Curse

MarkyX · Sep 18, 2005, 10:42 PM // 22:42

It is come to my attention that PvP has been hitting down the crapper lately, yet again. Ether Renewal is still a godly elite among elementists, smites are still around, IWAY is the new deal, newbs think all ranger builds work, energy drain, and GvG has become of game of "let's masterbate furiously for 30 minutes since those five monk/mesmers are now playing energy denial healers."

Anet, I know you love your game. Probably to the point where you care for them more then your own children. But, please, step off that white ivory tower of yours and take a look around at ground level where we, the players are.

I've read this weeks Fansite Friday and I have to say that I'm rather unimpressed with the answer about "This is why we are keeping this and that."

Although I have never designed a commercial game before, I have created a module for Neverwinter Nights that won me a few awards (including a video card, xbox games, and money). The module is called Amulet of Zeran, a dungeon crawler that leads you to level 1 to 20. It's shit now, but at the time, it was a hack-n-slasher's wet dream.

One thing I learned while designing this module was this: Just because you like your idea, doesn't mean everyone else will.

Which brings me to the PvP standpoint, or more specifically, GvG.

It's screwed up. High rated guilds don't want to play. There is no serious goal. There is no reason to reach the top. It's like climbing a big mountain, only to see that the view at the top isn't all that great.

Quote:

Tombs of the Primeval Kings is one kind of battleground. There, when you eliminate the other team, it's all over. - Fansite Friday

The point to any game involving violence and two teams is to kill the other team.

Counterstrike required teams to control chokepoints and hold key areas in a map. Sure, you *can* plant that C4 or rescue those hostage, but you can also kill the other team.

GvG is not like that. Instead of involving the other team, GvG's design is bascailly stating "exploit me so you don't have to face the other team." Look at EP. They don't even fight, they are highest rank because they exploited a very poorly designed system, NOT fighting the other team.

Is that really how you see a highly skilled guild Anet? You don't even have to FACE the other team to reach the top?

Okay, so you want the GvG to involve a bit of strategy and somewhat slower paced then it's tombs counterpart. Understandable.

Why not make the Guild Lord function like a priest and make the NPCs a little tougher. Archers already have pindown, why not give them inc arrows (or read the wind?)? Those swordsmen can sure use power attack and galrath thrust, along with final thrust.

The NPCs should play a part in the game, I agree. They should become a threat for a highly agressive team. In order to breach into the stronghold, you have to destroy it's wall. Since GW doesn't allow that, the walls are the "NPCs". Make em somewhat tougher to tear down the defences.

Now I hear the cries of the people yelling "BUT THIS IS A GAME WHERE YOU FACE THE TEAM, NOT HTE NPCS ARRRRR"

I'm lying. I'm only hearing Nu say that

The reason why I made that suggestion is because GvG is about battlefield control. You have your base, and they have their own base. If you want straight team DM, go to tombs.

Stronger NPCs mean that if you go into the other team's turf, it gets harder. Sneaking in or capping defences slowly is a very viable strategy. Battlefield shouldn't just be "beat the other team with MASS DEATH" but stripping their defences, controling the tower, and so forth.

The problem with using the guild lord as the main goal is that sneaking in isn't a viable option, but the ONLY option. This limits what can and cannot be done, and makes GvG battles somewhat anti-climatic and predictable.

What would be more interesting, a group of five mo/me draining people who cannot die while waiting for VoD (victory or death for ya newbs), or one highly offensive and aggressive team that plans to spearhead through the front door with the use of fire eles, air eles, axe warriors, and smiting versus another build that is a mixture of traps, mesmer manipulation, and a sneaky assassin ranger?

I would *pay* to see the second one.

By downgrading the lord's role as "Mission objective" to "Priest", you would make the battle focus on the other team's players, YET still have figure out a way to get through those wicked defences and destroy their advantage, the ressing priest.

That way, the whole shibang about 'slowing paced battlefield with flag control, catapults, and so forth" will still be in effect, but the battle will take place against the other team, not the guild lord.

