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Aug 03, 2005, 07:04 PM // 19:04
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#1 | |
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Ministry of Technology
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Washington D.C.
Guild: Idiot Savants
Profession: Mo/
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A Consolidation of Community Suggestions to Improve GW -- Both PvP and PvE
Why have this thread?
As many of you know the last few days have been full of Anet flaming, disgust and hate. At least from a PvP players prospective I think most of this anger and angst is a result of many of the PvP oriented alpha testers leaving or being kicked out of the alpha (depending on who you ask). In addition, I feel that both the PvE and PvP community has become slightly frustrated with the lack of information flowing from Anet regarding our most pressing community concerns. Although Gaile and Alex post regularly across many of the fan-site forums their posts tend not to address the actual concerns people have. Perhaps it is too much to ask Anet to provide their opinions on certain large community issues but at the very least I would like to ensure that there is an easy place for Anet to become aware of what the community, both PvP and PvE is concerned about. In that spirit I would like this thread to become a warehouse of the best ideas put out by the community in addition to the perceived pros and cons of each suggestion. I will be constantly and tirelessly updating this first post with new issues, concerns and opinions. Although I am without a doubt a PvP only player I will do my utmost best to ensure that this thread represents the opinions of the entire GW community, not just PvPers. If you feel that I’m not being sufficiently unbiased please call me out on it through a PM. A Word of Warning: This thread will be heavily moderated. Posts which do not contribute in anyway to the discussion at hand will be deleted without notice. I’d like to point out a few topics which we will NOT be covering in this thread.
As I mentioned before I will be constantly updating this first page with new issues provided by the community. These are not just my ideas. I’ve simply cut and paste, consolidated and summarized. I will do my best to give credit to others where I can. How to Respond/Help As you will notice many of the sections are lacking good arguments both for and against. If you feel particularly strong about an issue, are a good writer, and can get your points across in a coherent and concise manner please free to post on a topic in favor or against given topics. Feel free to PM with an argument as well. Please note that not everyone’s argument will get a link so please don’t be upset if that happens. In addition, if you know of a post by Anet that provides some insight into their thoughts on the issues covered below please provide that link so I can update the "Anet's Thoughts" portions. Finally, everywhere you see “[Learn More]” is a place where I would like to link to a more in depth review of the suggestion or issue at hand. Please PM me your “[Learn More]” contributions or just post them in this thread. I will update the links as necessary. Sec I. Skill Balancing Issues (Last Updated: Aug 4, 2005) The following skills have serious balance issues. I think the PvP community in general agrees that these skills need to be balanced and this should definitely be a priority for Anet. To start, a quote by Zrave on general skill balancing: Quote:
Unbalanced PvP Skills
Sec III. General Skill/Item Unlocking Issues (Last Updated: Aug 4, 2005)
Sec IV. Guild Issues (Last Updated: Aug 4, 2005)
Sec V. Smurf Guilds (Last Updated: Aug 4, 2005)
Sec VI. General PvE Issues (Last Updated: Aug 4, 2005)
Sec VII. General PvP Issues (Last Updated: Aug 3, 2005)
Sec VIII. General Issues (Last Updated: Aug 11, 2005)
Sec VIIII. Notable Posts (Last Updated: Aug 11, 2005) New!
Sec X. Almost a Bug (Last Updated: Aug 11, 2005) New!
Important: A few people have already replied with something along the lines of "I disagree/agree .... " followed by a few lines of incomprehensible garble. Please remember that this post addresses a plethora of issues and you need to be very specific if you're going to address any of them. Finally, we will be deleting incomprehensible garble from this thread in an effort to keep it on track so if you're going to post please take the time to make them meaningful and understandable. Posts of encouragement are appreciated but will probably be removed since they don't add anything to the discussion. PM's would be more appropriate for things like that. If you think your post is getting unfairly deleted PM me and I'll look into it for you. Thanks again!
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M.D.K. GuildWars Guild Last edited by Sarus; Aug 11, 2005 at 10:16 PM // 22:16.. |
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Aug 03, 2005, 07:06 PM // 19:06
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#2 |
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Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: So Cal
Guild: The Sinister Vanguard
Profession: Me/
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Please allow me to touch on the UAS one time... having that feature available in a guild training area would allow for people to train with all skills available but would still require people go out and unlock the skills for real combat. This covers a couple pre-hashed things... the guild training area and the means to train newer folks (like me) with good, complete builds as well as encourages performing the actions required to unlock specific skills necessary for the desired build once perfected.
