Curse

Slade xTekno · Sep 24, 2005, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Lately, all PvE Warrior builds seem to be using the same skill - Cyclone Axe. I mean, the fact that it hits so many targets makes it easy to combo with other skills, like Apply Poison [+ "Victory is mine!"], Live Vicariously, and Zealous weapons.

And then we have poor Hundred Blades. During the BWEs, this was a very popular skill, also accessible quite early in the game, making it a viable substitute to CA. Although [if used properly], it hit twice as many people people as CA, it had double the cooldown. It even had a damage penalty on both attacks [each did 75% damage], while CA has a damage bonus. HB is now also Elite; sure, we could easily do HB + LV, but why give up an Elite slot when you could use Cyclone Axe instead?

The early game is sharply tipped to axes as well. We learn an equal number of sword and axe skills in Pre-Searing [2]. Once we hit the Searing, it is strongly tipped to axes for a good while. In Ascalon, we learn two new axe skills [Dismember, Penetrating Blow], but no sword skills. Hell, even hammers get their adrenaline damage attack.

Due all the above, the balance between Sword and Axe Warriors in game has been sharply tipped to the Axe's favor. Hammer Warriors also have a bit of trouble for a while.

In order to fix this balance, I have two proposals.

1] Revise Hundred Blades to the following:

Hundred Blades - Sword Attack Skill
10e, 8sec cooldown
Swing twice at target foe and foes adjacent to your target. Each hit strikes for 75% damage

Hundred Blades was made Elite due to it's synergy with Illusionary Weaponry. During the BWEs, the IW Me/W was a very popular build, capable of an 80dmg AoE attack every 8 seconds and over 40dps. In today's current PvP environment, players have learned to strip enchantments, making IW a much smaller threat. If Hundred Blades was non-Elite, several old builds, like IW and Flourish, could again become viable options instead of trick-ponies.
Introuduce it earlier as well. Adding it to a difficult yet early quest like Military Matters could greatly help balance axes and swords.

Or, as a last resort...
2] Make Cyclone Axe Elite.
Barrage strikes multiple opponents with a damage opponent in one attack and is easily spammed, but the number of enemies is capped.
Hundred Blades also strikes multiple opponents in one attack, but each attack suffers a damage penalty, it has an 8sec cooldown [compared to 4 and 2 for CA and Barrage, respectively], and is Elite.
I know you may use it currently, but don't you think it's a bit powerful?

Thank you for your time. Please post constructive criticism and comments.

Tactical-Dillusions · Sep 24, 2005, 01:26 AM // 01:26

I only ever use axes and if cyclone axe (glued to my skillbar) was made elite, i would be the most unhappy person in GW. All my warrior builds use other elites in conjunction with CA. This course of action would render my builds ineffective.

Cyclone axe damage is only decent enough with high points in axe mastery. It does less damage than most other axe attacks and it relies on you having several adjacent enemies to be used effectively...otherwise it's not worth the 5 energy.

Buff other skills yes, but please please please, can everybody stop asking for nerfs to the skills which we enjoy using. It's killing the fun.

dargon · Sep 24, 2005, 01:36 AM // 01:36

I don't know if it's constructive or not, but barrage is a 1 second cooldown, not 2. I don't agree that 100 swords should be reduced from it's elite status as it does way more dmg to a single target than cyclone axe, however I think it should be given to a few more bosses to make it easier to capture. Having to wait till the very last mission seems pointless to me.

legandry · Sep 24, 2005, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Let's fact it, HB is one of the worst elites in the game; however, nerfing cyclone is not the best way to make it better. In my opinion, HB would be greatly improved if only one thing was changed: make it hit all adjacent targets to you instead of all adjacent foes to your target. Cyclone axe is like this, and it allows you to hit enemies behind you and in front of you, but HB only allows you to hit those in front of you and people by them. This usually means only 1-2 targets where cyclone gets 2+ almost every time.

Let's compare CA vs. HB over a 16 second time period. HB will hit at 0, 8, and 16 seconds (not counting for swing times). In this time you will spend 15 energy, and will hit a total of 6 times (plus more per foe by your target).

CA will hit at 0, 4, 8, 12, and 16 seconds (again, not counting for swing times). In this time you will spend 25 energy, and will hit a total of 5 times (plus more per foe by you). Also, you will strike for an additional 50 dmg at lvl 12 axe mastery.

From this comparison, we can see that you spend an additional 10 energy in 16 seconds by using CA (though you do save your elite).

