Curse

Drake1132 · Nov 12, 2005, 10:20 PM // 22:20

I realize that this update has been harped on quite a lot in the forums at pretty much every fan site and info site there is, but I want to throw in my 2 cents worth...

First, I wish to make it clear that while I'm not happy with the update, this is purely from selfish reasons, namely the fact that my builds which were designed solely for massive AoE damage no longer work, however, I'm not here to complain about that. Instead, I wish to try and take a look at this from a more objective standpoint and instigate what I hope will be a healthy and intelligent discussion (as opposed to a flame-war which never gets anything accomplished). And in the end there will always be those of us who simply will not ever agree on the issue, and I'm ok with that. You are, after all, entitled to your opinion, and as long as you recognize that I too am entitled to mine there shouldn't be any problems.

So here's my view of this update...

First, I like the idea that the computer driven characters (that is, npc's, henchmen, and mobs) have theoretically been made "smarter". And while it has become clear in the last couple of days that some buggy-ness has been introduced, it also seems that ArenaNet is doing their best to correct those issues, so we need not complain about them further. Also, it is my opinion that having mobs run away when they are being targeted by non-aoe attacks isn't all bad either. I mean let's face it, with the exception of warrior builds of various sorts who are deliberately designed for point-blank combat, we ALL try to put distance and obstacles between ourselves and our attackers, so why shouldn't the mobs do the same? Besides, it makes the game more challenging, and challenges are what make life, even virtual life, worth living, so long as it is possible to overcome them with time and effort and some learning. I do however have a couple of issues with the update.

Firstly, while I'm ok with mobs running and even running from non-aoe attacks, I'm not so ok with them running out to the edge of radar range and aggroing another 1-3 (sometimes more) groups of mobs and potentially bringing about a party-wipe. And this is of particular concern with missions where a party wipe means that you have to start the mission over. I think that they should be more restricted in how far they run.

Also, I have two AoE rangers, one ranger/elementalist, and one ranger/necro, and with each of them I usually bring along my pet. This has led me to discover a particular annoyance with the use of pets and controlling them (or rather an almost total lack of control)... Basically, in order to get your pet to attack a particular target at the opening of combat, you have to click on the target... pressing the space bar doesn't work. And while pressing the space bar will get henchmen to switch to your current target if you had changed targets, the pet will not change targets like that, and even if you click on the new target the pet seems to largely ignore you and stay focused on it's original target. The primary result of this is that if your target runs, and you change targets to try and avoid aggroing another group of mobs, your pet will still follow the original target and will almost ALWAYS aggro the next group or two of mobs. This is decidedly dangerous and makes pets a substantial liability. In effect this means that this latest update did not only nerf AoE's, but also nerfed pets. The simple solution for this one would be to give players more control over their animal companions and undead minions. All that has to be done is for all animal companions and undead minions to ALWAYS attack whatever target their master is attacking.

And my last issue with this update is as follows... The most significant and noticeable affect of this update is that damage over time AoE's like Fire Storm, Chaos Storm, Symbol of Wrath, or any multiple strike AoE like Ignite Arrows or Mark of Pain, etc. now deals substantially less damage to less creatures over the time duration because the creatures scatter and avoid the affected area. However, those spells and skills still cost the same amount of energy, have the same short durations, and have the same long recharge timers. This effectively has made such skills almost totally useless except as crowd control, and barely useful for that. Their base efficiency has been so badly decreased by this update that it makes it almost pointless to have such spells and skills on your skill bar at all. And since energy management and efficiency is ALWAYS a concern, and also since we are only allowed to have 8 spells/skills memorized at any one time, this means that these skills and spells will rarely be on anyones skill bar anymore. Why even leave them in the game?