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Aug 03, 2005, 07:30 PM // 19:30
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#3 |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Apr 2005
Guild: Wrath of Nature [Fury]
Profession: Me/Mo
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Faction System Issues:
The prices are too high for the casual gamers to unlock a sufficient amount of skills through the Arena/Tombs to enter into GvG with a planned team build. Solution: Faction prices should start very low and climb the more of a particular type that you unlock. (Keep a separate counter for elites, skills, upgrades, runes.) This should be balance in a way so that the total price for unlocking everything through faction would be halved. Example: Start with Elite Skill price of 300 and add 30 for every new elite unlocked. Estimate: This will allow those with the least faction and elites unlocked the most access to unlocking them - thus creating better competition. As result, more guilds will be ready for GvG and the waiting time for a match will be significantly reduced, increasing the faction gain throughout the ladder. ____________________________________________ Sec VII. General PvP Issues: The Hall of Heroes map in ToPK Tournament promotes defensive gameplay, and/or double-teaming. It should instead promote offensive gameplay, or a diverse one. Solution 1: Make the HoH an 8v8 only map that promotes a confrontation (close quarters, no defensive bonuses). Shorten the round to 15 minutes with victory condition being total elimination or most kills at the end of the round. Optional 5 minute breaks in between rounds. Solution 2: Make the HoH 8v8 only and rotate different map types. King of the Hill, Team Deathmatch, CTF, etc. Make all maps limited and balanced for 15 minute matches. Estimate: This will promote offensive or balanced teams over the current trend to develop a total defence. The second solution is preferred because it prevents over-focusing of builds. Changing the HoH into a short-fight 8v8 map will revitilize the entire tournament and promote competative gaming. __________________________________________ Here are the original posts and community response/debate of these suggestions: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=40813 http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24033 __________________________________________ I apploud your efforts for a constructive discussion and wish it is maintained in this fashion and noticed by the game's developers. Last edited by varyag; Aug 03, 2005 at 07:53 PM // 19:53.. |
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Aug 03, 2005, 07:35 PM // 19:35
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#4 |
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Academy Page
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Central Massachusetts
Guild: Legion of Gweep
Profession: Mo/Me
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I find the idea of "unbalanced PvE Skill" to be... interesting. Protective Bonds is very powerful, but at a huge cost. In order to truly use it for conquest requires that you use another 4 slots (at least) to deal with its consequences, and even then you need to truly work things in an odd manner (12 Protection Paryers, a hat, and a +1 icon) to even get the bennifits, and it severly limits your damage potential.
However, who does it hurt? It's a joke in PvP, and in PvE the mobs are there to die, so I'm not sure that it's in any way un-balanced. As for the other suggestion, I'd like to say that the Training area, via Guild Hall would be a truly useful addition. The basic premmis that people can try builds, and then go cap the skills they need, rather than having to grab everything to be competative could be the thing that keeps the PvP only people from giving up on the game entirely. Plus it will breed a new level of better player since people can practice without the randomness of Tombs or the Arenas. I'm not seeing any downside except the time taken to implement it. |
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Aug 03, 2005, 07:41 PM // 19:41
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#5 |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Jun 2005
Guild: Animal Factory [ZoO]
Profession: A/
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I would really like to see a faction system that did (for team and random areanas):
First 5 matches: 2+ faction per first kill, 10 per win, 2+ for flawless, 20 for 5th win Matches 5-10: 3+ faction per first kill, 12 per win, 4+ for flawless, 30 for 10th win Matches 10-15: 4+ faction per first kill, 14 per win, 6+ for flawless, 40 for 15th win. And so on according to this pattern. Perhaps this isn't enough, but I think of it as a long step from the current system. Last edited by Sagius Truthbarron; Aug 03, 2005 at 07:44 PM // 19:44.. |
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Aug 03, 2005, 07:50 PM // 19:50
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#6 |
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Academy Page
Join Date: Apr 2005
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I still believe there is future for the WaW system. Dont get rid of it. But change the real life reference and balance the factions.
ingame fractions -> could be balanced because they have no reference to the amount of people playing in the real life fractions. -> no more racism or nationalism -> balance could be done by adding quest wich take some time like the one from the scripe in ascalon. So noone could just change for quick favour but could change the fraction every time he wants (not only five times) As i mentioned here : http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...299#post141299 there should be more information about hexes and enchantments. Last edited by Mayar third Keeper; Aug 03, 2005 at 07:58 PM // 19:58.. |
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Aug 03, 2005, 07:51 PM // 19:51
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#7 |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: May 2005
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Very good points and I agree with many of your views.