If you are only attacking one target with CA, you hit 0 extra times, but you do +50 dmg to the target. Against one target, HB will hit 3 extra times with no bonus to dmg. In this case, HB will do slightly more dmg unless you are attacking someone with high armor.

With 2 targets, both in front, HB hits 6 extra times with no bonus to dmg, and CA hits 5 extra times for +100 dmg. Again, HB will most likely do slightly more dmg unless you are attacking someone with high armor.

If you have one target in front and one in back, HB hits 3 extra times with no bonus to dmg, but CA hits 5 extra times for +100 dmg. In this case, CA wins hands down.

My suggestion is that HB remains as an elite, but it is changed to target all surrounding you instead of your target. HB will then become a better adrenaline charging attack, will still do good damage, and will still save energy over CA. Also, a small bonus to dmg or armor penetration couldn't hurt it (like the one CA has). As it stands, sword attacks seem to be quite a bit inferior to axe, as there are only 2 hard-hitting attacks - final thrust & Galrath's - both of which take high adrenaline levels to use, compared to axes 3 or 4 spike dmg attacks (it is harder to compare to hammer, as that is a totally different world).

I would like to hear your opinions on what you think about swords/HB... I am still searching for a good sword build.

Good luck

OverlordTyrael · Sep 24, 2005, 04:06 AM // 04:06

I also think the lack of a high damage sword elite is problematic. Seriously, while axe users have Eviscerate and Cleave, sword's stuck with HB? I really can't think of any sword elite that's actually useful in the current metagame. The only reason we see sword users is because swords do more damage than axes do when you AREN'T using elites, and therefore, the sword users can bring along other elites and still do decent damage. I still feel that although sword is supposedly the "multipurpose weapon," a high damage sword build should be possible.

Knight of Eternal Darknes · Sep 24, 2005, 04:17 AM // 04:17

my brother has found that hundred blades is a very very useful skill to use with the right setup, when your in pvp theres usually a lot of people where your attacking someone, so you use hundred blades and while theres people around you, most of your skills are recharged, where as axe each axe skill is 6+adreneline for each one that is useful where as sword is in the low 4-5's and have a high min dmg, 13 strength, 16 into sword with all sword dmg skills makes you do more dmg then you actually would think of doing, sure axe have +6max dmg but it also only has 6 min dmg as max, axe is easier to use but with the right sword setup it can be better then a axe warrior in dmg output, but axe i think is better overall, high enough dmg and add in some stances, and bring wild blow for the extreme stance warriors/rangers/IW mesmers

Judas Paladin · Sep 24, 2005, 04:20 PM // 16:20

quick fix. make hundred blades non elite and easier to get ( buyable )
or make it so hundred blades acts more as CA
and add another AoE attack for swords, possibly elite

my proposed FUN solution! :

add in another sword elite, something along the lines of a swordsmanship stance. Yes as tyrael said the sword should be the multipurpose weapon, i believe one of the purposes of the sword should be to block attacks ( like a fencer can ), i'd find it much harder to believe you could block attacks with an axe or *laugh* a hammer with much ease and success. So i'd say add in either a nice skill ( low cooldown and VERY low adrenaline cost say like 2-3 strikes only to make it ELITE status ) like riposte/deadly riposte but perhaps more effective somehow. OR add in a long lasting ( like shield stance duration ) swordsmanship STANCE which requires you to be wielding a sword to use, something similar to gladiator's defense in a way but longer lasting. I believe swords have lower damage and worse all around skills for a single reason, which is a sword warriors defensive ability with riposte/deadly riposte, etc. And I hope anet works on this.

This would give sword wielders an edge, even with the lack of an AoE attack you wouldnt have to put any points into tactics ( although i don't suggest that) to have a stance and could beef up your strength to be more all around thus opening up more posibilities for the " versatile " sword warrior.

JYX · Sep 24, 2005, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judas Paladin

quick fix. make hundred blades non elite and easier to get ( buyable )
or make it so hundred blades acts more as CA
and add another AoE attack for swords, possibly elite

Yeah, thats what it used to be. Hundred Blades was non-elite and did 75% damage with each strike. Anet made it elite and removed the weapon damage...apparently because people kept comboing it with Illusionary Weaponry and Conjures.

At the time I protested, and did some quick maths (perhaps flawed, I don't recall) showing even with Illusionary Weaponry the extra damage of one more attacks every 8 seconds isn't all that hot (5 more DPS? OH NOES?!?!). Nobody listened. I got the usual fustrating answer of "it looks so cool I'd use it anyway"...well gee...thanks. Conjures meanwhile have been nerfed...lots.

