Curse

Retribution X · Dec 06, 2005, 07:52 PM // 19:52

I have an idea that'd save the day from this going to IW again.

Change the "Swing" to "Attack". that'd blow IW build completly. Here's how i'd like it the most and second most.

Hundred blades (Elite)
Swing twice at all adjacent foes for +X damage.
this attack has 20% armor penetration.

Now THAT'S a GOOD elite.

Hundred Blades
Attack twice at all adjacent foes.

3 times would be a charm...

Rancour · Dec 06, 2005, 08:14 PM // 20:14

I like Retributions idea, except of course IW-builds are easily countered since the whole build revolves around a a single, remove-prone skill.

But I like the new Hundred Blades.

Guardian of the Light · Dec 07, 2005, 12:15 AM // 00:15

HOLD UP!!!!!!!

Why do you gusy think 100 blades is so bad. It can be boosted more then any other Damage dealing attack. This build takes advantage of that http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...+Strike +Team.

Sure 100 blades is bad on its own but it can combo like crazy.

Secondly sword has the best non-elite spike skills know as Final Thrust if an oppenent has below 50% health it can add up to over 100 damage

.

I figured this

Final Thrust > Executioner's Strike
Gasarath Slash + Final > Penetrating Blow + Executioner's Strike
100 blades Gasartath + Final < Eviscerate + Penetrating Blow + Executioner's Strike

Thats why an IWAY warrior is best an Ax warrior. The stupid rumor arised when IWAY came out and Ax warrior turned out to be better in it. Sword is more ideal if your using an elite in a different then an attack.

Now can a Mod close this.

Slade xTekno · Dec 07, 2005, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

Now can a Mod close this.

The purpose of an online forum is not to quash discussion, but to encourage it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

HOLD UP!!!!!!!

Why do you gusy think 100 blades is so bad. It can be boosted more then any other Damage dealing attack. This build takes advantage of that http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...+Strike +Team.

Why do what a Ranger Spike can do in melee?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

Sure 100 blades is bad on its own but it can combo like crazy.

So can Cyclone Axe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

Secondly sword has the best non-elite spike skills know as Final Thrust if an oppenent has below 50% health it can add up to over 100 damage

.

One that you can use every 10 swings and afterward lose all adrenaline? Damage potential is not the only thing you consider when spiking. Also, I find myself doing almost 100 damage with Evis and Exe alone at 16 Axe Mastery.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

I figured this

Final Thrust > Executioner's Strike
Gasarath Slash + Final > Penetrating Blow + Executioner's Strike
100 blades Gasartath + Final < Eviscerate + Penetrating Blow + Executioner's Strike

Executioner's cost less than Final Thrust, and can thus be used more often.
PB + Exe takes a shorter amount of time to charge than GS + Final.
An Axe Spike is two attacks [Evis/Exe], not three, so PB is moot. Plus, you get no deep wound.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

Thats why an IWAY warrior is best an Ax warrior. The stupid rumor arised when IWAY came out and Ax warrior turned out to be better in it. Sword is more ideal if your using an elite in a different then an attack.

IWAY is best when you run different types of Warriors. The last time I checked, Deep Wounds don't stack. Plus, HB + Orders is pretty harsh.

Retribution X · Dec 07, 2005, 01:14 AM // 01:14

2 words. Hell yeah.

yeah, it CAN be effective, but heck, we are COMPARING here. what 1337 combo do we have to use to make it good? it's not altogether that great. eviscerate and cleave are WAY better. +46 dmg? hell, there's NO way you could get that from 2 strikes. 3 strikes maybe, but not 2. if hundred blades ADDED dmg, it'd rock hell outta the UW.

HB has NICE combo's VS undead, with judges insight cast upon the war.

Guardian of the Light · Dec 07, 2005, 01:47 AM // 01:47

I figured out a combo with 100 blades

(Winnowing+Order of Vampire+Order of Pain+Pred Season+Barbs+Weaken Armor+Target suffering from deep wound+Mark of Pain+Strength of Honour) x 100 blades

Holy crap thats a lot of damage would need a team to do it but still that might be 1 hit KO

Retribution X · Dec 07, 2005, 02:04 AM // 02:04

damn big damage...

