Curse

Guizzy · Oct 06, 2005, 03:57 PM // 15:57

I've been seeing all these threads about IWAY or other FotM, and I've admit to participating to many of them. But the result is always the same: a group of person defends IWAY (or FotM) saying it's beatable, and another group discrediting it saying it's too prevalent. But few have approached the real reason behind all these problems: rank!

You see; rank is often used as a measure for groups to weed out bad players. It has been somewhat useful in the past, before the problems that are now rampant appeared. Now, it only splits the community and stifles innovation. (Wow; it sounds as if I'm about to start a lecture on patents!)

Let's take example of any new player to the tombs. He arrives into American District 3, and all he sees are "GLF Order Necro for IWAY", "Rank 4+ IWAY W/Mo LFG". He doesn't have much rank, so he does not manage to get into any group there. He changes districts and instantly gets picked by a blind invite PUG. They don't even get past the unworthy. No rank. He gets kicked from group (or group disbands by itself), and he gets into another random blind invite. These ones are lucky and get past the unworthy. He gets to fight against a IWAY team. He loses; still no rank. Noticed anything? Yeah, I've never said he was a bad player.

It just turned out he was only picked by bad groups. Why? BECAUSE HE HAS NO RANK! Of course, IWAY groups are not really good by themselves. But they require a minimum amount of synergy to beat. It's not a matter of being "skilled" by yourself. It's a matter of teamplay. The kind of teamplay groups that usually take Rank 0s without asking DO NOT HAVE!

Of course; he could start playing IWAY to get some fame, but keep in mind this is not the way the game was supposed to be played. Groups are supposed to be diverse and there are supposed to be experimentation with skill builds. If we allow a "meta-game" concern such as fame dictate the way we play; we will on long-term kill the community.

So I call for a boycott of groups that ask for rank before invite. There is a much better way to get good players: just ask questions about what they do and (more importantly) why they do it. If he can't answer correctly but seem a decently intelligent person; you can always give some friendly and non-condescending advice. A rank 0 with a good understanding of his build is much better than a rank 4 who has been playing exclusively IWAY up until recently. It's short, and you will get much better players.

And if anyone at ArenaNet sees this thread. Please think about what Rank does to the community. Maybe you'll find it's not worth it.

Aniewiel · Oct 06, 2005, 04:01 PM // 16:01

This is more germaine to the Sardelac Sanitarium. I will move it there.

WetWookie · Oct 06, 2005, 04:02 PM // 16:02

So what you're saying is that it is a self propelling downward spiral. Mediocre players with rank tend to get more rank because they can get into good groups while good/excelent players with no rank cannot get into good groups and so continue to have no rank. I agree that this is true but since I only really play with guildies it's not much of an issue for me.

Guizzy · Oct 06, 2005, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Indeed, this does not apply to PvP active guilds. But not everyone has the luxury to have one.

I'd like for my guild to be more active on the PvP side of things, but it's a regional (Quebec) guild with Real-Life friends I would feel bad leaving in the dust (especially since I'm the leader). So I have to play with PUGs, which would not be so bad if rank didn't break the mecanism.

Akathrielah · Oct 06, 2005, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Feel free to boycott away, not like you are the only player in the community, plenty of other people to choose from.
Seriously if people cannot see the point of the rank system by now, they need to wise up.

As I've said over and over again, it is best to make your own circle of friends in PvP and draw from them to make tombs groups. You have a friends list - use it.

Rank is best used as a metric to pick up random people to fill in the last 1 or 2slots you have left. Many groups (especially guild groups), do this already. If you want to get invited by these guild groups, become friends with some of the guild members, that way you get priority (regardless of rank) over some random player.

Guizzy · Oct 06, 2005, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akathrielah

Rank is best used as a metric to pick up random people to fill in the last 1 or 2slots you have left.

Read above. Asking questions is much better for that than rank, and it's barely longer.

Goonter · Oct 06, 2005, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Ive always felt that a better team finding and planning interface would clean up the mess often made with PUGS.