Considering a Dev actively told me to go and use cyclone axe instead...I really really don't think they want to change it.

schutz · Sep 24, 2005, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Why change CA, its only useful for farming thats all its a terrible skill otherwise and then comparing a axe to a sword is stupid especially as axes are smaller easier to manouver with whereas swords are long and you cant go spinning in circles, i know that seems stupid but there trying realism

unienaule · Sep 24, 2005, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Axes... are easier to maneuver? What? Have you ever held an axe? That is totally untrue. Anyway, I think that swords are the Earth of Warriors. It's never going to do as much damage as axes. That's because damage... Isn't everything!

conker · Sep 24, 2005, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Hundred blades suck period

all warrior elites suck in my opinion, except eviserate, and victory is mine..

Slade xTekno · Sep 24, 2005, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tactical-Dillusions

I only ever use axes and if cyclone axe (glued to my skillbar) was made elite, i would be the most unhappy person in GW. All my warrior builds use other elites in conjunction with CA. This course of action would render my builds ineffective.

Cyclone axe damage is only decent enough with high points in axe mastery. It does less damage than most other axe attacks and it relies on you having several adjacent enemies to be used effectively...otherwise it's not worth the 5 energy.

Buff other skills yes, but please please please, can everybody stop asking for nerfs to the skills which we enjoy using. It's killing the fun.

That's how many Sword warriors felt when HB was made Elite.
No matter how many or few points you have in Axe Mastery, you still hit everyone and gain the same amount of adrenaline.
To be honest, I would much rather buff HB than nerf CA, but I'm willing to go with whatever it takes to even the playing field.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dargon

I don't know if it's constructive or not, but barrage is a 1 second cooldown, not 2. I don't agree that 100 swords should be reduced from it's elite status as it does way more dmg to a single target than cyclone axe, however I think it should be given to a few more bosses to make it easier to capture. Having to wait till the very last mission seems pointless to me.

There was a time where Hundred Blades was the first Elite you could really capture, as it was on a Warrior Charr boss somewhere in the Breach/Diessa area. Giving it to us early, even though it's Elite, would help the balance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by legandry

Let's fact it, HB is one of the worst elites in the game; however, nerfing cyclone is not the best way to make it better. In my opinion, HB would be greatly improved if only one thing was changed: make it hit all adjacent targets to you instead of all adjacent foes to your target. Cyclone axe is like this, and it allows you to hit enemies behind you and in front of you, but HB only allows you to hit those in front of you and people by them. This usually means only 1-2 targets where cyclone gets 2+ almost every time.

Let's compare CA vs. HB over a 16 second time period. HB will hit at 0, 8, and 16 seconds (not counting for swing times). In this time you will spend 15 energy, and will hit a total of 6 times (plus more per foe by your target).

CA will hit at 0, 4, 8, 12, and 16 seconds (again, not counting for swing times). In this time you will spend 25 energy, and will hit a total of 5 times (plus more per foe by you). Also, you will strike for an additional 50 dmg at lvl 12 axe mastery.

From this comparison, we can see that you spend an additional 10 energy in 16 seconds by using CA (though you do save your elite).

If you are only attacking one target with CA, you hit 0 extra times, but you do +50 dmg to the target. Against one target, HB will hit 3 extra times with no bonus to dmg. In this case, HB will do slightly more dmg unless you are attacking someone with high armor.

With 2 targets, both in front, HB hits 6 extra times with no bonus to dmg, and CA hits 5 extra times for +100 dmg. Again, HB will most likely do slightly more dmg unless you are attacking someone with high armor.

If you have one target in front and one in back, HB hits 3 extra times with no bonus to dmg, but CA hits 5 extra times for +100 dmg. In this case, CA wins hands down.

My suggestion is that HB remains as an elite, but it is changed to target all surrounding you instead of your target. HB will then become a better adrenaline charging attack, will still do good damage, and will still save energy over CA. Also, a small bonus to dmg or armor penetration couldn't hurt it (like the one CA has). As it stands, sword attacks seem to be quite a bit inferior to axe, as there are only 2 hard-hitting attacks - final thrust & Galrath's - both of which take high adrenaline levels to use, compared to axes 3 or 4 spike dmg attacks (it is harder to compare to hammer, as that is a totally different world).

