Curse

Jenosavel · Dec 08, 2005, 06:36 PM // 18:36

As would probably be expected, since we authored a pet guide together, I agree with Epinephrine in this matter.

When you create a PvP character, you don't get a choice as to what your sword looks like. You don't get a choice as to what your bow looks like. Why should you get a choice as to what your pet looks like? I can understand some people's distaste for the wolf, as I personally can't stand its howling. However, PvP isn't about appearances, PvP is about skills and competition. If your primary concern when playing PvP is what your character looks like, you might want to ask yourself why you're playing PvP over PvE. PvE was the aspect of the game created to cater to those who liked to seek after shiny objects (as someone in here so nicely worded it).

Yes, you can play PvP and care what your character looks like, and yes, you can play PvE and without feeling the need to collect precious baubles. However, the primary focus of the two sides of the game is different. To allow all skins and visual options to the PvP character would absolutely ruin the game to many PvEers whose reason for playing is to get those pretty things others might not be able to. I'm not one of them, but a glance at nearly any farming thread will show you that they certainly are out there. Let them have their fun.

The prospect of chosing between a Dire, Elder, or Hearty, or of chosing between a wolf and a lizard is an entirely different matter. The actual differences in these pets' stats has a real impact on the battle and thus there is no reason a PvP player should be restricted. With certain beastmaster builds, one evolution may have a real advantage over another to the point that I, personally, would never use a PvP character over my PvE one when using a Beast Master build. Since the pet is my weapon, I want to use the pet that is best suited to my build. That isn't always the Elder.

qwe4rty · Dec 08, 2005, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenosavel

When you create a PvP character, you don't get a choice as to what your sword looks like. You don't get a choice as to what your bow looks like. Why should you get a choice as to what your pet looks like? I can understand some people's distaste for the wolf, as I personally can't stand its howling. However, PvP isn't about appearances, PvP is about skills and competition. If your primary concern when playing PvP is what your character looks like, you might want to ask yourself why you're playing PvP over PvE. PvE was the aspect of the game created to cater to those who liked to seek after shiny objects (as someone in here so nicely worded it).

Then again, you don't need to keep track of your sword.

Once you have a few wolves in the fight, it could get a little hectic trying to find yours.

Jenosavel · Dec 08, 2005, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Why isn't the party window good enough to keep track of your pet? Unless you're refering to trying to find your particular pet's corpse for the use of Revive Animal, I'm not sure why there's any difficulty here.

I rarely, if ever, scan the field to try and locate a party member or ally. The party window is incredibly more efficient for that if you just need to use a skill on them. Aside from that I don't know of any reason to need to physically see your pet on the field. Seeing its damage number pop up will allow you to time your pet attacks, and not seeing its damage number come up with tell you its stuck on something. If it is indeed stuck, targetting it in the party window and then glancing at the radar is much better for finding it that trying to look around the field and see where it is.

Siren · Dec 08, 2005, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenosavel

To allow all skins and visual options to the PvP character would absolutely ruin the game to many PvEers whose reason for playing is to get those pretty things others might not be able to. I'm not one of them, but a glance at nearly any farming thread will show you that they certainly are out there. Let them have their fun.

Jeno...those PvErs are pretty lame, though, wouldn't you think? I mean, it seems to me that anyone who bases their entire gaming experience on acquiring shiny things shouldn't be take into consideration when discussing a very reasonable PvPer request. The way I see it, whiny brats (i.e., the extreme opinions) are completely irrelevant when a perfectly moderate and level-headed idea is suggested, don't you agree?

I guess what I'm saying is...who gives two ****s about a bunch of whiny, bratty farmers getting pissed off because they can't be "uber-special" anymore? Their panties would get in a twist no matter what, really.

Mordakai · Dec 08, 2005, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Jeno...those PvErs are pretty lame, though, wouldn't you think? I mean, it seems to me that anyone who bases their entire gaming experience on acquiring shiny things shouldn't be take into consideration when discussing a very reasonable PvPer request. The way I see it, whiny brats (i.e., the extreme opinions) are completely irrelevant when a perfectly moderate and level-headed idea is suggested, don't you agree?

I guess what I'm saying is...who gives two ****s about a bunch of whiny, bratty farmers getting pissed off because they can't be "uber-special" anymore? Their panties would get in a twist no matter what, really.

LOL. Well, hell, in that case...

/not signed.

Good way to support your cause!

(BTW, why would you trash PvE for wanting unique stuff, and in the same breath want the same stuff for PvP? Aren't you just being as "bad" as a PvE player?)

Siren · Dec 08, 2005, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

LOL. Well, hell, in that case...

/not signed.

Good way to support your cause!

(BTW, why would you trash PvE for wanting unique stuff, and in the same breath want the same stuff for PvP? Aren't you just being as "bad" as a PvE player?)