Besides, if the team keeps ressing, then wouldn't the only option would be to destroy the priest anyways?

Upcoming article: How to Fix Tombs

- Mark Iradian
Writer of Chronicles of Garas (A dark tech fantasy webcomic)

Moskel · Sep 18, 2005, 10:52 PM // 22:52

If you want to "Defeat the other team" go play Tombs (oh wait its a KoH map at the end, they can just sponge there too

). There is a lot to be said for being able to properly move and position a team to give you the advantage.

Changing GvG like you want though makes it worse. If you change the Guild Lord objective to that of a priest you encourge an even stronger sponge/running build because if you can never kill the enemy team then you'll eventually quit and they get a win, Picture something dumb like a bunch of W/E with Ward Against Foes, Charge! with a bunch of other good running characters (couple of barbed/spike trappers and some Monks). They just run in circles till you cry like a little girl that the fight you thought were getting actually turned into less of a fight than you ever imagined.

MarkyX · Sep 18, 2005, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Get snare.

Imagined Burdern, Pindown, water magic. They aren't a rare commodity.

Goonter · Sep 18, 2005, 11:07 PM // 23:07

I sort of agree with you markyx.
I like the idea of having a varity of pvp type matches and npcs can play a roll in giving us varity.
But I dont think if you play a match that rewards you with status should even have npcs in it.
Would you play chess with a compter AI for your king?
Once you learn the AI you work your game into the most efficent way of exploiting it.

If there needs to be a "king" then have a ninth player sub for him.
But personally, instead of making npcs harder (just makes it more annoying) make them gone.
The gameplay should come down to mano-a-mano.

Set the game up like football if you have too.
-Each team runs thier flag to the other teams base.

Or like baseball.
-Each team has to run thier flag to a few check points that the other team must defend, then switch sides.

Or even a simple deathmatch.

The matches should be something steady and predictable, much as the rules and playing fields for other sports are pretty steady and predictable, that emphasizes players going head to head.
Players should be the basemen, the goalies, the defencive line, and the kings, not npcs. imo.

Quote:

If you change the Guild Lord objective to that of a priest you encourge an even stronger sponge/running build because if you can never kill the enemy team then you'll eventually quit and they get a win, Picture something dumb like a bunch of W/E with Ward Against Foes, Charge! with a bunch of other good running characters (couple of barbed/spike trappers and some Monks). They just run in circles till you cry like a little girl that the fight you thought were getting actually turned into less of a fight than you ever imagined.

This is a problem in some of the team and random arenas. So your point is valid.
Doesnt mean an innovation in the game mechanics can not find means to expire this type of playing.
Setting time limits on matches means the team with the most points after the match ends is the winner. A group of runners could at the most succeed in a draw match.

Kai Nui · Sep 18, 2005, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Well I agree somewhat. I mean some of it's good some of it's bad. I think there should be more than just the 3 types of PvP, keep what we have and change it a bit and add a few more types.

Moskel · Sep 18, 2005, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkyX

Get snare.

Imagined Burdern, Pindown, water magic. They aren't a rare commodity.

You assume the running girlies build won't have this too? Its a lot harder to stop people to kill them than it is for people to run around a map the size of GvG.

MarkyX · Sep 18, 2005, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moskel

You assume the running girlies build won't have this too? Its a lot harder to stop people to kill them than it is for people to run around a map the size of GvG.

8 verses 1 guy.

Are you telling me one guy is going to stop all of them from casting the spell?

Moskel · Sep 18, 2005, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkyX

8 verses 1 guy.

Are you telling me one guy is going to stop all of them from casting the spell?

No they're going to cast it just fine, you just aren't going to keep it on them or kill them. People can't kill EPs 5 monks when they don't run, why do you think you're going to have better luck having enough snares to kill a build specifically designed to run around a big map and run?

How many people on your team are going to be able to keep up even? Do they eventually get you over extended and kill your people with speed boosts? Your odds of losing to the running build by trying to kill it would be a lot higher than their odds of dying to you.