Phades · Dec 07, 2005, 04:38 AM // 04:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

I figured out a combo with 100 blades

(Winnowing+Order of Vampire+Order of Pain+Pred Season+Barbs+Weaken Armor+Target suffering from deep wound+Mark of Pain+Strength of Honour) x 100 blades

Holy crap thats a lot of damage would need a team to do it but still that might be 1 hit KO

Considering the skills involved, why waste a slot on a warrior. That is ranger spike supported by necromancy. Also, strength of honor would ruin all of the necromancer skills cept weaken armor as the damage is converted to holy instead of physical.

If a fix is needed to try and regain the parity between axes and swords, then the first step would be to have hundred blades mirror eviserate more than cyclone axe. One way (it wouldnt change alot in the long term due to game mechanics) would be for hundred blades to add bleeding to all targets struck. Then it would be similar to the W/R or R/W combinations doing the same with apply posion and cyclone axe. In raw damage it still would not compare to eviserate though, untill it recieved a fairly substantial damage bonus. Swords still could stand to have another eliete attack skill that was adrenalin based and high damage. Probably something along the lines of a reverse final thrust would work. The attack be adrenalin based and do double bonus damage if the target is above 50% health similar to shadow strike.

Unfortunatly there appears to be an "accepted" notion that skills must be bad in order for some to be good (see cleave vs eviserate for example). Personally i dont think this needs to be the case. I think that skills need to be equally useful under a similar total number of circumstances. This would probably require many damage and healing skills to be toned back greatly, or alot of the utility or support style skills to be improved radically.

Racthoh · Dec 07, 2005, 05:08 AM // 05:08

Hundred Blades is fine the way it is, and all I would like to see is another sword elite for the sake of choice. If you don't think swords can compete against axes as far as DPS is concerned, bring Charge! to aid your axe swinging counterparts. If you're playing PvE, use Gladiator's Defense and tank.

Guardian of the Light · Dec 07, 2005, 05:32 AM // 05:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Considering the skills involved, why waste a slot on a warrior. That is ranger spike supported by necromancy. Also, strength of honor would ruin all of the necromancer skills cept weaken armor as the damage is converted to holy instead of physical.

If a fix is needed to try and regain the parity between axes and swords, then the first step would be to have hundred blades mirror eviserate more than cyclone axe. One way (it wouldnt change alot in the long term due to game mechanics) would be for hundred blades to add bleeding to all targets struck. Then it would be similar to the W/R or R/W combinations doing the same with apply posion and cyclone axe. In raw damage it still would not compare to eviserate though, untill it recieved a fairly substantial damage bonus. Swords still could stand to have another eliete attack skill that was adrenalin based and high damage. Probably something along the lines of a reverse final thrust would work. The attack be adrenalin based and do double bonus damage if the target is above 50% health similar to shadow strike.

Unfortunatly there appears to be an "accepted" notion that skills must be bad in order for some to be good (see cleave vs eviserate for example). Personally i dont think this needs to be the case. I think that skills need to be equally useful under a similar total number of circumstances. This would probably require many damage and healing skills to be toned back greatly, or alot of the utility or support style skills to be improved radically.

Strenght of Honour lets you deal extra holy damage it doesn't change you original damage from Phyical trust me I know. Since Strengh of Honour only works in Melee... Sword>Bow. Also don't forget the Armor penatation from Stregth however I tried a R/W 100 blader and a Combination of Zealous and Expertsie puts 100 Blades cost and the amount gained even for 1! target and you gain more if you got multiple targets beside each other.

WOOT I'm premoted to Ministry of Knowledge

twicky_kid · Dec 07, 2005, 05:49 AM // 05:49

i believe its all about the deep wound for warriors. there is no more powerful condition on the game that is covered up instantly.

with the warrior conditions you want to look at the chains to inflict a deep wound.

axe: deep wound (evisc, swift, dismember)-->cripple or weakness

hammer: weakness (devistating)-->KD-->deep wound (crushing blow)-->KD (heavy blow)

sword: bleedin (sever)-->deep wound (gash)

when you look at the condition chain warriors rely on sword just cannot compete. axe can inflict deep wound on the first skill and then cover it with the next attack. axes seem like they do more dmg but its from the deep wounds -20% healing.

hammers have a nice chain. only problem i have with hammer is no way to cover the deep wound. with a hammer you probly won't need to anyways but it does help.

sword has to rely on the "worst" condition on the game to inflict deep wound. bleeding is the lowest degen and easily detected by monks. swords would have to chain hamstring behind the gash to cover the deep wound. gash will do a big 9 more dmg while hamstring has no dmg buff. axe can do deep wound + dmg then cripple + dmg.

simply there are just better options mainly because of swords lack of condition chaining.