Of course, the efficiency problem could be remedied by any combination of the following changes... 1) Make these skills deal more damage per shot; 2) Make them cost less energy to cast; 3) Make them recharge faster so they can be used more frequently if need be; and 4) Reduce their casting times. Now, simply reducing recharge times or casting times by themselves would do nothing to improve the efficiency in question, so those changes would have to be in combination with one or both of the first two suggestions. Also, these changes wouldn't have to be major changes... some slight adjustments here and there could go a long way to making those skills useful again.

So there it is, my 2cp worth. Now I know that the developers of Guild Wars keep their eyes on message boards like this one to see what the players are saying, and we want, and I think that's AWESOME. So let's make use of that and tell them what we want. If you agree with all or part of what I've said, please post your opinion, and likewise, if you disagree, please post that as well. I only request that you avoid any and all flames and try to give rational and logical reasons for your claims. If you think that the update is perfect just as it is, then say so, but say WHY you feel that way. I think you all should have the picture by now. And if we get enough useful and worthwhile comments from people on a single, easily referenced post (like this one perhaps) then that makes it easier on ArenaNet to know what we are saying, why we are saying it, and try and make good decisions about it.

Thanks,
Drake

4runner · Nov 12, 2005, 10:45 PM // 22:45

well I argee with alot of what you have said, Aoe, mobs running away, and the aggro of additional mobs all worthy of concern. I like that fact that mobs diperse when takin maasive damage, makes for a more interesting battle! Inprovise and adapt mentallity. As far as skill s being adjusted for the new update, I really not concerned much for this, but then again im sure theres alot of others whom would prefer slight tweaks to the skills. Drake written ver y well and iLL have to agree wit yah!! Updates usually require further tweaking but looks like Anet has been on the ball!!

kendaki · Nov 12, 2005, 10:45 PM // 22:45

I completely agree with you here. This has caused some severe problems with many builds. It's almost pointless to have any AoE spells period now due to the constant scattering of foes. This leads to even more problems in trying to manage aggro and deal with stronger groups of enemies. The whole point of an Ele's job is to do mass damage to small groups to make the warriors job easier by ending combat quicker. I have a feeling this update was just a catch-all addition to somewhat nerf the solo monks that still do well in UW and in the desserts. But there has to be some limits to this update. Something to make it so AoE's don't end up doing more harm than good by scattering groups causing more aggro as they are chased down. I could see side stepping a few feet for some creatures but others it just doesn't make sense. I can see the importance of trying to make the enemies smarter but such a drastic change to the AI has turned AoE spells into little more than a reason not to party with builds that were notorious for area damage. Echo nukers, now make enemies scatter like roaches when you turn on the light. Rangers, forced to run down their targets like tracking a wounded animal. Mesmers using Chaos Storm are now useless for draining energy from foes. Granted these problems could be fixed with simple build changes, but switching to only single target spells cuts the skill lists for many classes in half. I could be exaggerating a bit but suffice it to say this new update has all but ruined the appeal of many good builds that have become favorites of many players.

Sorry that's my two cents on the matter. I personally like the fact that they are trying to make the AI smater but then again making them too smart can end up making the game more challenging than it really needs to be.

Loviatar · Nov 12, 2005, 11:08 PM // 23:08

while all the people were complaining when it first came out i sent a message with the following points which i hope will be delt with as data comes in.

only the DOT AOE were effected so i suggested changing DOT to lesser flash one shot damage like fireball while retaining the barrier ignoring effect of firestorm or searing heat

instead of a long lasting (10 sec) storm doing about 300 damage with high cost in recharge/energy give it the lesser cost of maybe 10 energy with a 7 sec recharge and maybe 100-112 damage (think lightning except fire effect)

scale the cast down to what the damage does but leave those few not line of sight skills useful

Jczech · Nov 12, 2005, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Instead of thinking "These AoE spells are useless", think "How can I put these skills to better use with the smarter AI?"

