Curse

Mysterial · Nov 30, 2005, 12:10 AM // 00:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

I would hope that "casual" players play the game because they find it fun....not just to feel more "powerful"

They find it fun because they get more powerful. That's the point of an action RPG.

Quote:

I figure player skills and putting together a build should do it.

If that were true, the game wouldn't be balanced. Because the game is supposed to be balanced, then by definition no new items, skills, etc. added by the expansion can be more powerful. Therefore, I fear many people will see them as meaningless. Changing the level cap may not necessarily be the best answer, but I use it as the example because it's the most obviously visual. They could do a similar effect by, for example, raising the damage on everything by a few points, and adding armor with a couple more points of protection. Balance wise, everything could be identical or nearly so, but it adds the feeling of progression and gaining power that I think most casual players will expect a new expansion to contain.

Additionally, if you want to see exactly how much most people like putting together new builds, go see one of the ten thousand "OMG they nerfed [insert skill or item], I'm leaving!" threads.

MSecorsky · Nov 30, 2005, 12:10 AM // 00:10

C'mon, folks. The whole level cap argument is moot. It's not going to change. To do so has far too great a potential to ruin things simply due to the fact that the games balance is tied to the cap of 20. For the life of me, I fail to see why people can't just accept this fact for what it is.

I still think the best idea yet regarding the level cap is when you get to twenty to replace the level lable with a title, such as "Druid" for rangers, "Knight" for warriors, etc. Take away the visual eye-candy for the level hungry and they'll soon enough be weaned.

Hell Marauder · Nov 30, 2005, 12:10 AM // 00:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

.........
All too many people want this to be like every other mmorpg out there a "materialistic, long tedious level grinding, phat loot pwnage" type of game. Guess what? It ain't ever gonna be that, so, if that's what you are expecting, you might as well leave now and not even buy the expansion. Ain't NEVAH gonna happen with GUILD WARS cause it's about SKILL & INTELLIGENCE, not materialistic things, long tedious level grinding and phat loot". AMEN!

You're absolutely right about GW, Red Sonya. But SKILL & INTELLIGENCE IS exactly about ELITISM. Not everyone has high skill or intelligence or belong to an uber guild, but everyone has exactly SAME chance for making money and getting that uber weapon/armors in other online games. So if GW is only catering to people with most skill and intelligence, then there's no way for average online player to win consistently. More and more I see GW as a socialist system with all skills handed out to everyone but some more useful than others, and it's player's team/association that counts the most, and other online rpg as capitalist system which rewards people with most time (for grinding) and money/uber items. So which is better? Socialism or capitalism? Hmm I dunno.

Sir Skullcrasher · Nov 30, 2005, 12:12 AM // 00:12

so who think A-Net will change the focus for Chapter 2 or will it still be PvE and PvP being in one game?

Hiryu · Nov 30, 2005, 12:14 AM // 00:14

I'm hoping they make this game better for the casual gamer. Right now, casual gamers can't even hope to fully experience huge chunks of the game such as Tombs or Guild Battles (that's a good 2/3 of the PvP content!).

It takes forever to get a Tombs group set up with Pick-up-groups, and it can take a hell of a lot of time and effort to find a highly active PvP guild and set up a team to go into Tombs. This problem is even worse for new unranked players.

The same idea applies with Guild Battles. For a game that's so focused on guilds, there aren't even many guild features to speak of. There isn't even an in-game system to help a player get acquainted with a guild if they so desire. Everything has to be done on the internet, and casual players will probably not want to go through all that searching and even guild politics for the sake of a game. The game can feel more like work, (tedious, frustrating work) than play if you want to experience all the aspects of the game. For a game that has been advertised to be focused on PvP and cater to casual gamers, this is just absurd.

For the casual gamer, all there really is to the game is the dry PvE campaign, the PvE quests, and the Competition Arenas. So much for the "time spent having fun, rather than time spent preparing to have fun" philosophy.