Flame · Sep 19, 2005, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Has anyone played the game Savage? It is a pretty typical FPS game; you buy equipment, run around, kill the enemy. Except for one major twist. Each team has one player that, rather than be in the game, is responsible for creating buildings and researching new weapons for the rest of the team.

So, using a similar idea, why not make Guild Battles into a 9v9 affair; eight players on each team, and then one person responsible for controlling the NPCs. Now, there would have to be limitations; You cannot bring the NPCs into the enemy base, and make it so that if they go too close to the enemy base, they experience health degeneration (this is designed to still make it possible to persue enemies, but prevent players from simply having the team camp one gate and the NPCs camp the other).

This will do a number of things for the game. First, it allows people to take more action. If the enemy attacks you, you can have the NPCs defend while you attack their base. If you have them pinned in their base, you can stop a flag carrier without having to weaken your front defenses, but they can still force their way out with added firepower. Since they will not resurrect, it is a force that can be targeted first to prevent later danger, or an expendable distraction.

Of course, they will need to be balanced so that the number and power of them is less than that of the real teams, so that a team of NPCs will not defeat a BALANCED TEAM of players, but perhaps have them adapt to counter popular builds - I would love to see NPCs that used Strip Enchantment on Smite Monks, or Throw Dirt on Axe Warriors.

Moskel · Sep 19, 2005, 01:46 AM // 01:46

If you let people bring all of the archers/bodyguards out of the base say up to the flag stand you'd have to run a lot more defensive build to survive, the 10ish archers + 2 footmen + 2 bodyguards can do a lot of hurt espeically if you could control them and focus fire. I'd be running some silly build with 6 monks, 2 me/n, we'd have barbs, mark of pain, 8 edrain, some rigor mortis, cheap cover hexes and the archers would just destroy teams.

You really have to watch what you ask for, they've done a darn good job balancing tactics versus heads up combat. Its pretty hard to change things without turning the whole dynamic on its head.

I sound like a broken record on this thread but the folks at ANet have a pretty good idea of what they're doing, they do this for a living. Just because you play a game doesn't mean you're qualified to try and rewrite the rules, no matter how good you are at it.

romO · Sep 19, 2005, 01:57 AM // 01:57

i dont see the point you were trying to make about the mo/me's. im interested, but i dont get it. they just sit in their base?

Deathlord · Sep 19, 2005, 02:02 AM // 02:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flame

Has anyone played the game Savage? It is a pretty typical FPS game; you buy equipment, run around, kill the enemy. Except for one major twist. Each team has one player that, rather than be in the game, is responsible for creating buildings and researching new weapons for the rest of the team.

So, using a similar idea, why not make Guild Battles into a 9v9 affair; eight players on each team, and then one person responsible for controlling the NPCs. Now, there would have to be limitations; You cannot bring the NPCs into the enemy base, and make it so that if they go too close to the enemy base, they experience health degeneration (this is designed to still make it possible to persue enemies, but prevent players from simply having the team camp one gate and the NPCs camp the other).

This will do a number of things for the game. First, it allows people to take more action. If the enemy attacks you, you can have the NPCs defend while you attack their base. If you have them pinned in their base, you can stop a flag carrier without having to weaken your front defenses, but they can still force their way out with added firepower. Since they will not resurrect, it is a force that can be targeted first to prevent later danger, or an expendable distraction.

Of course, they will need to be balanced so that the number and power of them is less than that of the real teams, so that a team of NPCs will not defeat a BALANCED TEAM of players, but perhaps have them adapt to counter popular builds - I would love to see NPCs that used Strip Enchantment on Smite Monks, or Throw Dirt on Axe Warriors.

Love the idea, also kinda like NS mod for HL1 (Which I loved btw). You oughtta make a new topic on this idea itself. Although I doubt ANet would implent it, it's still a good idea to poke on... besides, even though I know there are flaws, what idea hasn't so far? ANet can just come and nerf it so we can find another flaw

.

romO · Sep 19, 2005, 02:40 AM // 02:40

marky or moskel, can you go through a little bit more on what EP does? it just sounds incredibly cheap, but i would like to understand it and hopefully think up a counter to it.

