Curse

Malchior Devenholm · Dec 13, 2005, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Originally posted by SaintGreg...

Quote:

0
30
75

would not seriously affect anyone, and it would make people want to consider major runes for PvP, and even in PvE for reasons other than the cost of sups. Right now the only time you might consider a major in pvp, is if you needed every last bit of hp you could scrounge (in which case all minors would probably make more sense).

Would agree with you about the 0, 30, 75 except when combined with enough mods-30's irrelevent! Think about it, even a minor vigor entirely cancels out a 30, and what if a person had sup vigor? +20 hp, so +2 an attribute with the major, and still +20 hp allows for another major with not much penalty. (-10 penalty) Then if combined with a couple of health mods (say the standard high health mods on shields) even more health is gained while a sufficient boost of +2 remains on 2 attributes. Heck, even someone as varifying as an elementalist, ranger, or monk might find it possible to have 4 major runes on EVERY piece of their armor for just 120 penalty total. Seems bad-now factor sup vig on the last piece of armor & just 1 perfect health mod, the penalty to raise the 4 attributes by +2 is just -40 health (then consider just a few more health mods to make a small or even no penalty at all) True the person might just have around 450-480 health, but if it's a caster or a defensive trapping ranger it ain't that big of deal since one fires from the back and the other can't be touched with blind and stuff--now they boast +2 in all of their attributes for little or no penalty.

Not dissing you in any way dude

, just saying 40 (maybe 35 penalty) is the way to go.

glenn_rolfe · Dec 13, 2005, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghezbora

I agree majors need to be un-sucked. In general, the population uses minors (because they have no penalty) or superiors (because the cost/benefit ratio is superior to majors). Whether you accept the health loss or not, the vast majority think major runes are trash -- if you don't believe me, ask the rune trader.

/signed

In PvP most good offensive trapper builds would run a superior in expertise and a major in wildenerness with the sup vigor of course and +energy + health on their staff

ghezbora · Dec 13, 2005, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malchior Devenholm

Would agree with you about the 0, 30, 75 except when combined with enough mods-30's irrelevent!

This misses something important -- opportunity cost. -30 hp is still -30 hp whether or not you then cancel it out with a +30 hp weapon mod.

I agree with the intent of your post though, 30 is probably too low. 40 seems like a good number to me.

ghezbora · Dec 13, 2005, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenn_rolfe

In PvP most good offensive trapper builds would run a superior in expertise and a major in wildenerness with the sup vigor of course and +energy + health on their staff

Congrats, you found an exception. But I'm still right -- the vast majority think major runes are trash. As evidenced by the fact that minor runes are easier to get and yet command a higher price.

Del12 · Dec 13, 2005, 10:32 PM // 22:32

/signed, I never use majors. It's always superior or minor.

eur0b0y69 · Dec 13, 2005, 10:45 PM // 22:45

I think if they modify something about the runes , many people wont like it. Major runes will be more expensive than Superior, and you would be farming Major runes and not superior? I do not want to diss anyone just by saying my opinion. Its Anet choice in modifying tthe runes not mine, but it will affect many people. Just think about it.

/not signed

Kai Nui · Dec 14, 2005, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Minors = -0
Majors = -25
Superior = -50

That'd make sense.

glenn_rolfe · Dec 14, 2005, 01:09 AM // 01:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kai Nui

Minors = -0
Majors = -25
Superior = -50

That'd make sense.

Not it wouldn't because that would destroy spike builds in PvP and totally unbalance the game.

Greygon · Dec 14, 2005, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Self Destruct

Greygon, how exactly would you justify Anet wasting their time and pissing off 90% of their customers to remove an element from the game that is totally optional and has no detremental effects on anyone? The question is not how common their usage is (I imagine much moreso than you think) or their monetary value, but what exactly warrants their removal? If using a major gave a player an unfair advantage, then an argument for removing them would be understandable. But they do not create an unbalance. Removing them would be pointless.

However, I will agree with you that extracting a major rune from gold armor is bs and this should have been fixed a long time ago.

I dunno SD... I think that they aren't used that much with the exception or Vig and Absorb... I also think that they cause PvP players (which I am not) to spend a LOT more time unlocking runes... If they don't take them out they really need to do something to modify them so they are at least worthy of considering. I do know that some people use them, but it seems that they are only used to "get by" until a Superior can be found. Maybe I am wrong... and it seems that many feel I am, but I still think they are a real waste.

Malchior Devenholm · Dec 14, 2005, 04:41 AM // 04:41

They have so much potential though...in reply to my earlier post -30 isn't quite irrelevent, just easily removed to put in lamest terms

Seriously, how awesome would it be to boost all the attributes of ur build by +2---seems overpowering unless major vigor is set to 35-40 hp where you would just be cancelling the affect of the runes instead of gaining health, leaving a person with around 450-480 as i specified earlier. Such a sacrifice won't be used too often but it will provide variety.

