Curse

blackbird71 · Jul 08, 2005, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Rangers have long been my favorite class in many different games, so naturally when I started playing GW, my first and favorite character is a ranger.

Forgive me if some of these ideas have been posted elsewhere, I haven't read every post in the forums. In the course of my playing, I've come to find a few things about the ranger class that need a little work.

Firstly, pets: there is a debate about how useful pets are, I'm not here to discuss that, but what can be done with them. I've found a pet to be a valuable ally in many situations, and extra baggage in others. There are a few simple things to be done that could streamline gameplay with pets

For instance, when your party dies and is resurrected by the nearest academy monk, your dead pet remains laying on the battlefield. The only way to regain it is to go back to the same location and use comfort animal, or leave the area completely, either way, you have to do a lot of fighting while missing the use of your beast skills, which are useless without the pet, just in order to get those skills back. The pet needs to be revived when the rest of the party is.

Also, in order to take a pet with you, it is almost mandatory to fill two skill slots before even adding any special pet attacks - charm animal and comfort animal. One fourth of your skill bar is automatically gone if you choose to use a pet, which if you are using any other class of skills, greatly limits your options. I would recommend combining the two skills into one, let the charm animal skill work as a pet heal/res skill when you already have a trained pet.

Next topic? Bows. Rangers have one weapon. Period. I don't want to hear the argument "but there are all different kinds of bows" - with the exception of some variation in speed and range they are the same weapon. I know all swords swing at the same rate. What's different about a ranger's weapon and a sword or axe or fire spells or blood magic is this: all other classes' weapons/spells/attacks each depend on one attribute. Sometimes, they may be affected by a second attribute, but putting points into swords will in no way improve your hammer knockdowns. Points in earth magic are not going to supplement your air spells. However, in order for a ranger to be a truly effective archer, he/she must put points into three separate attributes: marksmanship, expertise, and wilderness survival. Why? because there are arrow attacks which depend on each of these attributes. In order to be the best shot or have the most arrow tricks, marksmanship is not enough, and in a game where effective characters usually only have their points spread out into 3 attributes, your character becomes seriously limited and any secondary class attributes or beastmaster skills must be discarded for the true archer.

The answer to this is simple: Traps. Rangers are supposed to be very skilled with traps, they are supposed to be one of the main options a ranger has to use in combat. I've known a handful of players who have been extremely successful with traps, making characters who use nothing but traps. But traps depend on Wilderness Survival, as do some arrow attacks. That's right, one attribute affects two completely different sets of skills!!! The arrow attacks in Wilderness Survival need to be moved to marksmanship, and Wilderness Survival needs to be solely a trap-oriented attribute (ok, Troll Ungent can staty there too, that makes sense).

My point is that whereas other classes have one attribute for a set of skills, and only one set of skills for an attribute, Ranger has 3 attributes that affect one skills set, and two skill sets dependant on one attribute. The Ranger skills and attributes are so intertwined, that it makes for very few options. You must be either an archer or a beastmaster, not some combination of both, unlike say a warrior, who could be both a swordsman and a tactician, or a monk, who could choose to heal and protect or heal and smite, or smite and protect for that matter. With a ranger, the decision is made for you. If you will be a good archer, you must forgo any useful level of ability in a secondary class. To sacrifice points in any of the 3 attributes is to be mediocre at your primary set of skills.

These are my experiences with the game, please let me know what you think, am I way off base or right on target? For any rangers out there, do you think these suggestions would enhance your game and give you more options, or would this unbalance the whole system? I'd love to hear what others have to say on this.

toastgodsupreme · Jul 08, 2005, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Rangers rely on bows and energy based bow skills, yet, like the OP said, we have to invest in at least 2 attributes just for that type of attack to be useful (Marksmanship and expertise if you wish to use your arrow skills regularly).