I would like to hear your opinions on what you think about swords/HB... I am still searching for a good sword build.

Good luck

I agree, I honestly don't want to see CA nerfed. However, making HB hit adjacent targets like CA would make it more useful, but make them the same, lowering the uniqueness of the two weapons.
I like the examples you presented, but I feel that HB's Elite status isn't legitimized by the fact you use less energy. Plus, in PvE, there are too many more times where CA is more effective than HB [they're both pretty bad in PvP].
The example in attack types is a good point. Sword warriors could use another damage attack or two, as PvP has quickly learned condition removal, especially with all those Frag/Virulence builds around.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OverlordTyrael

I also think the lack of a high damage sword elite is problematic. Seriously, while axe users have Eviscerate and Cleave, sword's stuck with HB? I really can't think of any sword elite that's actually useful in the current metagame. The only reason we see sword users is because swords do more damage than axes do when you AREN'T using elites, and therefore, the sword users can bring along other elites and still do decent damage. I still feel that although sword is supposedly the "multipurpose weapon," a high damage sword build should be possible.

The fact that the only Sword Elite is considered one of the worst in the game is pretty bad. Could you please expand on that "swords do more damage than axes when you AREN'T using elites;" often, I see it the other way around due to Cyclone Axe's non-Elite status.
High damage sword builds were possible when HB wasn't Elite, like IW, Flourish, and anyone using Conjure or Strength of Honor. Sadly, this is no longer the case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knight of Eternal Darknes

my brother has found that hundred blades is a very very useful skill to use with the right setup, when your in pvp theres usually a lot of people where your attacking someone, so you use hundred blades and while theres people around you, most of your skills are recharged, where as axe each axe skill is 6+adreneline for each one that is useful where as sword is in the low 4-5's and have a high min dmg, 13 strength, 16 into sword with all sword dmg skills makes you do more dmg then you actually would think of doing, sure axe have +6max dmg but it also only has 6 min dmg as max, axe is easier to use but with the right sword setup it can be better then a axe warrior in dmg output, but axe i think is better overall, high enough dmg and add in some stances, and bring wild blow for the extreme stance warriors/rangers/IW mesmers

I would love for you to post a Sword build that can outdamage a W/Mo SoH Eviscerate build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judas Paladin

quick fix. make hundred blades non elite and easier to get ( buyable )
or make it so hundred blades acts more as CA
and add another AoE attack for swords, possibly elite

my proposed FUN solution! :

add in another sword elite, something along the lines of a swordsmanship stance. Yes as tyrael said the sword should be the multipurpose weapon, i believe one of the purposes of the sword should be to block attacks ( like a fencer can ), i'd find it much harder to believe you could block attacks with an axe or *laugh* a hammer with much ease and success. So i'd say add in either a nice skill ( low cooldown and VERY low adrenaline cost say like 2-3 strikes only to make it ELITE status ) like riposte/deadly riposte but perhaps more effective somehow. OR add in a long lasting ( like shield stance duration ) swordsmanship STANCE which requires you to be wielding a sword to use, something similar to gladiator's defense in a way but longer lasting. I believe swords have lower damage and worse all around skills for a single reason, which is a sword warriors defensive ability with riposte/deadly riposte, etc. And I hope anet works on this.

This would give sword wielders an edge, even with the lack of an AoE attack you wouldnt have to put any points into tactics ( although i don't suggest that) to have a stance and could beef up your strength to be more all around thus opening up more posibilities for the " versatile " sword warrior.

That's the quick fix. However, I do believe it needs the energy raise to make it balanced with Cyclone Axe as a non-Elite.
Unless my memory fails me, Riposte and Deadly Riposte were once Sword-only skills tied to Tactics. To be honest, I would love it if they were once again made Sword skills, but tied to Swordsmanship.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Everous

Yeah, thats what it used to be. Hundred Blades was non-elite and did 75% damage with each strike. Anet made it elite and removed the weapon damage...apparently because people kept comboing it with Illusionary Weaponry and Conjures.

At the time I protested, and did some quick maths (perhaps flawed, I don't recall) showing even with Illusionary Weaponry the extra damage of one more attacks every 8 seconds isn't all that hot (5 more DPS? OH NOES?!?!). Nobody listened. I got the usual fustrating answer of "it looks so cool I'd use it anyway"...well gee...thanks. Conjures meanwhile have been nerfed...lots.

Considering a Dev actively told me to go and use cyclone axe instead...I really really don't think they want to change it.