Come on Anet, drop major vigor to make it more of a contender in the rune race

Phades · Dec 14, 2005, 07:23 AM // 07:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malchior Devenholm

Would agree with you about the 0, 30, 75 except when combined with enough mods-30's irrelevent! Think about it, even a minor vigor entirely cancels out a 30, and what if a person had sup vigor? +20 hp, so +2 an attribute with the major, and still +20 hp allows for another major with not much penalty. (-10 penalty) Then if combined with a couple of health mods (say the standard high health mods on shields) even more health is gained while a sufficient boost of +2 remains on 2 attributes. Heck, even someone as varifying as an elementalist, ranger, or monk might find it possible to have 4 major runes on EVERY piece of their armor for just 120 penalty total.

The more split up you are the weaker your build is. The only time something like this would be useful, is if you had an unlimited number of skill slots and eliete choices to bring with you. In the event of just 2 mods used for a positive hp gain, you still are not considering the attribute point cost to elevate the traits to similar levels that the +4 mod gives with the superior/hat combinations provide. Many professions such as warrior or elementalist, do not need or even want to use more than one (non primary) attribute at the same time at high levels. The reasoning is you either have to switch weapons to take advantage of it, wasting time, or you are doing less damage over all while wasting skill bar space. Its really only rangers that are looking for a target of 14 skill and only for expertise. The multiple major situation doesn't really benefit anyone else. 13 is a cutoff point for divine favor and healing prayres, which can be achieved through a superior on the 10 attribute skill, while wearing a helm and a minor on the 11 attribute skill. You can go higher than this, but that is the last +4 bump it has.

glountz · Dec 14, 2005, 07:46 AM // 07:46

My 2 cents

First, /signed with Minor=0 , Major=-25, Superior=-50

2) If PVP spike build would be destroyed, fine. More gameplay and more strategies to find. Not always the same boring IWAY/Air Ele spike build. When will I see Water elementalist build in PVP? I have yet to wait.

3)A +3 (-75)does not equal two +2 (-50*2).
Try some maths.
I want to raise two attributes to 13.
I want to optimize my build with runes so I can spare some points and/or some Hp.
Two options:
*A superior (+3) and a minor (+1) for -75hp
I need 12+1 for the first attribute and 10+3 for the second.
So 97+61 in total=158 attributes points.
* Two Major (+2) for -100 hp.
Need the two attributes at 11. To raise to 11 both I need 77*2=154 Attributes points.

Let's see.... 154 attributes points for -100 hp or 158 for -75hp? You still not see why nobody choose the first solution?

4)In addition, Superior is THE ONLY WAY to max out an attribute. Major can't. That's why they are so precious. You would make the majors to -0 hp that there would be superior runes sold every day!
Warriors and rangers can rely on their equipment to take out ennemies and do damage. They don't need superior. But each spellcaster class need this to do the best they can.
An elementalist is by far more effective at 16 Air 13 Energy Storage than at, say, 13 Air 13 Earth 12 Energy storage. It's even more true in PVP, where each member has to be really good in it's purpose, not to be a jack-all-trade. It's good only for solo-play (which isn't effective in PVP anyway).
And remember, there is only EIGHT SKILL SLOTS. It's nonsense to raise 3 or more attributes, unless you have a very special combination of skill (I have yet to see an effective skillbar with skills from 4 attributes).

Mr. Self Destruct · Dec 14, 2005, 10:33 AM // 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greygon

I dunno SD... I think that they aren't used that much with the exception or Vig and Absorb... I also think that they cause PvP players (which I am not) to spend a LOT more time unlocking runes... If they don't take them out they really need to do something to modify them so they are at least worthy of considering. I do know that some people use them, but it seems that they are only used to "get by" until a Superior can be found. Maybe I am wrong... and it seems that many feel I am, but I still think they are a real waste.

I personally have more than enough money to buy all the superiors i would need and i have all the superior runes unlocked for pvp, but with a few exceptions i primarily use majors. Thats just me tho. If nothing else, majors should not be removed simply for the reason you stated; to provide a stopgap between minors and superiors. As for majors being buffed, i'm all for it. Reducing the health penalty a little wouldnt bother me at all and clearly i'm not the only one who feels this way. Anet seems to be pretty in-tune with the player community and i hope this is something they will consider implementing.

Gem · Dec 14, 2005, 01:23 PM // 13:23

Someone should maby create a poll for this. Here is my suggestion for the poll:

Would you like to change the health penalties of runes?

1) Change to 0/-25/-75
2) Change to 0/-37/-75
3) Change to 0/-25/-50
4) Change to -15/-45/-75
5) Change to other (please post your suggestion)
6) Keep the old 0/-50/-75 penalties.

eur0b0y69 · Dec 14, 2005, 08:58 PM // 20:58

i like the way they are
#6

Mordakai · Dec 14, 2005, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

My 2 cents

First, /signed with Minor=0 , Major=-25, Superior=-50

2) If PVP spike build would be destroyed, fine. More gameplay and more strategies to find. Not always the same boring IWAY/Air Ele spike build. When will I see Water elementalist build in PVP? I have yet to wait.