My only complaint addition would be to the PvE side. I think the shortage of monks is a huge problem, especially for people wanting to go to the Underworld/Fissure. My solution would be in two parts, the first would be to allow hench in the underworld/fissure. I'm not sure why they didn't Hench just like they are would do alright in my humble opinion. The second would be to have options with the hench. For instance Lina is a protection monk. She brings some great skills that I like but she doesn't even touch on many I think are important. I think that hench should have a window much like the merchants where the group leader could set the skills the henchmen would take. I understand that it would be a difficult programming challenge but I've seen a number of people log off in disgust after sitting for half an hour waiting for a real monk. They've already tested an 8 skill set with all the hench so they have experience with the programming. Please don't say that you can do all the missions with henchmen, believe me I know it because I've done them all with hench. Many can do it but not all, and you can't take them to UW/FoW. It is a problem, if you don't believe me go to any mission area after Sanctum Cay and listen to the pleading going on for monks. I'm not sure if we're allowed to post dissenting points on this thread but I'm against changing Tombs to 8v8. I want more complexity, not less. If we want to fight the problem of unfair teaming we should shut off the global chat in Tombs. I for one am dead set against the simplicity of a 1v1. If this isn't allowed I'll be glad to edit it out, I meant no argument, just my opinion on that. Edit: I know an A-Net Rep has said that they're looking into having some kind of guild practice arena. I think that will become a reality in some form. I don't know about a UAS practice arena however, I've never seen that mentioned. I'll search for the thread and see if I can find it. Last edited by asdar; Aug 03, 2005 at 07:54 PM // 19:54.. |
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Aug 03, 2005, 07:53 PM // 19:53
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#8 |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: May 2005
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The only real issues I have is the moronic NPC (not henchman) AI that do incredible stupid things, (such as "Oh no, the Dwarves are attacking ... lets rush and try to kill then with bare fists"), the spawn and patrol points of mobs that put then right into a NPC path that gets killed before we have the chance to talk to then and also how enemies are aggro by such NPCs (like being aggro by a ghost).
Well and henchman and NPC levels that put then in danger of being killed (such as devona and company in the desert, they are simply too low level to go facing pairs of lv20 hydras). |
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Aug 03, 2005, 07:55 PM // 19:55
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#9 | |
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Elite Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Guild: Idiot Savants [iQ]
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I'm deleting posts that are not clear enough, based on my judgement. If you have a suggestion to make, make it as clear as possible, otherwise it will be deleted.
If you are not a native English speaker, or you have difficulty expressing your ideas clearly but have something important to add, please PM me or Sarus and we will gladly work out the idea with you.
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Quote:
Last edited by Scaphism; Aug 03, 2005 at 08:00 PM // 20:00.. |
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Aug 03, 2005, 08:01 PM // 20:01
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#10 |
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Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: So Cal
Guild: The Sinister Vanguard
Profession: Me/
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Well, let's give a second suggestion a go and see if it sticks to the forum...
Guild Halls need stuff. Being a little more specific, everyone says that GHs need a communal storage and can agree on this. So, do so, but at a cost in Plats and supplies. Hypothetical numbers... for 50 slots of storage, 100K gold, 25K wood planks, 25K granite slabs. Another 50? 125K gold, 35K wood, 35K granite, 10K iron ingots. Dyes too, for painting. Allow a few times, maybe for the 5th and last storage include ectos or something. Make it costly. Other guild hall additions can be dreamt up as well at their own costs. Say, their own Statue of Baathalzar? You now have massive gold/material sinks that will be used, GHs are more fun, and guilds have common goals to work towards. |
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Aug 03, 2005, 08:05 PM // 20:05
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#11 |
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: May 2005
Guild: Work in Progress [WIP]
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On Nature's Renewal - This really needs balancing, heck, I use a spirit build in GvG and it's pretty obviously overpowered, and difficult to counter. Removing enchantments and hexes and making enchantments and hexes take longer to cast is something that most classes have no less than 2 skills to accomplish, and they generally don't have a 2-minute long effect either. This skill really needs a serious overhaul, I don't think a few tweaks would fix it. My suggestions for balancing it, with keeping the same overall effect, are - (1) shorten the lifetime of the spirit. Maybe something along the lines of 60 second (max) lifetime and a 60 second recycle time, then it would be more difficult to make a large buildup of these spirits in particular, and as such, they would be easier to target and kill. (2) It shouldn't remove hexes, this can make necromancers and mesmers quite useless in the fight, much more than is necessary. I can't really see a way of balancing that function without removing it all together. (3) Without that, it would still make enchantments and hexes take longer to cast, and it would still remain a potent spirit against casters, but without shutting them down all together.
