Curse

twicky_kid · Dec 08, 2005, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monseir

I've been a sword war for awhile and im considering switching over to axe or hammer. Any advice?

look at the condition chains for axe and hammers then decide. axes are faster killers. hammers is a form of interrupt while dealing nice dmg though it has less armor than sword and axe due to no shield.

hammers are my fav right now. my hammer chain will nearly kill a character alone while keeping them on the ground for 6 seconds.

Nexx · Dec 08, 2005, 04:58 AM // 04:58

I like the faster attack rate for the sword. The increase doesn't need to be too durastic.

For example, the current rate is 1.33 sec/per swing. Meaning in 8 seconds, we can get 6 swings with either an axe or a sword.

If we increase the sword rate just 15% (1.15 sec/per swing), we can squeeze in one additional swing in the given 8 seconds. Hardily an imbalance. The one more swing is an extra 15-22 damage plus an extra strike of andrenaline which I'm sure can go a long way in making the sword better without breaking it.

Guardian of the Light · Dec 08, 2005, 05:03 AM // 05:03

Another Sword to ax rumor poped up against sword

"Ax does more basic damage then sword"

Your attack damage balances beetween you minuim attack damage and your maximum. Swords is 15-22 and ax 6-28. When you see ax and sword they tend to do the same BASIC damage. This statement I just made does not include skills.

Phades · Dec 08, 2005, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

The whole reason 100 blades is an elite in the first place is because it was paired with IW and made a very cheap build.

I dont see why when you can just remove the enchantment. That pairing only really does more damage against higher armorlevels anyway, against lower armor levels you are better off without it. It also negates adrenalin gain entirely, so its pretty limited in use.

Nexx · Dec 08, 2005, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

Another Sword to ax rumor poped up against sword

"Ax does more basic damage then sword"

Your attack damage balances beetween you minuim attack damage and your maximum. Swords is 15-22 and ax 6-28. When you see ax and sword they tend to do the same BASIC damage. This statement I just made does not include skills.

In PvP basic damage is negligible. I think most people were referring to spike damage. Could explains why very few sword builds can solo a half decent monk... let alone do any damage. *cough* pre-made paladin *cough*

Guardian of the Light · Dec 08, 2005, 05:14 AM // 05:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

I dont see why when you can just remove the enchantment. That pairing only really does more damage against higher armorlevels anyway, against lower armor levels you are better off without it. It also negates adrenalin gain entirely, so its pretty limited in use.

Well the build got aditional nerfs AFTER they changed 100 blades to elite. Besides with mine I cast Vigorous spirt which makes the perfect cover enchantment(my IW guy is a Me/MO) Now you need more then one enchant remover or render enchantments. Also not every build cna carry a anti-enchant spell. Since IW doesn't get any reduction in damage 100 blades (if it had 75% Damage Penaty). I doupt they are going to un-nerf the build.

Either way I think we should add a NEW sword elite not change 100 blades. There are too many rumors that tell sword is weaker that stupid narrow minded ax warriors put in.

Quote:

*cough* pre-made paladin *cough*

Reason number 2 why everyone thinks sword warriors are weak.

Nexx · Dec 08, 2005, 05:43 AM // 05:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

There are too many rumors that tell sword is weaker that stupid narrow minded ax warriors put in.

And this is coming from an illusionary weapon user?

Look. When it comes down to it, an axe will do more damage than a sword. Both eviscerate and executioner can do a little over 100 damage with EACH swing. Closest bet? 100hundred+conjure+final?

Quote:

Reason number 2 why everyone thinks sword warriors are weak.

I would like to see this uber sword build of yours that can solo monks or rather a sword build that can spike as high as an axe. Apparently the build hasn't been discovered yet by the hundreds of thousand of players who use a sword in PvP.

Racthoh · Dec 08, 2005, 06:02 AM // 06:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexx

And this is coming from an illusionary weapon user?

Look. When it comes down to it, an axe will do more damage than a sword. Both eviscerate and executioner can do a little over 100 damage with EACH swing. Closest bet? 100hundred+conjure+final?

I would like to see this uber sword build of yours that can solo monks or rather a sword build that can spike as high as an axe. Apparently the build hasn't been discovered yet by the hundreds of thousand of players who use a sword in PvP.

Galrath Slash + Final Thrust will hit for around 250 damage at 16 sword against soft targets. Sever Artery + Gash + Final Thrust will do more DPS than Eviscerate + Executioner's Strike *if* the bleeding isn't removed. A sword will do more damage, it just takes longer. If you consider an 8v8 context, bleeding probably isn't at the top of a monk's priority list.

I wouldn't mind knowing the axe build that can solo monks since I personally have no problem against them. The same goes for swords. The only reason I will supposedly die singlehandedly to a warrior is because my energy is running low from having to heal my other teammates as well. In which case, the argument is null and void because you aren't soloing my monk as outside forces are interferring.

Nexx · Dec 08, 2005, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Galrath Slash + Final Thrust will hit for around 250 damage at 16 sword against soft targets. Sever Artery + Gash + Final Thrust will do more DPS than Eviscerate + Executioner's Strike *if* the bleeding isn't removed. A sword will do more damage, it just takes longer.