MSecorsky · Nov 30, 2005, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Marauder

You're absolutely right about GW, Red Sonya. But SKILL & INTELLIGENCE IS exactly about ELITISM. Not everyone has same skill or intelligence or belong to an uber guild, but everyone has exactly SAME chance for making money and getting that uber weapon/armors in other online games. So if GW is only catering to people with most skill and intelligence, then there's no way for average online player to win consistently. More and more I see GW as a socialist system with skills handed out to everyone but it's player's team/association that counts, and other online rpg as capitalist system which rewards people with most time (for grinding) and money/uber items. So which is better? Socialism or capitalism in pvp?

You're talking about a pure PvP world... none of this applies to PvE.

That being said... probably the majority of PvPers aren't the diehards that care about making it to HoH and winning. I'm a casual PvPer myself, mostly CA, sometimes will venture into the Halls for gits and shiggles. I'm currently not even in a guild, and care little. Will I ever have a stockpile of sigils? Heck no. Don't rightly care either. The game's fun enough in and of itself.

Hey, I have seven ectos. For me, that's giddy level.

You know... when they introduce guild storage, I might become a guild of one. Talk about a private mansion.

Sir Skullcrasher · Nov 30, 2005, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hiryu

I'm hoping they make this game better for the casual gamer. Right now, casual gamers can't even hope to fully experience huge chunks of the game such as Tombs or Guild Battles (that's a good 2/3 of the PvP content!).

It takes forever to get a Tombs group set up with Pick-up-groups, and it can take a hell of a lot of time and effort to find a highly active PvP guild and set up a team to go into Tombs. This problem is even worse for new unranked players.

The same idea applies with Guild Battles. For a game that's so focused on guilds, there aren't even many guild features to speak of. There isn't even an in-game system to help a player get acquainted with a guild if they so desire. Everything has to be done on the internet, and casual players will probably not want to go through all that searching and even guild politics for the sake of a game. The game can feel more like work, (tedious, frustrating work) than play if you want to experience all the aspects of the game. For a game that has been advertised to be focused on PvP and cater to casual gamers, this is just absurd.

For the casual gamer, all there really is to the game is the dry PvE campaign, the PvE quests, and the Competition Arenas. So much for the "time spent having fun, rather than time spent preparing to have fun" philosophy.

Agree, i can't even get into tomb without being asked are you a IWAY tank or a rank 3? It funny how these strategy is being used as a invite for party. Why can't A-Net make it more simple. I can probably go to HoH with my guild but most of the time no one is on. There isn't a way to get into HoH unless you know the strategy that is needed or have rank 3 or higher.

Hell Marauder · Nov 30, 2005, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by sir skulkcrasher

Agree, i can't even get into tomb without being asked are you a IWAY tank or a rank 3? It funny how these strategy is being used as a invite for party. Why can't A-Net make it more simple. I can probably go to HoH with my guild but most of the time no one is on. There isn't a way to get into HoH unless you know the strategy that is needed or have rank 3 or higher.

And to me, farming for rank/fame is almost same as farming for elite weapon/armors in other games, because it gives you a chance to play with experienced players and hence bigger chance for winning pvp.

Zaklex · Nov 30, 2005, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

The point that's being made is that even though there will be new classes, skills, and equipment, casual players will feel that they have no meaning since they won't actually get any more powerful, and therefore won't buy the expansion.

What's to say that A.net can't add items, weapons, armors and mods for ALL classes that do increase the feeling of being more powerful without screwing up the game balance. Remember, there will be certain areas were people that only own chapter 1 or chapter 2 can intermingle with those that own both chapters.

Akathrielah · Nov 30, 2005, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Marauder

You're absolutely right about GW, Red Sonya. But SKILL & INTELLIGENCE IS exactly about ELITISM. Not everyone has high skill or intelligence or belong to an uber guild, but everyone has exactly SAME chance for making money and getting that uber weapon/armors in other online games. So if GW is only catering to people with most skill and intelligence, then there's no way for average online player to win consistently. More and more I see GW as a socialist system with all skills handed out to everyone but some more useful than others, and it's player's team/association that counts the most, and other online rpg as capitalist system which rewards people with most time (for grinding) and money/uber items. So which is better? Socialism or capitalism? Hmm I dunno.