VGJustice · Dec 07, 2005, 06:12 AM // 06:12

I've noticed a lot of people saying that swords should have a higher attack speed. I thought about this too, but I figured one major problem: IW. If you've ever been on the recieving end of this and you team didn't have a disenchant, you know how bad it hurts. Now, what happens if they attack faster normally? Yeah, more hurt. Granted, enchant strip is something that should be concidered by every player setting up a team, but if you miss it even once, that's a heck of a lot of damage. It wouldn't help Sword builds, it'd just help IW builds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

How about this? Change Hundred Blades back to 75%, non elite. Change Final Thrust to an elite. Give it +42, (or whatever), instead of +34. Now everyone's happy, right?

I really like this idea. I also like the idea of a defensive stance linked to Swordsmanship (call it Fencer's Stance

), but the stance wouldn't help in PvP nearly as much as the potential of making Final more damaging.

Well, take this as you will, my measly 4 fame 0 rank doesn't speak very loudly.

PieXags · Dec 07, 2005, 06:23 AM // 06:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

i believe its all about the deep wound for warriors. there is no more powerful condition on the game that is covered up instantly.

with the warrior conditions you want to look at the chains to inflict a deep wound.

axe: deep wound (evisc, swift, dismember)-->cripple or weakness

hammer: weakness (devistating)-->KD-->deep wound (crushing blow)-->KD (heavy blow)

sword: bleedin (sever)-->deep wound (gash)

when you look at the condition chain warriors rely on sword just cannot compete. axe can inflict deep wound on the first skill and then cover it with the next attack. axes seem like they do more dmg but its from the deep wounds -20% healing.

hammers have a nice chain. only problem i have with hammer is no way to cover the deep wound. with a hammer you probly won't need to anyways but it does help.

sword has to rely on the "worst" condition on the game to inflict deep wound. bleeding is the lowest degen and easily detected by monks. swords would have to chain hamstring behind the gash to cover the deep wound. gash will do a big 9 more dmg while hamstring has no dmg buff. axe can do deep wound + dmg then cripple + dmg.

simply there are just better options mainly because of swords lack of condition chaining.

Personally I really enjoy the bleeding condition, sure it's a relatively low degen and is easily removed and noticed, but only as much as all the other conditions. Bleeding, however, lasts much longer than most other conditions and makes for a good mask when it comes to removing conditions and hexes.

twicky_kid · Dec 07, 2005, 06:37 AM // 06:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

Personally I really enjoy the bleeding condition, sure it's a relatively low degen and is easily removed and noticed, but only as much as all the other conditions. Bleeding, however, lasts much longer than most other conditions and makes for a good mask when it comes to removing conditions and hexes.

the entire problem of bleeding is with a sword it will not cover the deep wound. the other 2 weapons have that option. condition removal is everywhere so you must cover your conditions just like hexes. axes have it from the very first skill then can cover with weakness and cripple.

hammer can inflict the dp first also if you know how

then devistating for the weakness.

PieXags · Dec 07, 2005, 06:38 AM // 06:38

I suppose you're right, I don't play a warrior though so what the hell a sword does makes no nevermind to me. I prefer axes as a whole just because I like the shape of them more. I was speaking about bleeding in general, I just thinks it's a sweet simple annoyance.

Phades · Dec 07, 2005, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

Strenght of Honour lets you deal extra holy damage it doesn't change you original damage from Phyical trust me I know. Since Strengh of Honour only works in Melee... Sword>Bow. Also don't forget the Armor penatation from Stregth however I tried a R/W 100 blader and a Combination of Zealous and Expertsie puts 100 Blades cost and the amount gained even for 1! target and you gain more if you got multiple targets beside each other.