On spirit spamming in general - (1)Fertile season shouldn't effect other spirits, plain and simple. (2)Spirits should be labeled as a neutral target or something, so they can be attacked, but can't be healed. Unfortunately, Heal Area would likely still effect them, so programming them to recieve no healing might be in order. (3)Oath Shot, Quickening Zephyr, and Serpent's Quickness I would also suggest have their effects removed from Nature Ritual type skills. (4)Though it might take some work, I would suggest implementing a feature into the game so that there can be no more than, say, 2-3 of any given spirit in an area. If a new spirit is recast, then the oldest spirit dies. And that's about all I have to say about that 
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Aug 03, 2005, 08:49 PM // 20:49
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#12 |
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Academy Page
Join Date: Jun 2005
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In regards to PvE, there are a few things that I personally think needs touching on:
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Aug 03, 2005, 08:50 PM // 20:50
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#13 |
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: May 2005
Profession: Me/N
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PvE/Interface suggestions
1. Hench + Pet commands. The basic "all follow" , "all stay" , "all attack" would be sufficient [same set for pet]. 2. Random Quest Generators , Morrowind Style to serve as an alternative to gain items+rewards. [Basically, various NPC Questmasters which rolls quests for the entire GW map, you pay per quest, you select difficulty, type etc etc] 3. Improve the Party-creation interface. Should have an interface listing all players in specified Outpost with their classes and their status [available for group or not]. From there direct ability to add/join a team. Opposite should also apply, ability to see all teams with their members [classes etc] and ability to join it from the interface [team can also have a status of open/closed etc]. Various filters/group by would be good too [i.e. filtering on Monks available for group only etc]. >> Similar interface for chatting/finding friends as well. I.e. I wouldn't mind at least seeing what classes my Guild-mates are.... classic "/whois " command. |
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Aug 03, 2005, 08:52 PM // 20:52
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#14 | ||
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Mar 2005
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Quote:
Since we're speaking of a PvE environment, you can handpick the monsters you face, and this setup renders you immune to 90% of the encounters in Guild Wars, including those designed to be exceptionally challenging (UW, FoW), using just half the skills of one character (and the attribute investment into protection prayers can even be refunded after Protective Bond is put up, although most won't bother to do this - but armour switching is done frequently). Such a character can take the place of a team of four people having to work together to achieve the same result at much greater risk Quote:
Let's consider two monks who each want to gather ectoplasm. The first monk spends thirty minutes getting a good Underworld team going, then after two hours comes out with one glob of ectoplasm that fortunately was assigned to him. In those two and a half hours, the other monk made five quick trips into UW, carefully selecting optimal mobs to kill, which netted two ectoplasms. Let's say they both intended to sell the ectoplasm they found: the second monk can get the ectoplasm faster, so can accept a lower price for each find (given a constant demand), and the other is affected because the price for ectoplasm is lower than it would've been if they both used regular means of gathering ectoplasm. Now the first monk would be stupid -not- to use Protective Bond to achieve his goal, because he's stealing from his own pocket if he doesn't. It hollows out PvE, providing players a build which is so much more succesful than other builds that it does not make sense to experiment much beyond this; it encourages making a monk specifically for this sort of solo'ing. Another part of the problem is that monks also happen to have the abusively good Zealot's Fire/Divine Boon combo at their disposal, which leaves most other classes in the dust when it comes to farming potential. Through Protective Bond, hardcore farmers (who make monks specifically for this sort of solo'ing - check the superior rune prices compared to two weeks ago for a clear indication of the issue) get an even greater advantage over casual players, earning them money and items substantially faster, so basically the abusiveness of Protective Bond (and Zealot's Fire/Ether Renewal similarly, although those have ramifications for PvP as well) leads to casual players getting shafted. One skill being better than the other for solo'ing in certain places does this by nature, but Protective Bond abuse is such a broadly effective and brainless method that I feel the game would improve from toning the effectiveness of the damage reduction down. I've written a suggestion how to adjust Protective Bond without it affecting its general effectiveness over a month ago, and I hope ArenaNet will address the issues somehow before even more people give up trying to use teamwork to achieve PvE goals and simply use monks for solo'ing. |
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Aug 03, 2005, 08:56 PM // 20:56
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#15 |
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Banned
Join Date: May 2005
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1. Protective Bond: The skill itself isn't really that over powered, it is the combination of skills, runes, items, and other things that make it this way. If you stack every superior rune possible, and use a weapon that lowers your max health, any damage you take while prot bond is up is easily healed by mending and healing breeze (except degen more to follow). Coupled with essense bond, Balth's spirit, and a +1 20% prot offhand, it is possible to lower the skill's energy degen per hit to 1. With essence and balth's on you actually gain energy while taking damage, and the damage like said before is easily counterable. Since you are using every superior rune your damage output and healing capacity is also not nerfed. You can pretty much tank and kill any mob in the game that is not degen based or enchantment removal based with this skill combination. You can also use Bonetti's defense since you can wand targets and gain adrenaline. With these combos you can have unlimited energy, and tank anything in the game.
