Curse

free4all · Dec 13, 2005, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Before I dive into details, I will first state that I am neutral on this subject. I would also like to point out modestly that I do have a high rank, so do not see this is a post about a low rank person complaining about the rank system. I do not feel strongly towards a reset, nor am I opposed to one. Here's the argument.

First off, let's define rank. Rank is a measure of how many games you have won in the ToPK. That does not mean you are skillful; it just means you have won. Being so, rank is just a facilitator for forming a group. All it does is help you find someone to join your group that has a probability of being intelligent and able to play his/her role well.

So, you say, "I gained my rank 9, you can't reset all that progress!" Well, why not? I myself wouldn't mind a reset back to rank 0 after the balance of a few skills (i.e. after certain skills are changed so they don't provide a quick self-invite rank farming build) So I might not be able to flash my tiger, that's ok. The whole reason behind getting a high rank isn't to get some silly emote (maybe to a select few it is, but those are the ones you usually don't want in your group). It is safe to assume that any competant player that has achieved a high rank (let's say r7+) will have a fairly large friend's list or will be on a lot of group leader's list. That means that any competant player will be asked to join groups, therefore eliminating that players need to have to "spam" "rank ## looking for group". I am not by any means equating high rank to high skill, nor am I saying the two have no correlation. So, if the rank system for all players was reset, good players would not have a problem finding groups since they don't usually mingle with PUG teams anyways. Putting this in context, if I were to lose all my rank tomorrow, I could still find a very good group with a high probability of winning and holding the halls because I have proven myself competant to my group leader, and therefore rank ceases to matter.

I do not want to make the generalization that lower rank players are bad players, so I will focus on the "unexperienced" or "skill lacking" players in this paragraph. We've all seen it in the districts. "Skill lacking" players are spamming "Rank ## looking for group", hoping to get into some pick up group that will judge skill based on rank. It's obvious these players repeat the same mistakes over and over, but somehow get a high rank (likely because of certain fame farming builds). The reason they have to find a pick up group is because they are not seen as good enough (and therefore generally aren't) to be on someone's list of reliable, capable players. Therefore, resetting the rank will do nothing to harm this category of players since they will continue to spam their message, looking for a pick up group. It will not make them seem any less competant than the person next to them spamming the same thing if they are both rank 0. They will still be able to get into lower-quality groups that accept people based on a number.

From the point of a party leader. You might say, "Hey, don't reset the rank system! Then I would have no way to form a (good) group!" In response to that, I would have to say that if you are a good leader that people want to play with, people will add you to their friend's lists, and you will add good players to your friend's list. The whole idea I am trying to get across is that high quality PvP is formed from players you know are good, unlike rank initiated pick up groups, which only leaves you in a "this player could be good" situation. Seeing that high quality groups are generally not formed from a random pick up group, a reset of the rank system will not harm high quality groups.

My main thesis: Even with a rank reset, things will, for the most part, remain the same. Good players will continue to form their groups using players on the friend's list known to be skills. Less skilled players will still be able to find groups, and just like today, the PUGs shouldn't be expected to be really good. One key to success is playing with people whose playstyles are familiar to you, or that you get along with. With a PUG, it's possible that there be people you do not like, and therefore that impedes the group. Resetting the rank system would not change this. If you want high quality PvP, you aren't going to want to be joining a lot of PUGs. If you want quick PvP, you are going to want to join a PUG. Seeing as rank only faciliates the group leader to guess which players are good, the overall skill level of these groups will remain the same.

Please do not reply and tell me that I'm wrong in every way unless you have read my whole message, and can show me which parts of my argument are flawed. I have humility, and I will admit flawed thinking if you can point it out to me. Enough of this talk, please provide your input. Please keep in mind I am not looking for the "/signed" or "/notsigned" messages that appear so frequently in this forum. I am looking for intelligent, well thought-out responses. Please do not respond if all you are going to say is "No, do not reset the rank system". Please explain why you feel that way.

Yichi · Dec 13, 2005, 09:50 PM // 21:50

I have a good friends list and a compitent guild that i could earn y rank back again if they reset it, thats not the issue. I dont want the rank system reset due to the fact of the time involved that it took to get my rank.