If that is the case then what's wrong with the pre-made paladin build. It's utilizing all the skills that you pointed out, right? Sever Artery + Gash + Slash + Thrust? If it's doing so much damage then what's wrong? How come they're not getting any respect? I play a lot of CA/TA and rarely do I find people being afraid of the fearsome sever+gash+slash+thrust paladin sword combo.

Over time damage is cute but when you need to kill someone in PvP with a warrior, you want to deal as much damage as quickly as possible with as little inbetween time for the target to be healed.

Quote:

The only reason I will supposedly die singlehandedly to a warrior is because my energy is running low from having to heal my other teammates as well. In which case, the argument is null and void because you aren't soloing my monk as outside forces are interferring.

Pardon. I should have been more specific. Obviously no monk would ever be engaged in pure soloing in PvP.

I guess the better question should have been: As a monk, would you rather have a sever+gash+slash+thrust warrior or an evis+execution+[blank]+[blank] axe warrior on you? Also consider that for final thrust to even do double damage, the target has to be under 50% life AND that you'll lose all your andrenaline if you use thrust. As a monk, I'll prefer the non~spiking sword build any day because I know that it can't provide constant and lethal pressure.

Racthoh · Dec 08, 2005, 07:16 AM // 07:16

The paladin premade doesn't have the sword attribute at 16, it's only at 12. No warrior is going to deal impressive damage at a 12 weapon attribute. When I played tank in CA with 16 tactics, 13 sword I thought dealing 80 damage with Desperation Blow was good damage. You have no hope of dealing that 250 damage with that low of a weapon attribute, consider you're only going to get +32 out of Galrath and Final (64 if below 50% naturally) as opposed to the +43 at 16. The sword will deal its spike, if I recall what I calculated, about 4 seconds later than an axe speed assuming no IAS buffs.

However, no respectable warrior should be considering PvP if they aren't including an IAS stance. You can't bank on the bleeding damage, but the fact is that damage is still there and if ignored (for the extended period of time that it lasts for) the damage does add up. Also in the calculations I made I was only counting the damage the bleeding did during the time in which it was induced to when Final Thrust hits.

Quite frankly, you can see the Eviscerate/Executioner's coming from a mile away. Last time I saw an axe warrior not using Eviscerate he was pushing up daisys. The spike is far too predictable, which is its counter. Also, do you know how funny it is use to use a level 0 Signet of Humility on an axe warrior after they've hit you 6 times? That takes a huge chunk out of their DPS right there.

Hundred Blades... doesn't suffer that weakness.

twicky_kid · Dec 08, 2005, 07:28 AM // 07:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Also, do you know how funny it is use to use a level 0 Signet of Humility on an axe warrior after they've hit you 6 times? That takes a huge chunk out of their DPS right there.

Hundred Blades... doesn't suffer that weakness.

sig of humility would also disable 100 blades. you might want to read what you typed.

Racthoh · Dec 08, 2005, 07:31 AM // 07:31

Yes I know, however the purpose is that Eviscerate loses all of the built up adrenaline. It would require a much higher attribute level in Inspiration for Hundred Blades to be affected as badly.

Nexx · Dec 08, 2005, 07:41 AM // 07:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

The paladin premade doesn't have the sword attribute at 16, it's only at 12. No warrior is going to deal impressive damage at a 12 weapon attribute.

Can't you just buy runes with your faction points and re-make the paladin so that you can push swordmanship to 16?

Quote:

Quite frankly, you can see the Eviscerate/Executioner's coming from a mile away. Last time I saw an axe warrior not using Eviscerate he was pushing up daisys. The spike is far too predictable, which is its counter. Also, do you know how funny it is use to use a level 0 Signet of Humility on an axe warrior after they've hit you 6 times? That takes a huge chunk out of their DPS right there.

Hundred Blades... doesn't suffer that weakness.

Oh yes. Like counting strikes, predicting eviscerate spikes and healing is an easy thing to do all at the same time. But hey, perhaps you're right. I might have been playing warriors wrong and not seen the power of the sever+gash+slash+thrust spike. Guess I'll go try the fearsome paladin sword combo with swordmanship at 16 and reck havoc in CA/TA. Wonder if I can also get into Tombs with my mad (not including bleeding) damage warrior?

Racthoh · Dec 08, 2005, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Builds use what, 1, 2 warriors? Against IWAY, you're in a tougher boat and when you start to consider attacks being blocked, damage inflicted on the warriors to build adrenaline for them (if you're hitting them), then it gets a lot harder. I'm not saying it's plausible every time, but the fact remains that you can still do it. Probably not practiced as much, but the pracitcally of it does have useful applications. At the very least you should know what the graphical effect of Eviscerate is so you can heal promptly before Executioner's Strike comes into effect.

And let us not forget that your axe warrior will probably be seen as more of a threat since everyone seems to view them as well, so they'll probably get hit by the Soothing Images before the sword warrior.