Possible Solutions: At the bare minimum, remove the ability to wand targets and gain adrenaline. This will prevent the majority of the solo farming in UW. That still leaves the problem of using skill combinations to abuse prot bond. The easiest counter is to just base prot bond on the hp total of the base of any character in the game before runes and any other health modifiers. The skill will still be useful in the way it was intended to be, and will prevent the current exploit situations. 2. Putrid explosion: There are actually 2 problems here. One, the fastest person who jams the button wins. This also does not take into account the macros and gamepad exploits that give even more of an edge to certain players. The other problem is that putrid severely limits a necros ability to use the majority of his other skills. Wells and minions are out of the question for fear of another team's necro using putrid. Possible Solution: Apply a cast timer on par with the other necro spells to allow more diversity. Putrid can now be interupted. Wells and minions become viable again because corpses aren't instantly taken up by putrid. Another possible solution is to make it an elite. I don't think this is a good one though, but it will severely make a necro decide what he is going to bring compared to a lot of other useful elites. 3. Ether renewal + Zealots fire combo AND infuse health: Unlimited energy and constant damage. I included infuse health into this combo also because ether renewal + some enchantments + infuse health = no penalty to the caster and obvious healing benefits to the team. Possible Solution: At the bare minimum, double the cast time on ether renewal. It can still be used as a possible way to get a caster out of mana trouble, but nothing that will allow him to poor huge amounts of damage or healing onto a target. Also, it might be a good idea to remove the healing component out of ether renewal altogether. This will solve the farming problems, and the infuse health problem. 4. Spirits: They are healable, spammable, and block other players. Spirits spammers have obvious advantages in maps with choke points. Spirits can be spammed to prevent a team at ever getting to their relic, or can even be used to the extreme of building a wall between a team's monks and damage dealers. Possible Solutions: Remove fertile season's +health modifier on spirits. Remove the capability to heal spirits altogether. Remove the ability to completely block off choke points using spirits (the stairs on a relic map for instance). Last edited by Kaylee Ann; Aug 03, 2005 at 09:03 PM // 21:03.. |
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Aug 03, 2005, 09:12 PM // 21:12
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#16 | |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: May 2005
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Quote:
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Aug 03, 2005, 09:24 PM // 21:24
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#17 |
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Jul 2005
Guild: mustache riders
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Unbalanced PvE Skills:
Protective Bond: At 17 protection, Protective Bond becomes abusive in farming. I could make the same argument for Cyclone Axe and Live Vicariously, or any of the pbAoE with mistform and mesmer echos, but i won't, because we arent looking at the root of the problem. UW currently drops very little. The main advantage to it in my opinion are quests. Gaining ecto and selling them for a lower market rate doesn't actually hurt anyone, since it allows more people to actually USE the ecto. Needing 15 to get a helm for a minor change in appearance means that ecto isn't game making or breaking: its cute, that's it. My question is, why are people being forced to farm? I know that when I farm, which is rarely enought, its because i'm waiting for people in my guild to get ready for our GvG or a run in tombs. People are being forced to farm for no reason: they like the high end looks, and are ready to invest hours in order to look cool. If anything, I'd blame botters for glut in gold and the lack of quality gold items. If PvE is so fragile that one skill is singlehandedly ruining the economy, then perhaps the economy itself should be looked at. Why don't you guarantee 2 gold drops per high end map for every person in the party? It would encourage killing mobs, and it would also promote group farming/hunting, since the rewards wouldn't be lessened due to having party members. I know that i can solo UW's smites, but i also know that with a skilled group, i can clear it out a LOT faster. If said group and solo party obtained roughly the same amount of high end items, it would be logical for me to party up. Prot bond isn't the problem here. It never has been. Its not abusive (when have you seen that ultimate prot bond build in pvp?). Nor is the 17 prot bond incredibly broken. Its a defensive skill, and a good one, but should we revamp the way PvE gives benefits, it won't be neccesary. |