Not to mention the arrow/ranger attack skills that fall into the two other attributes...
Tigers Fury - BM (which many can argue is ONLY in the BM attribute because of it's name, which is a ridiculous reason to have it there)
Poison Arrow - WS
Melandru's Arrows - WS
Kindle Arrows - WS
Incendiary Arrows - WS
Ignite Arrows - WS
Apply Poison - WS

As far as energy... sigh. Yes, we have expertise, but there go 12, almost 13, attribute points if you want a sizable reduction in costs on skills. And this ONLY affects ranger skills AFAIK. So that 25 energy elemental skill you're sporting will still run you 25 energy. It's not like a higher starting energy pool would give us an advantage over monks or any other class (we still have 1 pip less than Ele/Mes/Mo/Ne).

We have no +energy mods for our bows. I'd love grips that did UP TO +10 energy.

And believe me, I'd love to wear something other than my druid gear.

Enigmatics · Jul 08, 2005, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Since rangers have very few secondary skills in use (usually) they can carry a staff with +10 to energy on switch to ease the energy cost.

toastgodsupreme · Jul 08, 2005, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enigmatics

Since rangers have very few secondary skills in use (usually) they can carry a staff with +10 to energy on switch to ease the energy cost.

Which is immensely useful when I need that energy for my arrow skills.

blackbird71 · Jul 09, 2005, 03:23 AM // 03:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by toastgodsupreme

Rangers rely on bows and energy based bow skills, yet, like the OP said, we have to invest in at least 2 attributes just for that type of attack to be useful (Marksmanship and expertise if you wish to use your arrow skills regularly).

Not to mention the arrow/ranger attack skills that fall into the two other attributes...
Tigers Fury - BM (which many can argue is ONLY in the BM attribute because of it's name, which is a ridiculous reason to have it there)
Poison Arrow - WS
Melandru's Arrows - WS
Kindle Arrows - WS
Incendiary Arrows - WS
Ignite Arrows - WS
Apply Poison - WS

As far as energy... sigh. Yes, we have expertise, but there go 12, almost 13, attribute points if you want a sizable reduction in costs on skills. And this ONLY affects ranger skills AFAIK. So that 25 energy elemental skill you're sporting will still run you 25 energy. It's not like a higher starting energy pool would give us an advantage over monks or any other class (we still have 1 pip less than Ele/Mes/Mo/Ne).

We have no +energy mods for our bows. I'd love grips that did UP TO +10 energy.

And believe me, I'd love to wear something other than my druid gear.

Let's not forget Distracting Shot and Point Blank Shot which are Expertise based skills! Regardless of energy use, it takes a full 3 attributes to take advantage of arrow attacks.

Raptorlead · Jul 09, 2005, 05:05 PM // 17:05

we need more types of weapons too, ie. crossbows, throwing knives and stars, regular knives and daggers, and we also need more stealth abilities (hey a ranger relys on stealth dont he)

Principa Discordia · Jul 09, 2005, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptorlead

we need more types of weapons too, ie. crossbows, throwing knives and stars, regular knives and daggers, and we also need more stealth abilities (hey a ranger relys on stealth dont he)

I'm all for my ranger having access to more weapons, but you're talking about making it into a ninja. I don't want to be a ninja.

Blow_Holez · Jul 09, 2005, 05:58 PM // 17:58

You're suggestions could be implemented, and I totally agree with toastgodsupreme that tigers fury does not belong in the beast master skills. Also, it would be neat to see weapons such as throwing knives implemented into it, or maybe javelins. just somethign different that are still ranged attacks.

Tater_Knuts · Jul 09, 2005, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Long ago I stopped carrying 'Comfort Animal'. Two slots for a pet is just too expensive. I consider my pet a valuable asset, and protect it as much as I can, it's just very rare that my pet gets killed. I find it incongruous that a pet can be healed by a third party, but not ressurected. I also originally thought it was not proper that your pet auto-resurrects when you go through a gate, but now I think it goes along with the general "no hash death penalties" philosphy of the game.

I do think that Rangers are somewhat penalized using a 2-handed weapon. I would like to see grips and such that increase energy. I also think that a Ranger should be able to have Bracer or Buckler type sheilds, just like real archers had, that are worn on the arm.