Mord, the way I see it, I'm neither PvE nor PvP exclusive. I do both, so one, the "rules" regarding what "should be" PvE and PvP don't apply, and two, I'm not required to spout whatever nonsense is coming from either side. And let's be perfectly honest here: the argument coming from the PvE POV is complete nonsense. That's why you saw the hyperbolics in my post. I want to show how absurd the PvE-based argument against pet diversity is.

PvErs feel threatened because they can't be the only ones with all the shiny things in the game. Big deal. The request here doesn't undermine anything in PvE, and it sure as hell doesn't undermine that 12-year-old "I want the nice things that nobody else can have" mantra. The way I see it, this suggestion is merely offering different options to PvPers.

A PvPer's game is incredibly limited when it comes to options for diversity. Hell, they don't even have a viable way to re-equip characters yet without re-rolling the entire thing. And some of them just want a different pet other than a Wolf. That is not a problem, and a request for a more diverse pet line-up is nothing like the PvE mentality of "all nice things only for me." That's basically what you're getting at, and it's a flawed parallel to attempt to establish.

This suggestion was not "PvPers should get all of the shiny things." This suggestion is "PvPers should be able to have some pet diversity if they want." And there are those who want that pet diversity, and I do not see that desire as being equivalent to a PvE-esque "gimme gimme gimme gimme," nor should any sound-minded individual.

What was your point? Reply without deliberately spinning the posts. lol

BBoy_Manchild · Dec 08, 2005, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

Ummm....

/petname <InsertYourDesired12OrFewerCharactersMonikerHere >

That solves the problem nicely.

I see no need to get fancy skins and graphics for PvP play. We already get access to all the items we unlock in PvE, we can unlock more with faction ad so on. You don't get fellblades, chaos axes, fissure armour and all that as choices, nor should you. You want graphics for items you bring them from PvE. What I do believe is that PvP should be able to replicate anything in PvE, so as to not have any advantages - so:

- Green items should be in PvP lists

- The two types of damage from pets (slashing/piercing) should be possible - so add the Dune Lizard as a choice.

- The 3 pet evolutions should be possible (Dire/Elder/Hearty)

- Less than max items should be available, from another screen (generally hidden, unless you click "show all mesmer staves" for example) - this way if I for example have 5 tactics I can find a shield with the maximum AL for 5 tactics. As well, if I want to have a bow to switch to on a E/Mo for whatever reason, I want it to be the most damage I can get - 9-12 or so, not use a req 9 bow getting 3-5 damage with it.

- additional armour sets. As it is, I may want to swap my armour around, depending on what we face. I do this with PvE toons in PvP - why not? carry more than one armour in pack, swap based on what I face. This is an advantage for PvE players, the ability to have more than one suit of armour around.

i do not agree with you
pvp players get stuff pve chars cant, like many of the caster staffs/rods/offhands, i searched for a while for a death magic speed wand (20%) just to find out they do not exist in pve, pvp players get enough as it is, leave it be

chris_nin00 · Dec 08, 2005, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

This suggestion was not "PvPers should get all of the shiny things." This suggestion is "PvPers should be able to have some pet diversity if they want." And there are those who want that pet diversity, and I do not see that desire as being equivalent to a PvE-esque "gimme gimme gimme gimme," nor should any sound-minded individual.

Diversity is a shiny thing. Don't you think so?

/Not signed

darkdragon99 · Dec 08, 2005, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Siren how in the hell can you fight against something so hard then turn around in another subjet that basicly the same thing and fight tooth and nail to say it should be.

the way i see it this wouldn't change a thing in pve other than taking elements out of it that is there for pve alone

also pvp gets handed most of everything on a silver plater they already get enough things

remember when GW first came out and you had to pve to unlock skills and everything els that should have never change but it did pvp get everything for free or for timed played atlessed

pvp gets everything handed too them enough is enough

Jenosavel · Dec 09, 2005, 12:55 AM // 00:55

I'm not a PvPer or a PvEer either, really. I play both and would like to think I understand why people play both. With that said, PvEers want something to work towards. They get that, as they have to level their characters up to reach 20, seek out skills that they want to use, and work their way to new areas. PvPers, on the other hand, are only concerned with duking it out with other PvPers in a test of skill. As such the field must be even and PvPers are given those things I just mentioned. While it may seem stupid to some, the fact that the PvPers simply are handed these things can really take the wind out of many PvEer's sails. In the back of their mind they know that they could just role a PvP character and avoid all of the work they're doing. The simple fact that there is a way around makes doing things the hard way less rewarding. Afterall, if you put in countless hours to make a PvE character that is as good and versatile as a PvP one, what does it matter? No one's going to know or care. Therefore, the PvE game does need things which can only be obtained through PvE, things which are unique to PvE. Call it childish if you want, but players of both sides of the game deserve to have their fun. PvPers deserve their ability to roll maxed out characters quickly, PvEers deserve to have something unique to work towards.