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Aug 03, 2005, 09:25 PM // 21:25
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#18 |
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Elite Guru
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Just a Box in a Cage
Guild: Hurry Up The Cakes [Oven]
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For PvP:
Aquisition of resources for even playing field: -Add UAS button for PvP characters. (leave it as a button so PvEers can somehow get a small amount of accomplishment?) -Whenever a character, PvP, or RP enters a PvP area, all skills are unlocked temporarily. -Remove Refund Points. Everyone thinks they're annoying. -Either have a UAUnlocks button, or keep faction only for unlocking runes and upgrades. Without UAS, there is no true competition. With UAS, I could go to the tombs, pick up a PUG of randoms, and have a team build in seconds. We went to and won the Hall of Heroes this way several times, and had a blast. Without it, only organized guilds using TS will ever win. What are the chances that 8 random people will have all the propper skills for every imaginable team build? Zero. That's not fun. Quit making us do arbitrary tasks to compete. As for as I can tell, the only complaint about UAS is that it would disadvantage PvE characters. That is easily fixed by the common solution of UAS while in a PvP area. (It's been beaten to death. And we still haven't seen an actual response to why it's not in. So I'm going to beat it until I get one.) Fixing the PvP environment: -Remove most, if not all, of the NPC's from GvG combat. Battles should not be decided by who can camp by their Guild Lord, Arcanists, and Archers the longest. -Fix several of the tombs maps: All King of The Hill maps are obscenely unfair, including the Hall of Heroes. Burial Mounds is a gank fest. -Start balancing again. We all said Guild Wars was the most balanced game on the web back during beta... that was when you were still balancing it. You stopped half way. We shouldn't have to deal with cookie cutter builds of the month to compete. For PvE: The Economy: -I don't know what happened, to tell you the truth. Drops got nerfed, prices skyrocketted... er... fix it? -Auction House: Been asked for for ages. It's painful to enter Lions Arch, let alone try to buy and sell stuff. Content: -Finish up Sorrow's Furnace and Grenth's Footprints. -Create some sort of reward for playing longer. Whatever these rewards are, it really doesn't matter as long as they are kept out of competition. The monsters aren't going to cry imbalance. If you can find a 50 damage sword that looks like a light sabre, I don't care, just as long as I, or anyone else, never see it in a PvP area. -Make something that doesn't get old as fast. The second I explore an area thoroughly, I don't feel like going back into it. Make some sort of randomly generated instance that is different every time, with different monsters, different areas, different chests, and so on. Try an 'Art of Defense' style map where a team is positioned in the middle of an enemy assault, but it doesn't stop. It just gets harder and harder until you are defeated. You could even make a ladder for this sort of thing. -Remove Worlds At War. Whoever was responsible for this idea needs to get fired for short sightedness. What a great idea rewarding PvEers with PvP advantages. Fix it so we have 2 seperate, independant, and fun games, rather than 1 crappy unbalanced one.
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Last edited by Weezer_Blue; Aug 03, 2005 at 09:31 PM // 21:31.. |
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Aug 03, 2005, 09:26 PM // 21:26
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#19 |
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: May 2005
Profession: Me/N
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Regarding Protective Bond and PvE. The core of this problem is not with the spell , or even the combination of spells, it's the overall mechanism used to gain rewards/items.