Your kidding me right? Everyone technically has the same chance of getting high level gear and loot in PvE MMORPGs like EQ, and elitism is quite rampant there as well. Except in EQ its "how much of your life can you burn away at this game", instead of "how well can you play".

If you want to win, you will have to devote time to this game of course (like everything else practice makes perfect), but it is more a matter of being able to work well in a team, as well as being able to think and act clearly.

In other words you no longer can act like a spoiled retarded 5 year old and be at the end game with raid loot, if some people cannot comprehend this, they should go play another game.

As for the people screaming on how Anet "must" raise the level cap or the game will die because of a lack of progression, I do not know what to say to them- too many people have gotten into their heads that in order for a game to be fun, there must be an excrutiatingly stupid amount of grind in the game. And developers happily use this to mask any inadequacies they cannot solve in the game, and at the same time forcing people to spend more time playing so they can get to the part of the game they can enjoy while having to spend more money on monthly fees.

People need to learn that interesting and dynamic quests, a solid character progression system, and deep, well-thought out gameplay mechanics makes a great game, not mashing the same buttons and using the same tactics for hours and hours on end ad naeseum ad infinitum.

Mysterial · Nov 30, 2005, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaklex

What's to say that A.net can't add items, weapons, armors and mods for ALL classes that do increase the feeling of being more powerful without screwing up the game balance. Remember, there will be certain areas were people that only own chapter 1 or chapter 2 can intermingle with those that own both chapters.

Perhaps so, although I'm worried by the fact that Arenanet is adding multiple new professions, implying that not so much will be added to the existing ones, which would then make what you're saying extremely difficult if not impossible. It's hard to say since they're so closemouthed about what's going to be in there (they're the same way with updates and it's rather frustrating). But I guess we'll find out in a few months.

Vorlin · Nov 30, 2005, 01:30 AM // 01:30

If Chapter 2 added anything in the way of skills or gear that was more powerful than found in Chapter 1 then people who had Chapter 2 would have an advantage over people who didn't and ANet has specifically stated that this won't happen. So this breaks down to: Chapter 2 has no meaningful content, it's just for fun. For many this won't be a problem, but for many others it most definitely will be.

***********

I'm not arguing for an increase in the level cap, I'm simply pointing out (as have others) that with the current cap it's very difficult if not impossible to create meaningful expansion packs for GWars. Items can't be better, skills can't be better, and monster can only be a tiny bit harder (if that, the hardest areas of Chapter 1 are pretty daunting already).

I think what the GWars team should have done was to make each Chapter self-contained, with its own cap and item/skill set. For instance, Chapter 1 would be like it is now, cap at 20 and the current item/skill set. Chapter 2 would be only available to Ascended level 20 characters (and once entered they could never go back to Chapter 1), it would have a cap at 40 and a whole new set of skills, items, and creatures. Chapter 3 would require some equivalent to Ascension in Chapter 2 plus being level 40, it would cap at 60, etc., etc. PvP would be limited by Chapter as well.

This way noone is forced to by a Chapter, and noone in a lower chapter is competing with any gear/skill/character from a higher one. A person can buy as many chapters as they want, or stop buying at any time, and their characters will always be in-sync with the players around them and will always be competitive. A person could have characters parked in various chapters, so if they wanted to do something in Chapter 1 they simply load up a Chapter 1 character they have, then later in the day go back to playing a Chapter 4 character if that is what they want to do.

This would give everyone the best of all worlds, and give ANet a franchise that could bring in money indefinitely. But it's probably too late for them to consider going this route, even if they found it appealing.

Loviatar · Nov 30, 2005, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

The point that's being made is that even though there will be new classes, skills, and equipment, casual players will feel that they have no meaning since they won't actually get any more powerful, and therefore won't buy the expansion.

SINCE THEY WONT ACTUALLY GET MORE POWERFUL?

