Curse

Undivine · Nov 05, 2005, 10:00 PM // 22:00

I was reading this thread and I must say, I agree with him completely. Then I started hijacking his thread with my own class idea. But I'll stop that and post it here.

I read people's class ideas and it seems to me that combining the right skills and classes we have now can achieve much the same effect. If we want to add a new class, it must be fundamentally different. Here's why my idea for the bard would be so.

There are basically four dynamics of battle:

Protection - As in keeping your team safe and healthy. There's really two ways to do this; prevent the enemy from doing damage, and adding protection or healing to the ally.

Damage - As in inflicting harm on the enemy.

Weaken - As in making enemies vulnerable to attacks.

Strengthen - As in making your allies more capable.

Each class does some of these things in their own special way. The warrior mainly does protection, because he absorbs the blows for his allies, and also does damage. The ele does damage directly, of course. The monk does protection in the most direct sense possible through healing and protection spells. Also with smiting he does damage and strengthen. The mesmer does protection on the enemies end by preventing them from casting or attacking, and also weakening by making them vulnerable to attack in certain ways. The necro can do any of the four; minions are protection and damge, blood is protection and strengthen (i.e. Blood Is Power), curses are weaken and damage. The ranger does strengthen (through spirits), damage (through his bow) and protection (with Throw Dirt, Pin Down, interruptions).

These are all very unique ways to accomplish the ends. Even if a class can do several of these, people tend to specialize in only one or two. They all do it differently too. Each class can accomplish one or two of these 4 elements very well, if done right.

Now, the strengthen dynamic is there, but nobody really does is exceptionally well. Nobody specializes in it per say, though the necro, ranger, and monk can do a decent job.

I think there should be a class that specializes in this, and the one that most easily fits is the classic bard. He can have area effect, ally boosting songs similar to the ranger's spirits and warrior's shouts. He can have some kind of energy boosting song, a few songs that increase damage in certain ways, an escape song that works like the warrior's elite Charge!, a song that increases the power of healing spells, etc. And of course, a few new ideas, like perhaps a song that increases the duration of all enchantments on allies, or a song that makes spells cost less mana. He specializes in strengthening and, to some extent, protection. He helps others do better, rather than helping himself. People do this now, but the effects are scattered accross several classes, and nobody does *just* this.

The weaken dynamic is also limited right now. The bard could also specialize in weakening, making enemies vulnerable in some way. Like for example Distraction, which makes the enemy's spells easy to interrupt. Or Taunt, which reduces the enemy's armor if he does less than 30 damage on an attack. Or Antagonize, which removes an enemy's stances. I'm just coming up with names off the top of the head, but you get the idea.

What do ya think?

thirtypercent · Nov 05, 2005, 10:01 PM // 22:01

um final fantasy 11? but yes it would be nice if they have a bard or something similar in this game. a must for future iways !

Undivine · Nov 05, 2005, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by thirtypercent

um final fantasy 11? but yes it would be nice if they have a bard or something similar in this game. a must for future iways !

lol. I'm not sure if you're agreeing or being sarcastic, but the thought of what it would do to IWAY does sound scary. Still, it's a unique idea, I think, and after you have the idea, it's just a simple matter of balancing it.

Monseir · Nov 05, 2005, 10:12 PM // 22:12

sounds...well....INTERESTING! Seriously did you read The Sea Of Trolls?

Undivine · Nov 05, 2005, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monseir

sounds...well....INTERESTING! Seriously did you read The Sea Of Trolls?

The whosa what now?

Captain Krompdown · Nov 05, 2005, 10:27 PM // 22:27

The idea of the Bard has already been discussed powerfully and convincingly by ME, CAPTAIN KROMPDOWN.

Undivine, I see your very recent Join Date, so you may not be aware of all the territory that has already been covered by your forefathers. You may be interested in reading my beat-down of all opposing views HERE:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=70490

I took the idea from The Bard's Tale, the greatest RPG from the Apple IIc era.