Solution 1: Change the system not to be reliant on "solo farming" to get the best rewards. Simple as that. In fact make that, change/improve the system not to force ANY "farming" to gain rewards. Suggestion 1.1 : Create a system that do not reward for large amount of kills, but rather on task completions [i.e. quests]. This itself will force players to fight a wide array of mobs [and not just specific farming mobs], INCLUDING mobs using protective bond themselves in the same way Suggestion 1.2 : DnD Online already mentioned a system of "each member gets their own personal pull from a chest, not just a random member" . Instead of having random drops for a random party member, improve the system to give players their own share per chest/kill , making it more useful to be in a team than solo'ing in terms of SPEED of drops. Think WHY people are solo'ing and work backwards to what GW is about. Solution 2: Open the playing field for rewards/drops based on a combination of (a) Speed of killing (b) Hits taken/ Hits Prevented (c) Hits landed [melee/spells] (d) Damage taken / Damage inflicted (e) Number of attackers vs number of defenders Last edited by silvertemplar; Aug 03, 2005 at 09:35 PM // 21:35.. |
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Aug 03, 2005, 09:33 PM // 21:33
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#20 | |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Quote:
The PvP faction system was designed so players could unlock skills, upgrades, and runes equally as they could in PvE. Many players hate playing through PvE more than once, so to them unlocking through PvP is the fun way. The only problem is, when a player gets a certain amount of faction, he gets unlocks. The PvE player playing through the game doesn't get unlocks. he gets random runes and random modifiers. Let's say that it takes the same time to get 1000 faction as it does to find a blue armor. With that 1000 faction you are guarenteed to unlock a new minor; with a blue armor, are you guarenteed to unlock something new? What're the chances that you'll find a minor vigor for the 100th time? If a PvE player gets a rare bow, he might get 2 new modifiers. Or he might get 1 modifier, which is still good. Or, he can get a modifier he already has. Let's say it takes the same amount of time for a PvE player to find a gold staff as it does for a PvP player to get 2000 faction. The PvE player finds an Insightful (+1) Staff of Defense (+1). The PvP player redeems for an Insightful (+1) and Defense (+1). Now, let's say the same situation happens again. Same time for each, except one has an unIDed gold staff and the other has 2k faction. The PvP player can go straight to Insightful (+5) and Defense (+5), while the PvE character may get +1s again, or may get better mods, but they're imperfect at +3 or +4. I attribute this problem moreso to the actual game itself, and not any unlocking methods. Having mods with variables such as "+1-5," "+10-20%," etc. is just stupid for a game based on "skill over time played." Those variables do make a difference, however small, and just adds a problem that doesn't need to be there. So the faction system far outweighs the PvE upgrade/rune unlocking system. It's not even close; the way at which a person unlocks weapon and rune upgrades through PvE will take five times as much time as if he/she had unlocked through PvP. Now, in regards to skills, unless you're pulled in 500 Faction for each GvG win, it's better off to go through PvE, in the majority of cases. Yes, some elites are in far off places and it'd be easier to get 2k faction or whatever it is to unlock the elites. But for the most part, PvE has the better end in this section. In my opinion a much better end, which is another disparity. Many PvPers are still unhappy with the faction system, and it's got to do with the prices to unlock skills. And I agree with them; it takes on average longer to unlock skills than in PvE, although some instances in elite skill capping are much longer in PvE. But if ArenaNet does lower the cost of skills, they should also introduce the idea of "unlocks" instead of armors/unIDed weapons in PvE. Right now the advantage PvE unlockers have is the skills, and the advantage PvP unlockers have is the items/runes. If PvPers want the costs for skills to go down, there should be unlocks in PvE to be paired along with that. Now, regarding Factions effect on PvE characters: Weapons such as swords and shields are tilted slightly to the PvP-only characters, but hardly. They start out with 15% dmg while health > 50%, something than takes forever to find in PvE or costs a lot through trading. Occasionally PvE characters come out on top, like with 7 req. max AL shields, but that it's very rare that one of these comes out with the modifiers the PvP shields have. In terms of most upgrades, it's as easy to buy them for your PvE characters as it is to unlock for your PvP characters to use, except in the extreme cases: +5 Vampiric Bow Strings, +30 Fortitude mods, etc. Some of these aren't needed, but others are extremely costly to buy/trade for your PvE characters to use, while it's pretty easy to unlock through PvP. The main problem is outfitting your character with runes. It could take you 500 hours to find a superior Vigor in PvE (another major problem with the game), and it could cost you 50-100k to buy it for your PvE character. If you unlocked a Superior Vigor through PvP with a PvE character, you should be able to use it on your PvE character. Make the rune customized so that it couldn't be traded, to prevent sale into the PvE world. CONCLUSION: ArenaNet said Guild Wars was a game of skill over time played. Then why was it so hard for everyone to unlock the runes/items before the patch, and why is it still hard for PvErs to unlock the upper most items? If two teams of equal skill play each other, the team with the better items/unlocks wins. So my irritations with the game right now: 1. The unlocking in regards to items/runes is heavily favored towards the Faction system and is not equal. Faction gives definite unlocks in regards to upgrades and runes, while rune/weapon drops in PvE can yield the player no NEW upgrades or runes. If you're going to allow faction rewards choose what is unlocked next, have armor and weapon drops be "unlocks" as well. If an armor drops, have a place in the outposts where I can go to an NPC, give them my unIDed armor, and select which rune I want to unlock next. Same with unIDed weapons. 