TELL ME HOW LEVEL 40 IS MORE POWERFUL THAN LEVEL 20

i am level 1 and have a level 1 fireball that kills the level 2 monsters in 2-3 hits.

i am level 5 and have a level 5 fireball that kills the level 7 monsters in 2-3 hits.

i am level 10 and have a level 10 fireball that kills the level 12 monsters in 2-3 hits.

i am level 20 and have a level 20 fireball that kills the level 22 monsters in 2-3 hits.

i am level 40 and have a level 40 fireball that kills the level 42 monsters in 2-3 hits.

LOOK AT MY GREAT PROGRESS

where is the increase in challenge?

where is anything changing except the number?

we need a godly unbalanced profession that can pawn all the others so people can be guaranteed they are a WINNER

WHICH CLASS IS IT IN WOW THAT WILL AUTOMATICALL WIN EVERY TIME?

thats what we need not any balance and then we will all be that class or be losers

great game

Eet GnomeSmasher · Nov 30, 2005, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

They find it fun because they get more powerful. That's the point of an action RPG.

If that were true, the game wouldn't be balanced. Because the game is supposed to be balanced, then by definition no new items, skills, etc. added by the expansion can be more powerful. Therefore, I fear many people will see them as meaningless. Changing the level cap may not necessarily be the best answer, but I use it as the example because it's the most obviously visual. They could do a similar effect by, for example, raising the damage on everything by a few points, and adding armor with a couple more points of protection. Balance wise, everything could be identical or nearly so, but it adds the feeling of progression and gaining power that I think most casual players will expect a new expansion to contain.

Additionally, if you want to see exactly how much most people like putting together new builds, go see one of the ten thousand "OMG they nerfed [insert skill or item], I'm leaving!" threads.

So you're saying that the game can't be fun if it's balanced? Ummm...

And what I meant was that you can still get a sense of "power" by actually using your player skill and getting good at the builds you're playing. Thinking up powerful builds (without it being unbalancing) does a lot more than just raising the number next to your level.

Some people actually get a sense of accomplishment by using their brains and skill rather than grinding for an artificially high number in their level stat.

Mysterial · Nov 30, 2005, 02:09 AM // 02:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

SINCE THEY WONT ACTUALLY GET MORE POWERFUL?

TELL ME HOW LEVEL 40 IS MORE POWERFUL THAN LEVEL 20

i am level 1 and have a level 1 fireball that kills the level 2 monsters in 2-3 hits.

i am level 5 and have a level 5 fireball that kills the level 7 monsters in 2-3 hits.

i am level 10 and have a level 10 fireball that kills the level 12 monsters in 2-3 hits.

i am level 20 and have a level 20 fireball that kills the level 22 monsters in 2-3 hits.

i am level 40 and have a level 40 fireball that kills the level 42 monsters in 2-3 hits.

LOOK AT MY GREAT PROGRESS

where is the increase in challenge?

where is anything changing except the number?

Bingo! You've caught on to the appeal of most RPGs. That is, the numbers get bigger. People feel like they're stronger and more powerful. That's what it's all about.

And yet, it's almost entirely illusion.

The fact that in reality, the increased levels are not really meaningful is irrelevant. What is relevant is that the players perceive it to be. And so we get to this thread. The worry is that the game won't create that illusion, so many people will not buy it. Therefore, it's proposed that in some way (through increased level cap or some other method) that people appear to become more powerful. It doesn't actually have to mean anything. For example, they could just change the calculations to be base 70 for armor, change the max level armors proportionally, and create new max level armor crafters for everyone in both chapters. Suddenly there's something new you need to get, something more to do, more progression, and yet once you have it you're back where you started. But few will notice that part. Most will just notice the bigger numbers on their equipment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

Some people actually get a sense of accomplishment by using their brains and skill rather than grinding for an artificially high number in their level stat.

Yes, they do. But are they the majority? Probably not. That's what this thread is about. It isn't about what people like you and me want, it's about what the average gamers want, who if the game appeals to them enough may one day see the light and become like you and me. Which means more people playing competitively, which is good for all of us.