R F O X · Jul 09, 2005, 10:27 PM // 22:27

I fully agree that rangers do some help in this game. but......
we cannot make the ranger class uber to this rest like is being talked about here.

It is all about what you want to be and from what i can see in this post you are wanting the ranger to be everything at once, that will never happen.

BEAST MASTER
Best build for this would be a R/W and carry a sword/axe & shield or a hammer.
Fight side by side with your pet, dont send him off in battle by himself,
plus then you dont have to put att. points into marks or wilderness.

INTERUPTER
Best build for this would be a R/Me and use half moon/short bow also limit your Mesmer skills that your going to use to one att.
Att. points would go Marks (only need 8-9 for this build) wilderness, expertise what ever you have left over would go into your mesmer att. that you choose.

CONDITIONER
Best build for this would also be a R/Me and use half moon/short bow also limit your Mesmer skills that your going to use to one att.
Att. points would go in Marks (only need 8-9 for this build) high wilderness, expertise what ever you have left over would go into your mesmer att. that you choose.

TRAPPER
Best build for this is R/Mo use some type of staff or wand with off hand item that gives you energy. b/c as a trapper only you are only support.
Att.points would go into high wilderness, expertise and what monk att you choose.

ARCHER
Best build for this is Ranger only with bow that has good mods
Att. points would go in high marksmanship,wilderness,expertise.
plus as a ranger only you have plenty of stance or other means to help you evade attacks.

Now i am not saying that a-net is perfet in the way they built the ranger we do need some help, and some quivers bucklers,hoods,or bows that had different req like expertise or wilderness with energy boost would be very very nice.

Just remeber that when you chose the ranger class as primary you have chosen the hardest class to play in this game.

MoldyRiceFrenzy · Jul 10, 2005, 12:46 AM // 00:46

beast masters dont work well in pvp... never seen a good one at least =)

Tellani Artini · Jul 10, 2005, 02:57 AM // 02:57

I don't agree with much of this. I think pets are fine how they are gameplay-wise, but the AI snags need to go. Try a 15BM/12Marks/9Expertise build with ferocious strike, you might like it. You can make a good ranger without wilderness survival, just like you can make a good warrior without tactics or a good necro without blood magic. Tiger's Fury is fine where it is. You could always use frenzy instead. I haven't seen a reasonable suggestion for an extra ranger weapon yet, in this thread at least.

There are some problems with pet resurrection. If my pet dies in a GvG match, it resurrects at the 2 minute mark back at base, possibly before I can res it with comfort animal. On most guild halls, I have to run back and get it; Warrior's/Wizard's/Hunter's isles have those gates it can't get out of. The fix: Only res the pet in this way if its owner is being ressed too. In PvE, ressing the pet with the rest of the party after a wipeout would be nice.

I'm with RFox. When rangers try to be the "jack of all trades" like everyone says they are, they're not great at anything. Just like every other class, a ranger should find his niche and stick with it.

Zeru · Jul 10, 2005, 05:32 AM // 05:32

Rangers are great at energy denial :-P

I don't see any underpowered/overpowered elements in this post at a quick glance which is good. The main concern seems to be that rangers are different than every other class. But...so what? Yes they have the best primary attribute in the game, yes practically every ranger setup needs 13-14 and a superior expertise rune. There are many many ways to make a ranger even still. They're different, not a big deal. And also, bow rangers don't need wilderness survival at all, look at this sample:

10+1+3 expertise
11+1 marksmanship
3+1 BM
Secondary prof attribute line

Tigers Fury
Barrage {E}
Distracting Shot
Debilitating Shot
Some type of enchant buff
Dual Shot
-
-

blackbird71 · Jul 11, 2005, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tellani Artini

I don't agree with much of this. I think pets are fine how they are gameplay-wise, but the AI snags need to go. Try a 15BM/12Marks/9Expertise build with ferocious strike, you might like it. You can make a good ranger without wilderness survival, just like you can make a good warrior without tactics or a good necro without blood magic. Tiger's Fury is fine where it is. You could always use frenzy instead. I haven't seen a reasonable suggestion for an extra ranger weapon yet, in this thread at least.