People can IWAY to r6 (seen it happen with a friend) in about 2 weeks if they are dedicated to getting their wolf that bad. does that mean that they are a good player because they are r6 with IWAY? anyone that doesnt "farm" fame and runs a build that takes more time and skill and you fight and earn your way up to r6, those are the people that will have a problem with reseting the fame. Some of the top ranked people in this game, i knwo for a fact, would quit if that happened due to the time and effort the yhave put into earnign their rank.

also how would this help a new player? they wont have the friends list or the contacts to be able to earn rank, so in a month or two, well be having this same argument.

free4all · Dec 13, 2005, 09:58 PM // 21:58

But Rank is just a facilitation to find a group. Yes it's true you spent time getting your rank, but think of it as time spent finding a good group. Also, good groups usually have a wide "tree" of players. IE, you are forming a group, but you have 7/8, but you have no one else online that can play the role you need . One of the members in the group can ask one of their skilled friends to join your group. Once again the generic (rank = skill) system is bypassed. Of course, you trust a player (that you know is skilled) not to bring a crap player into your group. You don't need to bother to ask the player his rank, because hey, a skilled person says he is skilled. That's good enough. Once you have found a good group of people to play with, why does fame/rank have any meaning at all? A silly emote means nothing to me, but it seems that it means something to you, MistressYichi. I don't mean to sound condescending on this matter. I guess one of the expected reponses is "But I want to keep my emote".

Epinephrine · Dec 13, 2005, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

Some of the top ranked people in this game, i knwo for a fact, would quit if that happened due to the time and effort the yhave put into earnign their rank.

Lol. Why would anyone care? It's an emote. I don't think it matters one bit whether it's reset or not, the people who want it will farm it, those who could care less will just play. Anyone with a few neurons to rub together will realise that it isn't in anyway a true descriptor of skill, as you could play a toal of 40 matches and win each one thanks to your brilliant skill and be ranked behind the guy who plays 10,000 games and wins less than a half percent of them (that's an exagerration to make a point {reductio ad absurdum} - I doubt anyone will play 10,000 and only win 50, but it's possible...)

It doesn't take much thinking to realise that some people prefer tactical play in GvG, or don't like waiting an hour for a team to form up so play the faster TA format for example. These players are fine. It doesn't take a genius to figure out tombs maps, if you don't know them by rank 2 you aren't very swift. To say that a rank 6 player who ran a fotm (like a warrior that got smited off of...) is any better than a rannk 0 player with 100 GvG wins under his belt is ludicrous. Rank just doesn't matter. For tsanity's sake, just ask people what the plan to bring, why they chose a skill or two and watch them in the first battle. You can tell pretty quickly if they know their stuff.

mortalis doleo · Dec 13, 2005, 10:14 PM // 22:14

this issue has a lot to do with pride...

the real hard-core PvP players (rank 11... 12 soon?) have spent a long amount of time gaining fame and rank. they have pretty much earned the right to say they are good players.
yes, they could form groups with people they know and are in thier friend's list, but they should still be able to show off that soon to be pheonix.
i seems unfair that they will now be just like people new to the game.
and i get your point about still being in great groups and what not, but only few people look at it that way...
to most people, rank is a goal.
i dont think it's cool to those people, who have spend a lot of time playing PvP. rank is like a bonus to them, a bonus that shouldn't just be taken away...

and btw... i reached rank 3 today!!!!!!! dont take my DEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!

ImBobNewbie · Dec 13, 2005, 10:17 PM // 22:17

To the poster:

what rank are you? how long have you been playing? what guild are you in?

Anyway, why would ANet actually consider resetting fame? If they reset fame, why not gold, faction, skills, etc. It's pointless to arbitrarily wipe out whatever people have worked to accumulate.

IF they did decide to do this, it would just be a huge advantage to people in my situation. I am currently in NES, a rank 7-10 guild. With our large member base, we'd never have to pick up random pugs. For all other players, including high ranked players who don't have a reliable / quick way to form teams, it will be a problem.

Basically, in a week or two my guild members would all hit rank 6 again while most others would struggle to get 100 fame. Advantageous for us, but still pointless.

Yichi · Dec 13, 2005, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by free4all

A silly emote means nothing to me, but it seems that it means something to you, MistressYichi. I don't mean to sound condescending on this matter. I guess one of the expected reponses is "But I want to keep my emote".