Eet GnomeSmasher · Nov 30, 2005, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

Gee, I guess you can't stop trolling. You're again attacking the "worth" of my opinion - not my opinion itself.

Ignored.

Uh huh. First you kept saying that I made personal attacks and I called you on it. You have yet to point out any personal attacks that I made on you. I'm still waiting...

And here again you accuse me of being a troll with some nitpicky crap about "worth" of opinions. And you still have yet to answer any of my questions... Why don't you just report me if I'm really such a troll instead of posting over and over about it?

Eet GnomeSmasher · Nov 30, 2005, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

Bingo! You've caught on to the appeal of most RPGs. That is, the numbers get bigger. People feel like they're stronger and more powerful. That's what it's all about.

And yet, it's almost entirely illusion.

The fact that in reality, the increased levels are not really meaningful is irrelevant. What is relevant is that the players perceive it to be. And so we get to this thread. The worry is that the game won't create that illusion, so many people will not buy it. Therefore, it's proposed that in some way (through increased level cap or some other method) that people appear to become more powerful. It doesn't actually have to mean anything. For example, they could just change the calculations to be base 70 for armor, change the max level armors proportionally, and create new max level armor crafters for everyone in both chapters. Suddenly there's something new you need to get, something more to do, more progression, and yet once you have it you're back where you started. But few will notice that part. Most will just notice the bigger numbers on their equipment.

But that's pointless. It's just adding more grind and wasnt the whole point of GW was to eliminate most of the grind? That's the point some of us are trying to make. Some people are trying to make this game into something that it's not.

Are you saying that we should cater to those who want GW to be like every other MMO out there? If the vast majority of people like WoW then something innovative such as GW shouldnt exist?

Loviatar · Nov 30, 2005, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorlin

So this breaks down to: Chapter 2 has no meaningful content, it's just for fun. For many this won't be a problem, but for many others it most definitely will be.

.

OH MY GOD CHAPTER 2 IS ONLY ABOUT HAVING FUN.

NO MEANINGFUL CONTENT JUST FUN.........OH THE HUMANITY..

AND FUN WILL BE A PROBLEM FOR SOME PEOPLE.......WHAT ARE WE COMING TO ?

twicky_kid · Nov 30, 2005, 02:28 AM // 02:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

Yes, they do. But are they the majority? Probably not. That's what this thread is about. It isn't about what people like you and me want, it's about what the average gamers want, who if the game appeals to them enough may one day see the light and become like you and me. Which means more people playing competitively, which is good for all of us.

i don't think anet goes the way of the majority most of the time. take a look at my old thread about the ranger spikes after the secret update. i warned that ranger spike was coming due to the update and how it could be done and it would overwhelmingly powerful. mojority that posted there did nothing but complained and wanted to keep it the way it was.

we all know that didn't happen. ranger spike does exist and is very good but not completely out of control like it could have been.

people love to farm and farm all day. pve content is done by most and they farm all day. what did anet do? upped the AI so it takes you longer to kill them soloing. put a big dent into farming which the majority does do.

i believe anet knows what they want for this game and what direction they want it to go in. players make detours for them and eventually need to find the road again even if players don't like it.

i admire that about the devs. the know what they want this game to be and will not flench in the face of people that probly should have never bought it in the first place.

i don't think this game is ment to be played as much as it is. i think its ment to be limited and played on occasion. from a buisness stand point i would have gone this direction. sure would cost them less so they can spend more on development.

Mysterial · Nov 30, 2005, 02:31 AM // 02:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

Are you saying that we should cater to those who want GW to be like every other MMO out there? If the vast majority of people like WoW then something innovative such as GW shouldnt exist?

As long as it doesn't interfere with the innovative parts, then yes, absolutely. You want the game to have as large an audience as possible. You want to attract some of the other MMO players with something similar to what they're used to so that they will play it and then discover, and hopefully enjoy more, the innovative parts, which is where it's really at. (Or at least they bought the game, which is more money to make more expansions that improve everything else as well.) If this were not true, Guild Wars probably wouldn't have PvE in the first place and this community would be a whole lot smaller.