There are some problems with pet resurrection. If my pet dies in a GvG match, it resurrects at the 2 minute mark back at base, possibly before I can res it with comfort animal. On most guild halls, I have to run back and get it; Warrior's/Wizard's/Hunter's isles have those gates it can't get out of. The fix: Only res the pet in this way if its owner is being ressed too. In PvE, ressing the pet with the rest of the party after a wipeout would be nice.

I'm with RFox. When rangers try to be the "jack of all trades" like everyone says they are, they're not great at anything. Just like every other class, a ranger should find his niche and stick with it.

yes, you can make a "good" ranger without wilderness survival, but you can't make the "best" archer without it, wheras a warrior can be the "best" swordsman without axes, and a monk can be the "best" healer without smiting. Every other class has the ability to specialize in a specific area, the ranger's skills are spread thin and intertwined.

Why is Tiger's Fury fine where it is? Give me one logical reason why a bow attack should be linked to control over animal?

I'll agree with you on one thing, the ranger doesn't need any other weapons, the bow is fine. Save throwing knives for thieves, crossbows for those who can't aim straight.

What ranger's need is improvement on what they've got: traps. They're supposed to be an important part of the class, but there are no low level trap skills, and the traps' attribute affects everything else as well. I don't want new stuff for rangers, I just want to clean up what we're supposed to have.

blackbird71 · Jul 11, 2005, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptorlead

we need more types of weapons too, ie. crossbows, throwing knives and stars, regular knives and daggers, and we also need more stealth abilities (hey a ranger relys on stealth dont he)

A ranger is a hunter, and while that does mean he relys on stealth to get close to his target, I think adding those skills would complicate this game beyond its intentions. If you really wanted stealth in the game, I think the best way would be to add another profession, such as a thief, and if you really wanted a stealth ranger, take it for your secondary.

Now that that's out of the way, can we stick to the original topic? This isn't about what new things can be added to rangers, but about what is right or wrong with the current distribution of skills vs attributes in the current ranger setup. Thanks

PAC · Jul 11, 2005, 06:50 AM // 06:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tellani Artini

Tiger's Fury is fine where it is.

Yes and no. Tiger's Fury is a stance very similar to lightning reflexes and it would make a lot more sense to tie it to expertise, thus, boosting your attack speed would force you to make a tradeoff between those two skills' properties. The only reason I see it's placed in BM is for balancing, given that it's such an excellent skill (in other words: who would use lightning reflexes if both were expertise?). Who knows, given the popularity of Apply Poision, we probably see this one soon in BM also. How about Apply Poision Frogs

Ashley Twig · Jul 11, 2005, 07:49 AM // 07:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tater_Knuts

I also think that a Ranger should be able to have Bracer or Buckler type sheilds, just like real archers had, that are worn on the arm.

I agree that there should be shields for rangers.
Maybe they can be worn on your back. So you're at least saver from enemies that strike from behind.

Thomasuwoo · Jul 11, 2005, 11:29 AM // 11:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by toastgodsupreme

As far as energy... sigh. Yes, we have expertise, but there go 12, almost 13, attribute points if you want a sizable reduction in costs on skills. And this ONLY affects ranger skills AFAIK. So that 25 energy elemental skill you're sporting will still run you 25 energy. It's not like a higher starting energy pool would give us an advantage over monks or any other class (we still have 1 pip less than Ele/Mes/Mo/Ne).

They do NOT only effect ranger skills. They effect any skill that is listed as a SKILL such as vampiric touch. It also effects warrior shout and weapon attacks. And yes a higher energy pool WOULD give us an advantage because...

Quote:

Originally Posted by toastgodsupreme

We have no +energy mods for our bows. I'd love grips that did UP TO +10 energy.

Try using a zealous bow string. Combine this with barrage or dual shot or even tigers fury. You shouldn't have many energy problems now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by toastgodsupreme

And believe me, I'd love to wear something other than my druid gear.