Let's assume a E/Me Fire Nuker. Flare, Fireball, Meteor, Meteor shower, Fire Storm, Arcane Echo, Glyph of Renewal, and Fire Attunement. While mostly effective, it loses a lot due to many area spells. Instead of waiting for the Warriors to tank, then nuking them and having them scatter, use some single target spells. Immolate instead of Fire Storm, Rodgort's Invocation instead of Meteor Shower. Instead of casting your area spell and having them scatter, use area spells that will do all their damage at once and, if possible, do damage/debilitate them while they run around.

Spells like fireball and meteor can be used to spike a target for more damage than flare and finish them off quickly. With the added benefit that it knocks them down first (and then sends the monster scattering) allows you to get in another spell to finish them off.

Consider taking point blank AoE spells like Inferno. Getting alot of hate from warriors? Use Inferno and send them scattering. Too many enemies on your monk(s)? Hit them with an AoE spell to break their attacks and have them switch.

Constant damage AoE spells like Meteor Shower and Fire Storm still have uses. If the enemy is pinned in place (body blocked) you can safely nuke them silly while they can't run to escape it. A few warriors can do this, so can a minion master (They can usually pin several targets due to the sheer number of minions). Rangers with traps or a hydromancer with AoE slowing spells can help your spells get in a few extra hits. One of my favourite combinations is to cast Meteor Shower, and immediately follow up with Meteor. The Meteor should finish casting just after they get up from the first Meteor Shower hit, so they'll fall back down, then get hit with the second Meteor Shower hit. If you have multiple Pyromancers, more meteor showers may be able to keep them knocked down long enough to keep them down.

I've only showed how some of the AoE spells can be put to better use, and how skill bars can be modified to do other things than nuke. I'm sure people can figure out how to make the others work

To quote Gaile Gray from LA yesterday - "Adapting would be good. That is what fighters, and hunters, have always done."

Anyway, just my two cents on how to be a better caster with smarter monsters.

Nighteye · Nov 12, 2005, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Changing the spells would unbalance PvP. I think what's needed is a delay before they start running - a reaction time, of sorts. Maybe 1 second after the first AoE spell damage hits them or something like that.

Loviatar · Nov 12, 2005, 11:54 PM // 23:54

i already said part of that and the usefulness you mentioned does not work with henchies at all and seldom will a human group have the opportunity to hold them in the line of fire.
for the damage they do in relation to cost in energy/recast time they are useless.

cheapest is firestorm and you get much more damage from one fireball which can be fired in 7 sec.

meteor shower is a 5 sec cast with an ungodley high energy cost plus exhaustion.

they have become short term area denial spells at very high cost to use.

the DOT AOE spells have become useless for their original intent which was an indirect high level high damage attack

jonnybegood · Nov 12, 2005, 11:55 PM // 23:55

duse this thread should be closed like the others, there is already a thread about this topic , plz post it there.

Drake1132 · Nov 13, 2005, 12:03 AM // 00:03

Just a quick point... I didn't say that AoE's are now useless, what I said was that because of the nerfed efficency of the DOT AoE's those particular AoE's have become nearly useless. Can they still be used in select situations under specific circumstances? Certainly. But the real problem is one of the fact that those circumstances occur infrequently at best, and that the scatter aspect of the new AI is not restricted only to DOT AoE's but seems to be any and all damage... I've had mobs run from my un-preped standard bow shots, so getting the to group up by pinning them down seems to me to be a waste of energy. Those slots on the skillbar that had once held the DOT AoE's are now better and more effeciently used for other, non-DOT-AoE skills and spells. The efficiency issues of the DOT AoE's is too large to simply think to yourself "I'll bring along my <insert DOT AoE here> just in case I get the chance to use it" because the fact is, you will almost never get to use it... it's just taking up space.