2. The skill unlocking is heavily favored towards the PvE unlocking system and is not equal. Decrease the costs for normal skills and elites. Maybe you could balance the cost of an elite to how hard it is to capture it in PvE, but hey, you made them tedious to get. 3. GET RID OF VARIANCE IN MODS. Items aren't supposed to be of great importance, so just have one value for each mod. There shouldn't be a range of +1-5 AL for the "Insightful" mod, there should just be +5 and it's done with. That'll drive down the insane prices people like to charge for "perfect" items. "Perfect" mods don't show skill, they show luck. If everything's the same, nobody would even look to eBay to get that "uber" sword, because it'd be readily available to them in game. 4. Allow PvE characters to get items unlocked, but make the runes and upgrades customizable. Maybe they'd be unable to salvage the runes out of their armors, or the rune itself once salvaged would be customized so nobody else but that character could use it. Treat the item unlocks like the pre-order items. 5. I'd suggest that the Guild Lord in GvG act like the Priest in Tombs. Once he's killed, the team stops ressing, but you need to kill the team and their Guild Lord to win. That would stop ganking. But hey, if they had the important skills and runes unlocked, they wouldn't need to look for the "fastest" way. My opinion differs from STINGER in many ways regarding the PvP unlocking system. I think it's a good option for those who don't want to play PvE, and I can understand that because I dread leveling up characters and capping skills. I would like, however, for it to be equal with PvE, and that means tweaking on both sides. I don't agree with STINGER that it exclude the guilds below 1500, because although they can unlock 2.5 times faster than the lower guilds, eventually they won't need faction and they can help create a competitive atmosphere. Other guild will eventually get there as well. I do think, however, that many people should've looked past the 'Unlock All Skills' button they had in the BWEs and they should've realized that they were going to have to unlock at retail. ArenaNet has improved some of their unlocking in the way they changed Signet of Capture to work, but their nerfing of farming spots is in my opinion ridiculous in worsening an already bad state. At that point, farming was still preparing for PvP which ArenaNet said wouldn't be in the game, but killing Riverside and co. made it a hell of a lot worse. Of course, there's always the matter of making PvE actually interesting to play more than once, and the damn annoyance that FedEx quests add. When I first played this game, I always thought that I would level up my three characters to cover a warrior, monk, and an mesmer, and then use my 4th slot to make PvP characters for slots I didn't usually play. I wanted to be out there with my personally dyed armor, and unique weapons, etc. Then i completed PvE with my first character. I didn't want to do it again. In fact, I dreaded unlocking the skills. But understand there are people who want to PvP with their RP characters and be competitive. I understand that there are people who want to use PvP characters, but would rather unlock through PvE. I also understand that there are people who would want to unlock through PvP and not touch the PvE part of the game. Old Ascalon is terribly boring, and probably the worst area in the whole game. Maybe finding random items is part of the RP experience. But in that case, why does it have to be the same random item as before? If there are 25 runes, and I randomly unlock 1, then if it's going to HAVE to be truly random, then the next time I get a rune, it should be one of the 24. Then 23, 22, etc. and so on. Why do we keep getting shitty items as quest rewards? Would it not be better to get runes and item upgrades we can actually use? I'm tired of doing quests and getting my 3rd or 4th Divine Foci when I'm a E/Me. Give me a minor rune of my choice for the lower quest rewards. You do it for collector's items. Go out, find 5 Minotaur Horns, and when you go to the collector they'll give you options. For example, when I go to the collector Kelsay Pradist (aG respresent!), the collector asks me if I want the sword, the shield, foci, etc. Well let's let the collectors deal with those type of items. If I have to go deliver some package to a guy in a swamp, I don't want a god damn +6 energy item, I want a choice of runes or upgrades I actually desire. You'd unlock through this system too. On thoughts on PvE, how about monsters 5 levels below you will not aggro you? It's a pain in the ass running somewhere while 40 billion Hulking Elementals decide it'd be fun to play tag. And when an item drops, how about have a message that says "Do you want to pick up this item?" If the user says yes, it's placed in it's inventory if there's enough room. If the user says no, anyone can pick it up. People shouldn't have to pick up an item and then drop it so someone else can have it, and if a monster is camping on a hill and drops a rare Giant's Boot, I don't want to travel for 10 minutes picking the damn thing up. Last edited by Tigris Of Gaul; Aug 03, 2005 at 09:41 PM // 21:41.. |
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