Goonter · Sep 19, 2005, 02:51 AM // 02:51

I dont think the Savage idea is all that great either. But it does touch on one thing that I was pointing at.
But instead of players controling NPCs, Id say, make players the NPCs.
(of course, they wouldnt be npcs then)
But yeah, a player that acts as the Guild Lord.

Though I gave other examples, heres how I could imagine one for a player becoming the Guild Lord.

-Guild lord is locked in his base.
-In order to get to a guildlord you have to take the flag stand.
-Once you take the flag stand for .....30 seconds, you unlock your access to the other teams guildlord and can take him out.
-If the other team takes the flag stand for 30 seconds your locked back out and they can have access to take out your guild lord.
-The guild lord can not leave the base.
-Once the team takes out the guild lord, the other team can not respawn (just like a guild priest)

The guild lord has the following abilities:

Shield of Purity: Max defence. Conditions and Hexes have a shorter duration. +1 health regen
Sword of Clarity: Max damage. Enchantments last 20% longer. +1 health regen

AL 80
800 health
30 energy w/ 3 pips

Self Heal
Heal yourself and all nearby creatures fo 100 points.
Cost: 5 | Cast: 1 | Recast: 10

Condition Removal
Remove all Conditions from yourself.
Cost: 5 | Cast: 1/4 | Recast: 20

Hex Removal
Remove a Hex from yourself.
Cost: 5 | Cast: 1 | Recast: 8

Stance
For 12 seconds you have a 75% chance to evade melee and arrow attacks.
Cost: 10 | Cast: - | Recast: 50

Attack1
If this attack hits you stike for +20 damage. If that foes health is above 50% that foe takes an additional +20 damage.
Cost: 5 | Cast: - | Recast: 10

Attack2
If this attack hits you strike for +20 damage. If that foes health is below 50% that foe takes an additional +20 damage.
Cost: 10 | Cast: - | Recast: 10

Attack Spell
Target foe takes 50 damage ignoring armor.
Cost: 5 | Cast: 1 | Recast: 10

The guild lord is actually a ninth player or a henchmen (npc) if need be.
There are no priest, archers, etc.

Zuggy · Sep 19, 2005, 03:12 AM // 03:12

I'm not going to go into my opinions about PvP. It would take to long, and I have a tendnecy to play devils advocate and argue the other way no matter the view.

However killing the Guild Lord isn't the only way to win in GvG. The other way is to camp the tower and keep railing on the other team until they all recieve -60% DP at which time they can't rez, our Guild has one many times doing that.

Mysterial · Sep 19, 2005, 04:14 AM // 04:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkyX

a group of five mo/me draining people who cannot die while waiting for VoD (victory or death for ya newbs)

If a group like this exists, it seems to me the flaw isn't the GvG gametype, but overpowered defensive skills that allow it to succeed. Because if these guys really "cannot die", then no matter what gametype you implement they can just sit there and defend forever until you give up and leave the game. No amount of NPC altering or rules tweaking is going to fix that.

MarkyX · Sep 19, 2005, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Has anyone played the game Savage? It is a pretty typical FPS game; you buy equipment, run around, kill the enemy. Except for one major twist. Each team has one player that, rather than be in the game, is responsible for creating buildings and researching new weapons for the rest of the team.

I remember that game. Was one of the best players and commander in it. Highly repeatitive and didn't find it very challenging.

I don't see the same situation working in GW, and I highly doubt Anet will do such huge changes to do that.

As for the EP build, what they do is get Mo/Me with energy drain, and simply stall the other team and drain them. You can't kill them, and they won't kill you. They stall until Victory or Death, when all the NPCs move away from the positions, and the three attackers on EP will gank your lord.

In other words, the *best* guild in Guild Wars is the one that doesn't even comfront the other team. EP is good at exploiting the system, not playing the game. I am glad that trash like EP is gone because they were one of the barriers in the PvP community.