The issue with HB and IW was not the damage but the AoE. Nothing really beats an 80dmg AoE nuke every 8s for 5e.
Wow, a dev told you that? Swords got owned...

Quote:

Originally Posted by schutz

Why change CA, its only useful for farming thats all its a terrible skill otherwise and then comparing a axe to a sword is stupid especially as axes are smaller easier to manouver with whereas swords are long and you cant go spinning in circles, i know that seems stupid but there trying realism

Lolol, you're telling someone who fences, takes kendo, and LARPs every once in a while that swords are less maneuverable than axes? Show me a real axe attack that guarentees a hit on every adjacent enemy or a sword attack that hits everyone within its reach twice in one swing.

Thank you for you comments. Please continue to post constructive criticism and comments.

KuTeBaka · Sep 24, 2005, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slade xTekno

Lolol, you're telling someone who fences, takes kendo, and LARPs every once in a while that swords are less maneuverable than axes? Show me a real axe attack that guarentees a hit on every adjacent enemy or a sword attack that hits everyone within its reach twice in one swing.

sorta off topic, but swinging a sword around just doesnt seem as good as swinging an axe around in a circle.

Hanuman li Tosh · Sep 24, 2005, 07:23 PM // 19:23

uh, its not the game thats imbalanced its the flavor of the month. as far as cyclone axe being overpowered, its only overpowered against ppl who stand in it.

JYX · Sep 24, 2005, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slade xTekno

The issue with HB and IW was not the damage but the AoE. Nothing really beats an 80dmg AoE nuke every 8s for 5e.
Wow, a dev told you that? Swords got owned...

80dmg isn't much. In PvE theres just much huger badder nukes to put out (dual meteor shower + firestorm anyone?) or you could do glyph+firestorm for 5 energy. In PvP you got 2 problems, one that its not really AoE, its adjacent, which means the area is really really small. Also that fireball/chain lightning from an ele does better, costs more, but then again they have more energy to give.

Plus in an IW build the windfall of adrenaline and the extra energy from the zealous mod is negated due to the sword not actually contacting. Overall I didn't see a problem then, and I still don't see one now.

benmanhaha · Sep 24, 2005, 08:40 PM // 20:40

I agree that CA might be a little overpowerful but only when used in the correct situation. But you cant really ask for a non-elite skill to be made elite at this point. That would throw way to many people off.

Oryaka Drake · Sep 24, 2005, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Stop Comparing Apples And Oranges Please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Judas Paladin · Sep 25, 2005, 05:43 AM // 05:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oryaka Drake

Stop Comparing Apples And Oranges Please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why not? They are different and in some people's opinion apples are better than oranges!...

But back to the topic, I was never around when HUNdred Blades was non elite and I didn't know that it was used with IW and Conjure, ( which by the way, as I speak now, doesnt seem all that overpowered at all ) but when i think about it now it wouldn't be too overpowered either, plus a warrior would have mana to worry about as well with HB costing energy and IW costing energy and conjure costing energy. I'm sure people got over this energy problem considering this build WAS in fact used in the past, but it seems like a major obstacle to me. Maybe I'm just not thinking too clearly tonight, but is HB the only swords elite? If so, why..?

NatalieD · Sep 25, 2005, 06:38 AM // 06:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judas Paladin

But back to the topic, I was never around when HUNdred Blades was non elite and I didn't know that it was used with IW and Conjure, ( which by the way, as I speak now, doesnt seem all that overpowered at all ) but when i think about it now it wouldn't be too overpowered either, plus a warrior would have mana to worry about as well with HB costing energy and IW costing energy and conjure costing energy.

IW is usually used on Me/W, not W/Me, so energy is no problem.

GreatLich · Sep 25, 2005, 06:56 AM // 06:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by KuTeBaka

sorta off topic, but swinging a sword around just doesnt seem as good as swinging an axe around in a circle.

It doesn't... until you would hit someone with the axe... axes have a much smaller cutting edge compared to a sword. I could see a sword cutting someone and continue through to the next victim, due to it's design. An Axe however, when you hit someone it could get stuck on that victim for it's small cutting edge. It's a case of "hacking" vs "slashing"... I think a slashing tool (sword) would function better in a "cyclone attack" style then a hacking tool (axe).

Someone more knowledgable should correct me: but axes were more often used as offhand weapons then primary... the fact that GW has Axes pegged a single handed weapons is a bit off IMHO, especially as primary weapons...