The Bard's Tale, by the way, also used the idea of an "Archmage." Every spellcaster started out as one of three kinds of caster (analogous to the primary professions in GW). After completely mastering a profession's line of spells, they could switch lines and learn new kinds of spells. Once all lines were fully mastered, you could go through a rite of passage to become an archmage. You could then cast all previously known spells and learn new and powerful spells that combined aspects of all sorts of magiciery...the strongest of which, of course, was the mysterious "Dreamspell"...which the game itself didn't tell youhow to cast. Without the internet to look things up on, you had to spend hours and hours of your life looking for clues throughout the game to piece together the story and casting of THE DREAMSPELL.

NatalieD · Nov 05, 2005, 10:30 PM // 22:30

A group-buff-oriented class isn't an inherently bad idea, but I'd vastly prefer the "strategist" concept someone proposed in that other thread to a bard. It's just a lot less silly than charging into battle and singing at people.

Undivine · Nov 05, 2005, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Krompdown

The idea of the Bard has already been discussed powerfully and convincingly by ME, CAPTAIN KROMPDOWN.

Sorry Kromp. The forum search feature isn't working for me for some reason. I tried looking if this idea was done.

Besides, it doesn't matter whose idea it was anyway. Just that it's a good one.

Captain Krompdown · Nov 05, 2005, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatalieD

A group-buff-oriented class isn't an inherently bad idea, but I'd vastly prefer the "strategist" concept someone proposed in that other thread to a bard. It's just a lot less silly than charging into battle and singing at people.

Ahh...leave it to Natalie to say something totally exaggerated and unnecessary.

Running into battle and "singing at people" is just as SILLY as running into battle and PRAYING at them. Try not to stick your fingers in your ears and hold your breath before actually THINKING about an idea first, ok?

Since I don't want this thread to head in the same direction as the other (lots of people complaining about Natalie being overly negative about every idea anybody has while proposing just about none of her own), I'll leave you and your nice little thread alone, Undivine. Good luck.

Undivine · Nov 05, 2005, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Right, well I read your interpretation of the bard, Krump, and while I love the idea of The Bard's Tale, the bard I had in mind was more along the lines of EverQuest's with a flavour more akin to the tradition Scottish bards of old.

But at any rate, I'm only suggesting the concept of the bard's abilities and we can leave the creative freedom to ANet.

Undivine · Nov 05, 2005, 10:52 PM // 22:52

lol
Thanks Krump, I think.

First off Natelie, area effect group buffs are not necessarily the only thing they do. There are 75 skills (more after Chapter 2 comes out) for each class. I doubt we could make all 75 of those area effect group buffs.

There should be plenty of strategy here. It's all in how you balance it. I doubt anyone would actually just buff the group. I've mentioned the weakening abilities he could do. Also, why not make him a melee guy? People have been complaining only warriors are tanks, and the Scottish bards of old were light-armor warriors and messangers.

Also, music really was used in battle throughout history. Blaring horns, banging war drums... they were there to intimidate as well as inspire. They worked too! Music during battle is not far-fetched. And ask Krump said, praying in battle is even more far-fetched.

Taunts and tricks are not neccessarily "singing" and although music may be the only thing the bard is known for today, the traditional bard was very multi-talented and served a lot of purposes.

And here's another idea I just thought of: bards are the loremasters, yes? How about a skill that lets you see a target's skill bar? Not overpowered, but very useful in PvP.

NatalieD · Nov 06, 2005, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undivine

lol
Thanks Krump, I think.

First off Natelie, area effect group buffs are not necessarily the only thing they do. There are 75 skills (more after Chapter 2 comes out) for each class. I doubt we could make all 75 of those area effect group buffs.

There should be plenty of strategy here. It's all in how you balance it. I doubt anyone would actually just buff the group. I've mentioned the weakening abilities he could do. Also, why not make him a melee guy? People have been complaining only warriors are tanks, and the Scottish bards of old were light-armor warriors and messangers.

Wait, what? I never said that they would only be buffing.

You said the class would specialize in it, and I said that would be neat.

Quote:

Also, music really was used in battle throughout history. Blaring horns, banging war drums... they were there to intimidate as well as inspire. They worked too! Music during battle is not far-fetched.