If it were so possable that players that wanted to group with other people that can create a plan with tools provide ingame then, in addition to TS and Vent (TS and Vent are an after thought for PUGs and shouldnt be expected for the common player) they could probably learn to enjoy an important part of the game thats overlooked, grouping and planning, which would aid to thier success in good teamplay, thus removing blind invites and no planning groups.

Orochim4ru · Oct 06, 2005, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Quote:

good/excelent players with no rank

Do not exist unless they're on their second account. PvE does NOT prepare you for PvP.

entropy · Oct 06, 2005, 05:17 PM // 17:17

That maybe true but that does not mean that you completely suck. Also what about all the other arena's sure they are different than 8vs8 pvp but noone is good when they first start. They learn along the way less so with the droks armor in lvl 1-10 arena's but you still learn more from loss than from victory. There are arena's along the way to learn and gain xp.

Warskull · Oct 06, 2005, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orochim4ru

Do not exist unless they're on their second account. PvE does NOT prepare you for PvP.

Incorrect, there are some phenominal players with low rank (like rank 2.) Remember tombs is not the only PvP. There are some excellent GvG focused players out there. Some members of sB and IVEX had low rank because they didn't tombs much. They were superb players and an asset to any team.

Rank does not equal skill. There are poor players with rank (I have seem some awful rank 6 players) and great players without rank. Adding that number next to someone's name does not magically make them good. It is just a sifting method for getting through all the poor players quickly. You remove good players from your potential player pool in return for being able to more quickly assemble your group. I have been in and seen rank 1-3 groups defeat rank 6-9 groups. If rank truely was an indicator of skill that would never happen. Instead rank is an indicator of tombs experience. You just hope experienced people learned something in that 180 or 1000 fame.

Guizzy also brings up the point of IWAY. With IWAY rank means even less.

Guizzy · Oct 06, 2005, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orochim4ru

Do not exist unless they're on their second account. PvE does NOT prepare you for PvP.

Of course; PvE does not.

But intelligence, teamplaying qualities and common sense do; and they do not seem to be a prerequisite to gain rank, with all those IWAY teams running around. It does not takes hours upon hours upon hours to understand how to play well if you are remotely intelligent and aware. "Knowing" the maps, the play modes is not nearly as important knowing HOW to play an intelligent and sound TEAMWORKING build, which IWAY never prepares people for. I'm rank 0, and I've been worth my slot on EVERY team I've been with. You don't believe that? Read around the posts I've written around here; I certainly do know my stuff.

So what, is it impossible I know all this stuff and still be rank 0? Must be a time-space anomaly or a software bug!

Aracos79 · Oct 06, 2005, 05:48 PM // 17:48

I think IWAY is the problem, not rank. What's happening is that you have PvP players who do nothing but form IWAY groups to "farm" fame and rank. They pick up a win or two per run by facing groups worse off than they are, but really don't accomplish anything. So in the end, they have rank, but little real skill or experience in PvP as all they know how to do is run mindless IWAY builds.

Now I hate to generalize. I'm sure there are good PvP players that run IWAY, and bad PvP players who never have. But I think this build is a contributor to the problem of rank, and ultimately diminishing its value.

Guizzy · Oct 06, 2005, 06:01 PM // 18:01

The problem with that is that we'd have to assume IWAY is too powerful, which is very debatable.

By attacking the very source: "WHY are these people farming rank?" we can resolve the problem not only of IWAY, but of every cheap FotM.

People are farming rank with IWAY (or other FotM) because you can rarely find a good group unless you have rank or play a very specific FotM build. The fun starts when you can use your death necros, your interrupt mesmers, your water elementalists, your sword warriors in PvP. As of now, if you don't have rank; it's either you waste one hour and a half looking for a group, or you play FotM. So these people play these IWAY groups until they get some fame and can get accepted in other groups.

Some think it's ok, but this is NOT the way this came was intended to be. EVERY class is supposed to have a fair chance at getting into a group, and the best way to take care of that would be by removing the incentive to play IWAY.