Okay... to put it in stone... the paladin premade sucks. At 16 sword, you increase the effectiveness of one of its downfalls. But, the healing will still suck and you're wasting 3 slots on your bar. You're only gaining 1 energy every 3 seconds so you can't exactly use the other sword skills as they require energy to use. And in the competition arenas you're just put there to survive since you have no time to discuss strategy whatsoever. Most warriors just sit there and tank anyway, and comparing CA/TA to tombs...

Hannibel · Dec 08, 2005, 08:51 AM // 08:51

swords have more conditions, the dmg is more constant, you just use it differently, it is still a skill tree.... kind of like how air skills do more then water skills, swords and axes can be used in different kinds of things, swords have lower adreneline, and the min dmg is high, it has more conditions that can be added to your enemy. Hundred blades is a really good skill especially for sword, it almost fills up all your adreneline skills, it recharges quickly, swing twice to target foe and adjacent foes. As for iway, you start out with HB already charged up, 2 orders in 2 swings while you rush into a group will have your whole setup charged up doing much more dmg faster then an axe could do.

Edge Martinez · Dec 08, 2005, 09:33 AM // 09:33

Is it possible to keep a hammer as your secondary weapon, equip Earth Shaker as your elite, and use a sword and Frenzy or TF to just keep adrenaline coming quick, then change out to hammer and drop everyone, then switch back, rinse and repeat?

I'm not asking if it's effective, just if it's possible.

As for hundred blades? I don't even bother to cap it. Cyclone axe? Used all the time in PvE, but I never take it in PvP.

Phades · Dec 08, 2005, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

Well the build got aditional nerfs AFTER they changed 100 blades to elite. Besides with mine I cast Vigorous spirt which makes the perfect cover enchantment(my IW guy is a Me/MO) Now you need more then one enchant remover or render enchantments. Also not every build cna carry a anti-enchant spell. Since IW doesn't get any reduction in damage 100 blades (if it had 75% Damage Penaty). I doupt they are going to un-nerf the build.

You cant have hundred blades and be a monk at the same time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

Either way I think we should add a NEW sword elite not change 100 blades. There are too many rumors that tell sword is weaker that stupid narrow minded ax warriors put in.

Compared to eviserate->executioners in a vaccume, it is weaker. Not every warrior can apply a deep wound though. That combo is ready and used more often than final thrust can be used alone and far outclasses sever artery->gash->galrath. Actually not much compares to eviserate->executioners, not even other axe skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

Reason number 2 why everyone thinks sword warriors are weak.

Actually thats the reason why any wariror is considered "weak". Its because they are trying to do something that they are not designed to do and the worst at faking it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Galrath Slash + Final Thrust will hit for around 250 damage at 16 sword against soft targets. Sever Artery + Gash + Final Thrust will do more DPS than Eviscerate + Executioner's Strike *if* the bleeding isn't removed. A sword will do more damage, it just takes longer. If you consider an 8v8 context, bleeding probably isn't at the top of a monk's priority list.

Actually that is false. It does worse spike damage, ie short time frame application and it does worse damage over time. The only time it does more if its used once and only evaluated in the time final thrust is able to charge once. Extend the timeline out to 8 consecutive adrenalin charge/spikes and the sword user has a minimum of 24 additional swings to perform before he catches up to the axe user. Durring that time the axe user spikes nearly 3 more times. The parity only gets worse if the any target survives, or if one of the spikers is removed from the equasion, or if you are trying to rely on stacking bleeding to bridge the gap between multiple sword versus axe users.

Guardian of the Light · Dec 08, 2005, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

You cant have hundred blades and be a monk at the same time.

Ok fine I'll spam Illisoin of haste and/or use Sympathetic Visage instead

Zhou Feng · Dec 09, 2005, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Sword are the weakest weapon warriors have. All it has going for it is Sever, Gash, Final Thrust. Sword needs more varied sword skills. They should also move Riposte and Deadly Riposte to Sword and maybe give it some armor penetration since those skills are more anti warrior then anything. As it stands I'll stick to my Axe Warrior.

Racthoh · Dec 09, 2005, 05:55 AM // 05:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Actually that is false. It does worse spike damage, ie short time frame application and it does worse damage over time. The only time it does more if its used once and only evaluated in the time final thrust is able to charge once. Extend the timeline out to 8 consecutive adrenalin charge/spikes and the sword user has a minimum of 24 additional swings to perform before he catches up to the axe user. Durring that time the axe user spikes nearly 3 more times. The parity only gets worse if the any target survives, or if one of the spikers is removed from the equasion, or if you are trying to rely on stacking bleeding to bridge the gap between multiple sword versus axe users.

In which case it comes down to how you want to execute the spike. Do you want a spike that hits for 600 damage over 2 seconds, or an 800 damage spike over 3 seconds? (Just random numbers, for sake of argument) One gives the opponent less time to react, but fewer heals to compensate the damage. The other gives more time, but requires a stronger healing to counter the damage. Packing in more damage in a small time frame also requires precision timing, spread it out slightly for human error. Currently, speed appears to be what option they choose.