WOOT I'm premoted to Ministry of Knowledge

Read strength of honor, thought judge's insight. Regardless, why use that skill when you can have a ranger do that with preps and other spirits for even more damage and not lose a pip of energy regen per character enchanted. Its pointless really.

twicky_kid · Dec 08, 2005, 01:15 AM // 01:15

swords really need a better condition chain to be competetive in pvp.

just simply outmatched by hammer and axe.

my best suggestion would be to lower hamstrings recharge or make it an adrenaline skill that cannot be "blocked" or "evaded."

there are 2 conditions that are the bane for just about everyone that is deep wound and cripple. axe has to inflict deep wound>cripple. problem with that is you can't snare your target till the 2nd hit w/o support from your team.

swords can inflict an instant cripple but the attack must hit. if it does hit you have nothing to cover it up with until you have the other adrenaline skills charged. even if they are charged your only option is sever which is below subpar.

i like the idea of working on cripple for swords to start the condition chain. that will give the weapon a unique quality and playing style.

Monseir · Dec 08, 2005, 01:21 AM // 01:21

I've been a sword war for awhile and im considering switching over to axe or hammer. Any advice?

Ristaron · Dec 08, 2005, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slade xTekno

Lately, all PvE Warrior builds seem to be using the same skill - Cyclone Axe. I mean, the fact that it hits so many targets makes it easy to combo with other skills, like Apply Poison [+ "Victory is mine!"], Live Vicariously, and Zealous weapons.

And then we have poor Hundred Blades. During the BWEs, this was a very popular skill, also accessible quite early in the game, making it a viable substitute to CA. Although [if used properly], it hit twice as many people people as CA, it had double the cooldown. It even had a damage penalty on both attacks [each did 75% damage], while CA has a damage bonus. HB is now also Elite; sure, we could easily do HB + LV, but why give up an Elite slot when you could use Cyclone Axe instead?

The early game is sharply tipped to axes as well. We learn an equal number of sword and axe skills in Pre-Searing [2]. Once we hit the Searing, it is strongly tipped to axes for a good while. In Ascalon, we learn two new axe skills [Dismember, Penetrating Blow], but no sword skills. Hell, even hammers get their adrenaline damage attack.

Due all the above, the balance between Sword and Axe Warriors in game has been sharply tipped to the Axe's favor. Hammer Warriors also have a bit of trouble for a while.

In order to fix this balance, I have two proposals.

1] Revise Hundred Blades to the following:

Hundred Blades - Sword Attack Skill
10e, 8sec cooldown
Swing twice at target foe and foes adjacent to your target. Each hit strikes for 75% damage

Hundred Blades was made Elite due to it's synergy with Illusionary Weaponry. During the BWEs, the IW Me/W was a very popular build, capable of an 80dmg AoE attack every 8 seconds and over 40dps. In today's current PvP environment, players have learned to strip enchantments, making IW a much smaller threat. If Hundred Blades was non-Elite, several old builds, like IW and Flourish, could again become viable options instead of trick-ponies.
Introuduce it earlier as well. Adding it to a difficult yet early quest like Military Matters could greatly help balance axes and swords.

Or, as a last resort...
2] Make Cyclone Axe Elite.
Barrage strikes multiple opponents with a damage opponent in one attack and is easily spammed, but the number of enemies is capped.
Hundred Blades also strikes multiple opponents in one attack, but each attack suffers a damage penalty, it has an 8sec cooldown [compared to 4 and 2 for CA and Barrage, respectively], and is Elite.
I know you may use it currently, but don't you think it's a bit powerful?

Thank you for your time. Please post constructive criticism and comments.

You have said exactly what I have been trying to say in non-official places.

/signed
And may all you cyclone axe spammers burn in hell for taking offense to the post. Swords>Axes.

Guardian of the Light · Dec 08, 2005, 02:41 AM // 02:41

Well Anet doesn't like to GET RID OF builds it likes to decrease their power.

The whole reason 100 blades is an elite in the first place is because it was paired with IW and made a very cheap build.

However I do agree Sword needs ANOTHER elite. 100 blades is fine the way it is. Some guy said on my 100 blade team forum that he was getting pwned by 100 blade sword warrior Korean R/W ninjas. They made use of expertise and the fact that 100 blades is the only elite which costs energy.

I had a strange dream where they made pure strike an elite and it did 40+ extra damage adn couldn't be blocked or evaded

. Yes it was very strange.