However, you can't give PvEers something unique that actually impacts the playing field, as that would ultimately force competitive PvPers to use PvE characters for the benefits found only there. If it doesn't impact the playing field it's merely asthetic, and thus PvE gets all of the unique aesthetics. Skins, of all sorts, fall into this category and therefore have no place in PvP.

Like it or not, the PvEers need something special that the PvPers can't have (just like the PvPers get something special -the ability to skip the leveling up etc). The only thing they can have are different skins, so that's why they get them.

I'll remind people that I personally sympathize with the dislike of the wolf pet in PvP and understand people's desire for other pets. However, I also understand the reason skin choice has no place in PvP and thus I'll either deal with it or play some PvE. If the wolf and the lizard were offered as pets (as they have a tangible difference between them), I think it would satisfy those PvPers who can't bear the wolf any longer without infringing on the PvEer's territory of skin variety.

Siren · Dec 09, 2005, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenosavel

I'm not a PvPer or a PvEer either, really. I play both and would like to think I understand why people play both. With that said, PvEers want something to work towards. They get that, as they have to level their characters up to reach 20, seek out skills that they want to use, and work their way to new areas. PvPers, on the other hand, are only concerned with duking it out with other PvPers in a test of skill. As such the field must be even and PvPers are given those things I just mentioned. While it may seem stupid to some, the fact that the PvPers simply are handed these things can really take the wind out of many PvEer's sails. In the back of their mind they know that they could just role a PvP character and avoid all of the work they're doing. The simple fact that there is a way around makes doing things the hard way less rewarding. Afterall, if you put in countless hours to make a PvE character that is as good and versatile as a PvP one, what does it matter? No one's going to know or care. Therefore, the PvE game does need things which can only be obtained through PvE, things which are unique to PvE. Call it childish if you want, but players of both sides of the game deserve to have their fun. PvPers deserve their ability to roll maxed out characters quickly, PvEers deserve to have something unique to work towards.

However, you can't give PvEers something unique that actually impacts the playing field, as that would ultimately force competitive PvPers to use PvE characters for the benefits found only there. If it doesn't impact the playing field it's merely asthetic, and thus PvE gets all of the unique aesthetics. Skins, of all sorts, fall into this category and therefore have no place in PvP.

Like it or not, the PvEers need something special that the PvPers can't have (just like the PvPers get something special -the ability to skip the leveling up etc). The only thing they can have are different skins, so that's why they get them.

I'll remind people that I personally sympathize with the dislike of the wolf pet in PvP and understand people's desire for other pets. However, I also understand the reason skin choice has no place in PvP and thus I'll either deal with it or play some PvE. If the wolf and the lizard were offered as pets (as they have a tangible difference between them), I think it would satisfy those PvPers who can't bear the wolf any longer without infringing on the PvEer's territory of skin variety.

But let me ask you...how is it going to negatively impact the PvEr if PvP gets to choose between the wolf, moa bird, stalker, bear, etc? Ignoring the fact that those are so incredibly commonplace in the PvE portion of the game that they couldn't possibly be considered "unique" by any stretch of the imagination, how is including them as choices in PvP character creation going to suddenly "dull" the shine of PvE for PvErs?

I mean, aren't UW/FoW, Grenth's Footprint, Sorrow's Furnace, FoW armor, 15k armor, and holiday events in LA special enough?

And this suggestion is nowhere near asking for any of those special features catered specifically and exclusively to PvE.

All this suggestion is asking for is a wider variety of pets, even though they'd just be cosmetic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris_nin00

Diversity is a shiny thing. Don't you think so?

/Not signed

And chris, considering just how much bizarre PvE exclusive content there is...no, I don't consider requesting a bit more diversity/variety in terms of PvP pet selection to be asking for anything shiny.

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdragon

Siren how in the hell can you fight against something so hard then turn around in another subjet that basicly the same thing and fight tooth and nail to say it should be.

the way i see it this wouldn't change a thing in pve other than taking elements out of it that is there for pve alone

If you want to somehow prove there's a contradiction between my stances in these threads, you're going to need to prove one of two things:

One, that this suggestion for a choice of pet in PvP is going to be detrimental to combat dynamics and thus should not be implemented.

Or two, the other thread's suggestion you're referring to will not be detrimental to combat dynamics and thus should be implemented.

And as it stands now, you're going to have a pretty hard time proving either of those.

Quote:

also pvp gets handed most of everything on a silver plater they already get enough things

remember when GW first came out and you had to pve to unlock skills and everything els that should have never change but it did pvp get everything for free or for timed played atlessed

pvp gets everything handed too them enough is enough

How is this relevant at all? It doesn't sound like a valid reason to me. All it sounds like is whining. PvP handed most of everything on a silver platter? Yeah, if they got UAS, you'd have a point. But they didn't get UAS, so you don't have a point.