Then go the whole nine yards and bring marksmens wager. Rangers have to manage their energy just like any other class. With expertise it it a fairly easy thing to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoldyRiceFrenzy

beast masters dont work well in pvp... never seen a good one at least =)

You should have been on last night

http://www.geocities.com/thomasuwoo/proof.gif

I don't see how rangers are disadvantaged with their current set of skills at all. For starters they only have 4 differnt atributes to choose from. It gives you the ability to spread your skill points around and be a very versatile and effective character. I don't see why everybody seems to think they need 12-16 points in an atribute to be effective with it.

For an effective ranger with little to no wilderness survival try using Barrage as it removes the need for preperations or Practiced stance combined read the wind.
Some of your best attacks such as dual and deabilitating shot aren't even linked to any atributes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbird71

Why is Tiger's Fury fine where it is? Give me one logical reason why a bow attack should be linked to control over animal?

Tigers Fury is on the beast mastery atribute for a very good reason. It's very powerful. Combined with expertise it can be used over and over. There are many other great and useful skills on the beast master side as well that do not involve pets. Edge of extinction is an amazinly powerful and deadly spirt. Energising winds is another good example.
And tigers fury i not a bow attack it's a stance. It increases attack speed with ANY weapon. Not just bows.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbird71

yes, you can make a "good" ranger without wilderness survival, but you can't make the "best" archer without it, wheras a warrior can be the "best" swordsman without axes, and a monk can be the "best" healer without smiting. Every other class has the ability to specialize in a specific area, the ranger's skills are spread thin and intertwined.

But can you make the "Best" Warrior without stregth? Can you make the "Best" Healer without Devine favor? Refer to above about specalising with a ranger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbird71

Let's not forget Distracting Shot and Point Blank Shot which are Expertise based skills! Regardless of energy use, it takes a full 3 attributes to take advantage of arrow attacks.

Distracting shot is still usefull with 0 exertise. it's not about dmg but the fact that it interupts ANYTHING (Including the ghostly hero's claim resource)
Point Blank shot I find is something I've only ever used with one ranger of mine... And he had a grand total of 3 marksmenship and 0 wilderness survival. I only brough point blank shot for PvE where I needed to do some dmg. In PvP I stick to my role of warrior shouting, spirts, and disruptions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tater_Knuts

Long ago I stopped carrying 'Comfort Animal'. Two slots for a pet is just too expensive. I consider my pet a valuable asset, and protect it as much as I can, it's just very rare that my pet gets killed. I find it incongruous that a pet can be healed by a third party, but not ressurected.

They can be through use of the skill revive animal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashley Twig

I agree that there should be shields for rangers.
Maybe they can be worn on your back. So you're at least saver from enemies that strike from behind.

I do not. Rangers have the best armour in the game seccond only to the warriors armour. And theirs has much greater Elemental resistance. If you really want a sheild play as a Ranger/Warrior

That pretty much covers everything so far. If anyone would genuanly belives the rangers are underpowered and need a boost give me a good reason.

Erace · Jul 11, 2005, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptorlead

we need more types of weapons too, ie. crossbows, throwing knives and stars, regular knives and daggers, and we also need more stealth abilities (hey a ranger relys on stealth dont he)

im all for more weapons too, hell i dont mind being converted to a Ninja, ninjas rule, i dont like Crossbows tho, Throwing Knives would be a very nice idea to have, and i agree some more stealth abilities are needed, but im an Interupter so i dont mind if they are not put in.

As an intrupter i think that knives would be useful because

a. they would travel faster (i think) which is useful for an interupter
and
b. they would probably cost less energy to use.

Tellani Artini · Jul 11, 2005, 03:09 PM // 15:09

give rangers ninja stars and nunchuks olol

Thomas hit the nail on the head about TF. Yes, it's a matter of balance. Don't you think rangers would be a tad bit overpowered if they could all get a side order of 11 second TF with their McExpertise 14?