I could care less abotu my emote, otherwie id have one higher than what i currently have, but i am proud of the fact that i have one and could get a higher one if i so chose too. But for the peopel that havent pvp'd much and dont have that list of peopel that they know, it will not help anyone one bit, but would give advantage to those that do. it wouldnt change anythign than what we have now, where the people who do have those connections and list to chose from, will still be atop the tombs rank, and the rest will fall behind. so again in a few months well be having this same conversation.

free4all · Dec 13, 2005, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImBobNewbie

To the poster:

what rank are you? how long have you been playing? what guild are you in?

My rank is irrelevant to this argument. Please re-read my post. Either way, the answer to your question is in the first few sentences of my post, AND if you read all of what I'm saying, including my examples, it is pretty easy to discern the general range. I don't see how my personal rank could affect the argument you make though.

I have been playing since release.

As for my guild, that also has nothing to do with this. If you have any more relevant questions for me, please feel free to ask me.

EDIT: Yichi posted while I was responding to ImBobNewbie..so:

@Yichi:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

But for the peopel that havent pvp'd much and dont have that list of peopel that they know, it will not help anyone one bit, but would give advantage to those that do. it wouldnt change anythign than what we have now, where the people who do have those connections and list to chose from, will still be atop the tombs rank, and the rest will fall behind. so again in a few months well be having this same conversation.

You say that the new PvPers will not be helped by this. But they will. There are many rank 3/6 players that are absolute crap, and being so, they try to join any pick up group they can find. Of course, bad leaders are going to take these players solely because they are rank 3/6 and then realize they are crap when their team is losing because of it.
This takes away the chance of a new player who isn't chosen just because of their Rank. If everyone is rank 0, choosing a PUG will be less selective and easier for newer players to get into.

Though I must admit, you are correct in your assessment of "in a few months, we'll be having this same conversation". That is, if the tactics stay the same. Sure, if certain skills are left unbalanced (let's not turn this into a debate over current FoTM), things will be the same. It will be like cutting your hair--it will just grow back and have the same situation at a different time. If the rank system isreset and the skills arecompletely re-balanced, there is a good chance that when the time comes, the rank 6+ players will be competant, not just having got their rank through a silly no-brainer build. This will help rank do it's intended purpose--give a means of judging a player's skill (not 100% accurate, of course) and help PUGs form.

Navaros · Dec 13, 2005, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Not signed and HELL NO!

You wanna flush several hundred/thousands of hours of other players' time and energy down the toilet just because you are jealous of their good rank? No way.

Worst idea ever.

If they ever reset rank then I personally would post that GW is the worst game ever made on every forum known to mankind, as would legions of others.

darkdragon99 · Dec 13, 2005, 10:59 PM // 22:59

don't reset the ranks remove them all they do is piss off 80% of the players who can't get in a freaking group to gain rank to be picked in the freaking first place it's freaking bullshit

free4all · Dec 13, 2005, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

Not signed and HELL NO!

You wanna flush several hundred/thousands of hours of other players' time and energy down the toilet just because you are jealous of their good rank? No way.

Worst idea ever.

If they ever reset rank then I personally would post that GW is the worst game ever made on every forum known to mankind, as would legions of others.

In response to you accusing me of being jealous of other players ranks, that is not true. You are incorrect in your evaluation, and I would recommend you re-read my post thoroughly before responding again. I'll even be nice enough to show you the few couple sentences you seem to have either not comprehended or failed to read.

Quote:

Originally Posted by free4all

Before I dive into details, I will first state that I am neutral on this subject. I would also like to point out modestly that I do have a high rank, so do not see this is a post about a low rank person complaining about the rank system.

As a reminder:

Quote:

Originally Posted by free4all

I am looking for intelligent, well thought-out responses.

darkMishkin · Dec 14, 2005, 12:11 AM // 00:11

One thing, you say 'reset', you mean set everyone's fame back to zero? What for? Rank is a stupid statistic, therefore starting it a second time is even more stupid than starting it the first time.

Either propose a new system, ie a ratio wins:losses, or suggest they scrap the whole thing. A reset is ridiculous.

Kai Nui · Dec 14, 2005, 12:26 AM // 00:26

If it is reset, players can still win and not have skill according to what you've stated. Personally I think that people would be losing much time and progress. Adjustments will still be made to the game when people discover them. Just like how the 55 Monk was reduced, things like this will still happen and then what? another reset? I think not.

