If you want to tell how balanced ether renewal is, or if you want to dazzle us with your awesome anti-ether/smiter builds, feel free to use one of the zillion threads in another forum. The Sardelac Sanitarium is for suggestions. If you can't make a constructive suggestion, please post elsewhere.

Esprit · Sep 06, 2005, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Quote:

Fixed Ether Renewal #3 {Elite} - Enchantment Spell

For 10 seconds, each time you cast a spell, you gain 40-60% of the
energy cost of the spell back, plus another 20% of the spell cost for
every other enchantment on you.

This fix is not a fix, it's a completely different skill.

It's too similar to Attunement skill.

The problem with the [original] skill, is that is abused by smiters who enchant everything.

If you were to cap out the energy return, rather than make it a percentage return, then it would be better, in my opinion.

If you don't mind, I'll post an example of what I'd like to see:

For 10 seconds, each time you cast a spell, you gain 1-4 energy and 5-17 health for each enchantment on you. Max 3 enchantments

So, if you have your Energy Storage Attributes maxed out, you could at best gain 12 energy for 10 seconds.

Yes, you could potentially get back 120 Energy, IF you cast a spell once per second, and IF only you have have made energy storage one of your primary attribute slots. The skill would still have use at lower levels, and by of use also if you have fewer points in the ES attributes.

By limiting enchantments, smiters will not be able to maintain so many enchantments as easily. And the skill would only be useful if enchant strippers aren't there. As one stripped enchantment would lower max return of ER from 120 to 80 and then to 40, in 10 seconds.

edit: As health is negligable at the moment, since most are concerned about energy return, I'll mention anyways, that max health would be 51 HP per spell with 3 enchantments.