Curse

ChoKILLate[FDG] · Dec 12, 2005, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Even if there is not a big cost difference I often prefer major over superior. The +1 to skill is not as good with the -25 to health. With the major, I can offset with things like enchantments.

I also prefer 2 majors (-100hp) vs 1 superior and definately over 2 superiors (-150hp) in most cases. For an ele, I will have one major energy storage, and one major rune in the element I am using. I put this rune in the corresponding headpiece, so I can switch them out as needed.

Phades · Dec 12, 2005, 09:16 PM // 21:16

The only thing that the relative cost shows from the rune traders, is how common they are as drops and how in demand they are for pve characters. Currently the attribute major runes really don't have any really value. Sure you could go +2, +2, +3 for a stat line of 1
2, 12, 14 (10, 12, 14 for using a secondary profession attribute line). But that would not net much benefit in many different builds, rangers come to mind as that setup being "desireable", but not much else. Also, the skill bar does not get biggger with the more attributes you have, so splitting up also makes the character the weaker overall, if you went 4+ attribute lines. 11, 11, 15, or similar splits also allow for more attribute points to be freed up for the secondary profession, creating combinations like 11, 10, 15, or 11, 14, 11 that the triple major runes can not create because of the amount of attribute points the superior rune saves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Sorry, I wasn't clearer in my post. I was speaking of NET bonuses:

+6 to your atts in General (ie, +2 for 3 different attributes).

This is MUCH BETTER for the price (-75 HP, for example), than the additional +1 you get from a Sup.

To put it even clearer, you could have 3 attributes at at least 12, or one at 16.

Which would you chose?

I would most certainly not choose the option that would cost me 120 hp to pull off that setup for the same reason why i would not choose to use two superior runes at the 150hp cost. Even so, you still get +1 more point going the superior route over the major rune route because you cant stack runes. The only way the majors could compete in that scenario, is if they didn't take a vigor rune and were playing a warrior or an elementalist, while also choosing to include rune bonuses to attribute lines they didnt use.

Unless major runes were discounted heavily since skill bar space, attribute points, and rune locations come at a premium there is no point to using them at all and just fill up data base space like all of the "less useful" skills do. Arguing theoretical hp shifting doesn't help the situation either, because HP are also a premium that can not be readily exchanged either. Things like vital blessing will get stripped, symbiosis can just add to the damage spike with a rend, and fertile season/endure pain/defy pain isn't permenant. The parity between major and superior vigors is pretty bad as well, but not in the superior's side though.

*edit

If this discussion were to be really meaningful, the minor runes for attributes would need to cost hp to wear and the vigor runes would need to negate the hp cost of the attribute runes worn instead of a hp modifier.

Greygon · Dec 12, 2005, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

IN PVE I always use majors. Saves me tons of cash and still does more than its share of getting the job done. lets see major axe rune = 100g, sup axe rune = 3.4k... for only one less attribute which means that i cant do an extra 6 dmg. which would u choose as the best bang for your buck?

I've always found that Minors are the best bang for the buck. Is it worth the -50 for the extra +1? I think it IS worth a -75 (one per build please) for a +2 but I don't like the -50 for 1 extra point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

But look at Superior Vigor compared to Major. Something like 50k less for 9 extra health. Ditto for Superior Absorption, you can settle for the -2 until you can afford the extra -3.

I agree that Major Vig's and major Absorbs are valuable. It is the rest of the Majors that I question.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skuld

I always used to use majors before I had the gold to buy sups.

Point taken. But would it be that much worse (or any worse at all) to use minors until you can afford Superiors? Most Superiors are cheap too. (I know that some are a little expensive, but MOST are cheap)

Quote:

Originally Posted by babychaos

I agree with Greygon.

THANKS! Apparently you are the only one though!

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChoKILLate(FDG)

Even if there is not a big cost difference I often prefer major over superior. The +1 to skill is not as good with the -25 to health. With the major, I can offset with things like enchantments.

I also prefer 2 majors (-100hp) vs 1 superior and definately over 2 superiors (-150hp) in most cases. For an ele, I will have one major energy storage, and one major rune in the element I am using. I put this rune in the corresponding headpiece, so I can switch them out as needed.