Now stacking multiple AoE spells that cause knockdown and/or movement rate decreases and then dropping a DOT AoE and trying to keep the enemies locked into range is possible, but relies heavily on slow-casting spells which cause exhaustion. Some people may be willing to make that trade off as an elementalist and others may not... But what about AoE character builds that don't have an elementalist class as part of their character design? Mark of Pain can be truly powerful when combined with skills like Cyclone Axe or Ignite Arrows or Barrage, etc, but now it can last at most for two strikes before everything goes out of range to be affected by it, and it still takes 10 energy to cast (possibly still reasonable for what it does) and 30 seconds to recast (certainly not very worthwhile anymore). So sure, Mark of Pain lasts for 30 seconds, but it will only be effective for 2 or 3 of those seconds before the target figures out how much of a danger it is to it's buddies and tries to keep away from them (not to mention its buddies figuring out what a danger they're in themselves and avoiding the target... compounded avoidance).

Are AoE's still usefull then? ABSOLUTELY, but the specific variety of AoE's in question, that is DOT AoE's, while still being usefull in some instances, are no longer efficient enough to justify the use of the skill slot for many palyers (including me as I'm sure you've all guessed). Other players may still be willing to take them along, but I think that choice will be rare and will become even more rare as players start to pay attention to how infrequently they actually use those sills now.

I've spent a lot of time thinking about this the last couple of days, trying to figure out how to still make sufficient use of these skills and it seems to me that their only consistent usability is to get creatures to scatter when they're grouping up on a party member like the healer... you could concievably save a healer or a tank that way, by making their attackers leave the area and thus leave the endangered party member alone for at least a little while... possibly long enough to be saved outright from a grim death. But the energy cost and recharge times of these spells (and often the base casting time as well) make them of limited use for even that purpose, and the other possibilities, as I've said, occurr very rarely.

So then, do strategies of AoE nukers of various sorts now need to be rethought? Of course they do. But this doesn't change the fact that the DOT AoE's are now much less efficient.

Drake

Mentalmdc · Nov 13, 2005, 12:20 AM // 00:20

The whole idea of an air ele, is the ability to do extreme amounts of damage to a single enemy. A water ele [from my limited experiance with water] exists to slow enemies and has some defensive capabilities, almost like a crowd controller but in the opposite way as stated by jczech. Earth protects you and your team, and fire deals damage to all enemies in an area to make it difficult for the monk to handle the healing on all the chars under attack, be this npc or player controlled. this is no longer the case in PvE, fire has become useless....

there is no point in using fire DoT AoE therefore nuking is almost out of the question, because of the reasons stated in the above posts. I have never classed the "hurts enemy and all adjacent enemies" spells as nuking as they rarely hit more than 2 characters. therefore, players are left with spells like flare, fireball, meteor, and the like, which are far inferior to the air equivelants with armour peircing.

for example take lightening orb and fireball, although lightening orb cost 5 more energy, with the [insert element] attunements this ends up being a difference of about 3 energy which in a PvE environment makes little difference. orb also recharges quicker. now orb does 82 damage at 12 air magic and firball does 91 at 12 fire, a difference of 9 damage. now if we add on the 25% AP we can cclearly see the superiority of air magic, even if the target is wearing +defense vs air magic armour.

comments and criticisms welcome

Drake1132 · Nov 13, 2005, 12:28 AM // 00:28

To Mentalmdc:

The major difference between Lightning Orb and Fireball is the fact that Fireball is AoE... even if you only hit 2 creatures with it the total damage done is double and therefore Fireball automatically becomes more efficent than Lightning Orb in terms of both the amount of damage done over a period of say 10 seconds, but also in terms of ammount of damage done per energy point. Instant damage AoE's like Fireball and Phoenix are still very powerful, very efficient, and very useful, and isn't a concern to me.

Drake

leguma · Nov 13, 2005, 08:05 AM // 08:05

The problem is that while mobs are now smart, they are still very, very retarded. Has anyone seen how attaxes scatter and run like roaches from 1 damage zealot fire? I have. THAT is the problem. Make the mobs brave again... not suicidal, but brave. It's that simple. YES have them run away if the AoE does more than 1/20 of their max life per hit but otherwise let them ignore it.
Please, A.net if you read this look and see how Attaxes run away from 1 damage zealot's fire, and then fix it.