If they nerf IWAY too badly, all those Warriors will start running Ranger close-range Trappers or Spikers. If they remove the INCENTIVE to play IWAY, people will be forced to accept new players regardless of the rank.

Ollj · Oct 06, 2005, 06:05 PM // 18:05

i fully agree and boycott ranking with /point /laugh since 3 months.

Schorny · Oct 06, 2005, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guizzy

As of now, if you don't have rank; it's either you waste one hour and a half looking for a group, or you play FotM.

Or you take 15 to 20 minutes to form your own team.

But hey, noone does that. Complaining is easier...

Guizzy · Oct 06, 2005, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Making your own team is an option, indeed. But if the group maker doesn't assume a leader role, the group is doomed to fail.

And, believe or not, sometimes I don't feel like leading!

I'm complaining because it's a clear problem to the game I paid for. The community is broken because of something, and it needs fixing, not workarounds.

wsmcasey · Oct 06, 2005, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orochim4ru

Do not exist unless they're on their second account. PvE does NOT prepare you for PvP.

I disagree also, PvE is what prepared me for PvP. Random Arenas in PvE, fighting monsters, and gaining knowledge about your chosen profession are excellent ways to move on to tombs.

You choose who you would rather have in your PvP group:

1) An experienced PvE player with 1000 hours logged.

2) A new player with 0 hours logged, but has studied the tomb maps.

"Experience" is priceless. I guarantee you that the experienced PvE player will have a better understanding of group formation, skill choices, and enemy counter attacks. Just because PvE'rs play against monsters that are not real, doesn't mean that they can't hold their own against real people. Alot of the enemy AI in PvE is better than real people, plus the enemy AI and real people are all using the same skills! Monsters and Human players are all granted the use of the same 450 skills.

Fantus · Oct 06, 2005, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akathrielah

Feel free to boycott away, not like you are the only player in the community, plenty of other people to choose from.
Seriously if people cannot see the point of the rank system by now, they need to wise up.

I got 1,100 hours of playing GW (both PvE and PvP) and I think the OP is completely and utterly right. Maybe I will wise up after playing 2,000 hours of playing....

RazingMandre · Oct 06, 2005, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Monsters even got more skills! Some skills are for monsters only!!

But i do agree.
It's also almost impossible for a Ranger to find a decent Tomb group. Ranger are being underrated. Ppl see them as being children, loving to play with a bow, like indians or so (I really heard this as a reason one!

). And if you get invited, you land up in a full Rangerteam, 75% of the time, that try to Trap and Spirit the place. That doesn't work anymore though.

I think Rangers are pretty usefull though. With lots of interrupting skills, and Over-Time-Damage like Poison Arrow or Incediary Arrows, they deal quite some damage. That doesn't work anymore though. Monks and Ele's always get chosen first, it's just not faaaaiirrr

Sorry, that last part is whine, but i think i've made my point regarding Rangers

Razing

Medion · Oct 06, 2005, 07:08 PM // 19:08

I totally agree with Razing..

Rangers are just not seen as a good profession, but I actually do a lot of dmg, but because I just have some arrows, and an ele has some cool looks when using skills, it looks like the elementalist does everything.

What i mean is:

Some1 sees his opponent losing a lot of health, while he sees a Meteor falling on top of him. << he will automatically asume the ele did it(in most cases this is true)

But it also happens that the opponent loses a lot of health, and then they don`t see that meteor. It never comes to him that another proffesion can do so much dmg, so he will think it is just coincedence of the whole team striking at the same time.

But back on topic, I totally agree that it is frustrating to get that Rank. And especially because people who came there by PvE, and not PvP, started up there later. The PvP guy will have some rank, while the PvE guys needs to gain it. But the PvE guy actually did something to get his character up there, so he will now a lot of skills, and won`t copy his build from a forum(like this 1

So... get rid of the Rank

If u are really good in PvP, you will get good friends in PvP too. Just as PvE make friends while doing missions.