Drums and horns in a military battle is a very different thing from one guy playing music in a very small skirmish, which is the kind of fighting that Guild Wars has.

Quote:

And ask Krump said, praying in battle is even more far-fetched.

Not when it works. The monks' prayers are a kind of spell. You could just as well say that it's silly to wave a wand in the air at someone, but when a ball of fire shoots out, there's nothing silly about that.

I guess you could say that the bards are a kind of spellcaster using music as a focus. Would songs be affected by things like Backfire or Dazed?

Quote:

Taunts and tricks are not neccessarily "singing" and although music may be the only thing the bard is known for today, the traditional bard was very multi-talented and served a lot of purposes.

And here's another idea I just thought of: bards are the loremasters, yes? How about a skill that lets you see a target's skill bar? Not overpowered, but very useful in PvP.

I dunno, I think some people would get pretty upset at the idea of someone seeing their build. It doesn't bother me, but a lot of players seem to be into this secrecy thing.

Undivine · Nov 06, 2005, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Alright. I was a bit quick to defend the area-effect buffing thing. I sometimes defend a stance before people get the chance to argue against it, and I jumped the gun there. Sorry.

I could say though that mid-battle music is not silly if the effect is the strengthening of one's allies, so by the line of reasoning you use to defend spellcasting, what's silly about battle music?

I don't know what kind of effect songs have. They seem kind of like a natural high to me. But it's not a problem. First of all, the ranger has natural rituals, and as near as I can tell, nothing can counter those. Secondly, they'll be adding new skills. Naturally some of those skills will be designed to counter some of the new classes.

As for seeing someone's build... yeah, maybe that's a bit strong. Maybe. I don't PvP, so I didn't really understand how personal those build can be.

NatalieD · Nov 06, 2005, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undivine

I could say though that mid-battle music is not silly if the effect is the strengthening of one's allies, so by the line of reasoning you use to defend spellcasting, what's silly about battle music?

If the songs are magical, that's different. I got the impression that they were intended to be more like warrior shouts, though.

Perishiko ReLLiK · Nov 06, 2005, 02:56 AM // 02:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatalieD

A group-buff-oriented class isn't an inherently bad idea, but I'd vastly prefer the "strategist" concept someone proposed in that other thread to a bard. It's just a lot less silly than charging into battle and singing at people.

Silly eh? People have had "bards" in real life wars if you really think about it... the drum role, the retreating horn... not much of "story tellers" they are, but they do use their "silly" singing and instruments. The indians use to chant before their battles to raise up a high morale and be more pumped up... I don't think i need to point out more.

Think about it differently and you may like the idea of it... But, of course... some people differ in their views and see things in only "their" way. Rather then thinking of what it really could be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatalieD

Drums and horns in a military battle is a very different thing from one guy playing music in a very small skirmish, which is the kind of fighting that Guild Wars has.

No, actually it's not. Both are battles, both are fights. Seriously, get off your idea's of what you "think" a bard is... and open up to other idea's. There's not just one "bard" type. Of course some "bards" could be quite silly and i agree, but not all have to be...

Symeon · Nov 06, 2005, 08:12 AM // 08:12

sounds interesting enough to me, although I've stated before that all new class ideas are mixtures of the already existing classes. However maybe it's fair to say that the mesmer is a mix of ele and necro curses? Meh.
But keep the ideas comin

BannyD · Nov 06, 2005, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Elite Song - Morale Boost

anyone play neverwinter nights/D&D...the bard has many uses in there all from spell casting (weaker than a mage though) to singing (exactly the same as shouts here)

the bard was pretty much a mixture of mage and melee..which is what we would like..no?

Undivine · Nov 07, 2005, 05:01 AM // 05:01

Yeah, I played NWN. I even played a bard all the way through the second and third campagn (never could find much interest in the original campagn).

I must admit, the bard was useless during last boss (I didn't do the thing you can do to avoid the last boss battle). But boy, the songs were amazing - both the boosting one and the cursing one. I really like the selection of spells too, though they weren't great against anything with enchantment immunity.

And of course, I enjoyed the luxury of being the charming one who could talk anything out of a person.