Navaros · Dec 14, 2005, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by free4all

In response to you accusing me of being jealous of other players ranks, that is not true. You are incorrect in your evaluation, and I would recommend you re-read my post thoroughly before responding again. I'll even be nice enough to show you the few couple sentences you seem to have either not comprehended or failed to read.

As a reminder:

My post was indeed intelligent and well-thought out. Do not mistake anger at the outrageousness, ludicrousity, and gall of your suggestion with my post not being well thought-out.

As for you saying you are high rank and therefore not jealous, seeing as you will not post your in game name or what Guild you are with, there is no reason to believe that that is a credible statement on your part.

Kai Nui · Dec 14, 2005, 12:50 AM // 00:50

You could have simply asked him to prove it to you in game, if he refused, then I'd accept it, but the way you've done it is falsely. I also think Free4all supports his claims with the fact that he is competent enough to write out this forum post in the first place.

free4all · Dec 14, 2005, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

My post was indeed intelligent and well-thought out. Do not mistake anger at the outrageousness, ludicrousity, and gall of your suggestion with my post not being well thought-out.

As for you saying you are high rank and therefore not jealous, seeing as you will not post your in game name or what Guild you are with, there is no reason to believe that that is a credible statement on your part.

Navaros: I am not here to wage an insignificant quarrel with you or any other forum member. I appreciate your interest in the topic, and I would appreciate if you would just drop this so we can stay on-topic with this discussion. I am not going to ferverently attempt to prove that I am an experienced player who just so happens to be high-ranked. I have already stated it. Even so, the only reason I stated that I was high ranked was an attempt to prevent such petty squabbles such as these, claiming I am just jealous of high rank players. My rank has nothing to do with the actual topic, so please, unless you want to PM me to talk about it, drop it.

Dzan · Dec 14, 2005, 01:00 AM // 01:00

If you are mad about people fame farming and forming elitist groups to get rank, imagine how much worse it would be if they reset ranks and for a month everyone ran IWAY constantly to get back where they were.

free4all · Dec 14, 2005, 01:13 AM // 01:13

I don't see where you get a feeling of anger from my thread. Anyways, you said this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

If you are mad about people fame farming and forming elitist groups to get rank, imagine how much worse it would be if they reset ranks and for a month everyone ran IWAY constantly to get back where they were.

After I had already posted this at this earlier post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by free4all

Though I must admit, you are correct in your assessment of "in a few months, we'll be having this same conversation". That is, if the tactics stay the same. Sure, if certain skills are left unbalanced (let's not turn this into a debate over current FoTM), things will be the same. It will be like cutting your hair--it will just grow back and have the same situation at a different time. If the rank system isreset and the skills arecompletely re-balanced...

I believe I have already covered that aspect of it.

Hannibel · Dec 14, 2005, 01:35 AM // 01:35

/not signed

stupid idea, it's fine as is taking away the fame and rank of people that have earned there fame isn't a good idea at all, this isn't even really an improvement its more of a punishment for not allowing people that are new to tombs into our groups, there's plenty of people in tombs willing to start up pug groups, there's guilds always recruiting in various website forums for up and coming people that are starting to get into pvp, free4all if your really so intersted in helping people out by getting fame/rank for them, then you do it yourself, go start up your own guild like XoO or something.

glenn_rolfe · Dec 14, 2005, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Under this logic of the original post Anet should delete everyone's PvE character and make them mission again, and farm ectos and shards all over again for their fissure armour. Take away everything that people have earn't to bring them back to the level of people who haven't earn't it.

Look it's ridiculous. If Anet reset everyone to fame 0, people would quit and the game would die. Why should everything people have earn't been taken away from them because other people can't earn it themselves.

It's not just a silly emote, it's a sense of achievement and accomplishment for yourself. It gives you another goal in tombs besides holding halls. It in fact is a well designed system for maintaining the population in tombs, as is UW and FOW and fissure armour after the PvE missions are done for the RPG crowd. And instead of taking away from PvE players to maintain the population, they added to it by bringing in Sorrow's Furnace. And perhaps if the tombs crowd dwindles Anet could add in extra maps.

This is tombs, not GvG.

Look for reasons why you can't achieve the level yourself and find an answer, as did the rest of us.

I for one love tombs the way it is, and believe the rank reward system is an excellent method for keeping people in the game. And obviously so does Anet or they wouldn't have added an R12 emote.

END OF THREAD