3)A +3 (-75)does not equal two +2 (-50*2).
Try some maths.
I want to raise two attributes to 13.
I want to optimize my build with runes so I can spare some points and/or some Hp.
Two options:
*A superior (+3) and a minor (+1) for -75hp
I need 12+1 for the first attribute and 10+3 for the second.
So 97+61 in total=158 attributes points.
* Two Major (+2) for -100 hp.
Need the two attributes at 11. To raise to 11 both I need 77*2=154 Attributes points.

Let's see.... 154 attributes points for -100 hp or 158 for -75hp? You still not see why nobody choose the first solution?

4)In addition, Superior is THE ONLY WAY to max out an attribute. Major can't. That's why they are so precious. You would make the majors to -0 hp that there would be superior runes sold every day!
Warriors and rangers can rely on their equipment to take out ennemies and do damage. They don't need superior. But each spellcaster class need this to do the best they can.
An elementalist is by far more effective at 16 Air 13 Energy Storage than at, say, 13 Air 13 Earth 12 Energy storage. It's even more true in PVP, where each member has to be really good in it's purpose, not to be a jack-all-trade. It's good only for solo-play (which isn't effective in PVP anyway).
And remember, there is only EIGHT SKILL SLOTS. It's nonsense to raise 3 or more attributes, unless you have a very special combination of skill (I have yet to see an effective skillbar with skills from 4 attributes).

How much additional damage does a 16 in Fire vs a 15 in Fire do? Is it worth it?

What if you could get a 15 (12+1+2) and a 14 (12+2) instead of one 16 for less HP penalty?

Or a 16 (12+1+3) and a 14 (12+2) for even less HP penalty than now? (With a Sup and Maj Rune)

I see what you're saying about specialized builds, but surely going TWO attributes is not uncommon.

I'm going to change from my original stance, and say the Major should be reduced to -40 HP. That way, 2 Majors still cost more Health than 1 Sup, but it's a little more reasonable than -50 HP.

/signed with Major -40 HP.

Banaticus · Dec 15, 2005, 12:38 AM // 00:38

The hit point cost on Superiors is high enough that I spend the extra 2k to get another pair of gauntlets. So, I'll have the "Healing" gauntlets and the "Protection" gauntlets for one character. Another character will have "Earth" gauntlets and "Fire" gauntlets.

Then I fill up the rest of the spaces with minor runes because I get a benefit and pay no penalty (in HP, anyway, although I do pay monetarily). If, at times, I have both a minor and a superior rune for some attribute, because of mixing and matching armor pieces, so what.

As other people have noted, there's no real need for major runes because either I'm going to take the extra -25 health to get an additional +1 to an attribute, or I'll just get a minor rune for a little benefit and no cost. Something in the current system should change and I'm all for lowering the health cost of major runes.

Chev of Hardass · Dec 15, 2005, 04:48 AM // 04:48

I was reading this post, looking for something good to say, then.......

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krazax

I used to think the same thing, because this leads to the reasoning of "What's wrong with giving players more HPs?" Because:
If players have more hps, they last longer -> If players last longer battles take longer. -> If battles take longer you need more strategy to win. -> If you need more strategy to win, the game would be more in synch with what Anet wants... right?

Yes... and a really big No.

When Yes? In PvP. It could be a lot more interesting... maybe. Either it would or matches would drag on and on and on.
When No? In PvE. Why? Because the game designers would need to completely rebalance the ENTIRE GAME. Lowering the HP cost of superior runes would lead to everyone using multiple superiors. This combined with more hps, results in DRAMATICLY more personal player power. Power over the computer more precisely.

Yeah so what, right? Let players be more powerful, that's good, we want that right?

Wrong again.

Why wrong?

If player power is dramaticaly more then it should be, you loose balance. A game that is too easy becomes boring at warp speed Mr. Scotty. That's bad. Bad bad bad bad.

Remember, mobs in the game don't use runes. They have their set HPs. So by allowing players to increase their hps, and at the same time their powers, you run into the same EXACT problem as allowing additional levels into the Guildwars Game. You loose balance. It would be as absurd as allowing vigor runes to stack. (Sure we'd all want that initially, but when we got bored even faster of the game because every zone became like killing Charr outside Ascalon as a level 20... you'd agree then.)

As it stands now, you can increase your personal power, but at the risk of increasing your death factor. That's balance.

Now, as for Major Attribute Runes being lowered. Yes, I agree with that and think it needs to be done. How much? I say reduce them so that they only reduce you by -40hps. This way 2 major's (+4 to attributes) costs -80 health. Where as +3 from a superior is still -75. Then if you think about it, you'd only be loosing an additional 5 hps for another skill point.

This would make for some real tuff decision calls by players and would put majors as desireable as superiors, and hopefully to ultimately spread that money around.

The nail got hit on the head full force. Even my argument that major should cost more health, when using two, than a superior. Frankly, if I had the chioce of three -25hp majors, and 1 -75hp superior, I would choose the three majors unless I was running a Warrior, or maybe a Ranger.

/signed to lower the health cost of major to 40 health to try and give them a use in the current game.

Carinae · Dec 15, 2005, 06:16 AM // 06:16

I vote 10/40/70

darkdragon99 · Dec 15, 2005, 06:20 AM // 06:20

no 1 app point is worth any hp that is y the minors lost 0 hp