Kai Nui · Dec 09, 2005, 01:57 AM // 01:57

/notsigned.

I think that you should only be able to choose your pet if you're PVE or you have every ranger skill in the game. I think every class should have some kind of reward for getting every skill of a class, that could be part of the ranger reward.

Jenosavel · Dec 09, 2005, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Well Siren, I want to thank you greatly for having such an intelligent little conversation with me. It's so refreshing to argue something without having someone break down into petty insults. With that said, I'm going to respect your opinion even though I don't agree with it. I doubt either of us is going to convince the other, as we disagree on a very fundamental point: do things that are purely cosmetic belong in PvP? Obviously, I think not and I've done my best to say why. If you're not convinced, then I'm glad you had the respect to consider my arguments and respond without name-calling.

Its great to see nice people around the forums.

Mordakai · Dec 09, 2005, 04:08 AM // 04:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

But let me ask you...how is it going to negatively impact the PvEr if PvP gets to choose between the wolf, moa bird, stalker, bear, etc? Ignoring the fact that those are so incredibly commonplace in the PvE portion of the game that they couldn't possibly be considered "unique" by any stretch of the imagination, how is including them as choices in PvP character creation going to suddenly "dull" the shine of PvE for PvErs?

As a Ranger I can tell you, it's not easy to get this "great diversity" of pets.

Let's say I want a bear (even though they do less damage, according to the most recent Pet Guide posted here). Can I get one in Pre? No. In Ascalon? No. In Northern Shiverpeaks? No. In Kryta? No. In the Jungle? No. In the Desert? No.

If I want a bear for my PvE character, I have to wait until I get to Southern Shiverpeaks and then train a Level 5 Bear to Level 20.

So, yeah, there's going to be some resistance in allowing PvPers to get that for "free."

But, what the hell. I say PvPer should get any animal available in Pre: Wolf, Strider or Warthog. That wouldn't be too bad.

audioaxes · Dec 09, 2005, 06:53 AM // 06:53

lol why are yall getting so worked up if someone wants to pick pets?

Edge Martinez · Dec 09, 2005, 10:00 AM // 10:00

/don't matter

Pets in PvP are there to serve a purpose. Aside from IWAY, I've never been in a group with pets that have gone to the hall. Looks mean absolutely nothing. I won't stop and say, "Oh look... a dune lizard is attacking me, not a wolf."

qwe4rty · Dec 09, 2005, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenosavel

Why isn't the party window good enough to keep track of your pet? Unless you're refering to trying to find your particular pet's corpse for the use of Revive Animal, I'm not sure why there's any difficulty here.

I rarely, if ever, scan the field to try and locate a party member or ally. The party window is incredibly more efficient for that if you just need to use a skill on them. Aside from that I don't know of any reason to need to physically see your pet on the field. Seeing its damage number pop up will allow you to time your pet attacks, and not seeing its damage number come up with tell you its stuck on something. If it is indeed stuck, targetting it in the party window and then glancing at the radar is much better for finding it that trying to look around the field and see where it is.

If your pets not hung up, but just not at the target cuz you switched, it would be easier to just look at screen and see if you see a little moa bird floating around.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

Quote:

Originally Posted by qwe4rty

When pet builds become viable, do you want to hunt for your pets name to see where he is?

Ummm....

/petname <InsertYourDesired12OrFewerCharactersMonikerHere >

That solves the problem nicely.

Umm.... explain? I don't want to have to search for petname at all.

I don't exactly see the problem with giving PvPers a few new pets. I mean, exactly how many PvErs work towards a Melandrus Stalker (besides the quest?).

(As a side note, do different petsizes increase/decrease the number of times they get "stuck"?)

Epinephrine · Dec 09, 2005, 05:51 PM // 17:51

/petname solves it because you can tell which pet on the party status bar is yours. Then you can do anything you need - target it, find it on the minimap and so on.

I don't think that having choices would be a BAD thing, but:

1) I don't see why it is necessary
2) I don't think it should be prioritised over skins for weapons/armours

Since weapons/armours aren't available, I think that whatever reasoning ANet used to decide not to give PvPers Chaos axes and Fellblades should equally be applied to pet skins. Anything that makes a material difference, such as being able to pick a dire/piercing pet I agree with 100%. I also think you should be able to pick a piercing axe (since such exist) if you want. I just don't see any need for PvE frivolities on PvP characters - though I do bring my PvE toons into PvP.

BBoy_Manchild · Dec 10, 2005, 04:43 AM // 04:43

i think we all forget the main issue that they would have to add a whole new set of menus for these extra things for pvp
anet wont even fix tormentors armor, i think they are too busy with chapter 2 to make a large and really... cmon... an unneeded update like this