This opinion I appreciate. It is well presented and clear with no flames. I don't know that I agree with you ChoKILLate, but I appreciate your input.

Kai Nui · Dec 12, 2005, 11:11 PM // 23:11

They hinder you from unlocking superior runes in PVP and if you don't like them just don't use them. It's like saying all classes should be banned except Mesmer and Monk because I don't use anything else. (although I do)

Greygon · Dec 13, 2005, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kai Nui

It's like saying all classes should be banned except Mesmer and Monk because I don't use anything else. (although I do)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeanBB

I don't use warrior armor either so lets remove it from the game as well!

No, it's NOT like that AT ALL... I have had 4 or 5 responses like this and you are all missing the point (no offense meant, so please don't take any)... It doesn't MATTER if I use Major Runes... They serve VERY LITTLE purpose in the game except to make you unlock more things... They are not used nearly as often as other Runes (Minor or Superior)... They are practically worthless (with the exception of Vig and Absorb)... I just think that they need to be done away with or at least changed so they have more useability...

I do not want them taken out because I don't use them... I don't use LOTS of items in this game... I just think that for as large a percentage of the runes that are found as they are, they are a waste of time effort and space. I for one would rather find a light blue armor than a purple, and OH JOY when I ID that beautiful RARE GOLD Armor 40 and it turns out to be a MAJOR WATER it just makes me SMILE!

Arcanis the Omnipotent · Dec 13, 2005, 01:07 AM // 01:07

HP hits from runes in general need to be lessed. Like -25 and -50.

Jumping from a Minor -0 to -50 is a harsh harsh jump.

Especially when you take into account that a pefect health upgrade is only 30, and they're hard to come by. And that's just one extra +30. Using more than one Major leads up in to the 100, 150 even 250 negative.

I dont know about you, but health sacrifice for a tad more power isnt really that worth it, atleast not the ammount they're asking for.

{IceFire} · Dec 13, 2005, 02:10 AM // 02:10

/signed.

Malchior Devenholm · Dec 13, 2005, 02:41 AM // 02:41

A few things that needs to be or not to be done about the runes...

1. Do NOT put a health penalty on minor, talk about screwing the flow and the noobs

2. Major has to be decreased (pretty sure we all agree on that) but how much? Personally, i favor the 40 price for majors. This would allow more variety in builds for both PvE and PvP as players could invest in a variety of combinations--- +2 in 2 attributes for -80 health (with sup vig penalty drops to -30, with additional max health mod penalty=0) allowing for a normal -75 penalty health sup IF THE ABOVE CONDITIONS ARE MET. If a person doesn't have a health mod to a weapon or offhand they are left with a -20 penalty, a substantial amount IMO. Also, a noob could buy a minor vig then combine with 1 major to give them the little extra boost they'll need (with a -10 health penalty which is a sufficient amount for a noob) Also, if a person has enough health or health mods it could be possible to use 3 majors at 1 time; therefore boosting all 3 mods of the person's build-this condition would probably better suited for PvP instead of PvE.

3. Superior can not drop in penalty, the invincimonks will flare us all

--and although it is widely abused, we don't wanna tick off so many players....(at least i don't

)

Guardian of the Light · Dec 13, 2005, 03:00 AM // 03:00

/signed I think -50 health is retarded too.

SaintGreg · Dec 13, 2005, 07:25 AM // 07:25

I think runes should go from:

10
25
75

Now, realizing that they will never put a penatly on minor runes, as it would be pretty disruptive in general to PvE, and they would get flamed like mad, there is no reason they cannot lower the major rune cost. Something like:

0
30
75

would not seriously affect anyone, and it would make people want to consider major runes for PvP, and even in PvE for reasons other than the cost of sups. Right now the only time you might consider a major in pvp, is if you needed every last bit of hp you could scrounge (in which case all minors would probably make more sense).

Skuld · Dec 13, 2005, 07:31 AM // 07:31

Sorry, that should have been major with no s, and on my latest character i did use all minors

Phades · Dec 13, 2005, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintGreg

I think runes should go from:

10
25
75

Now, realizing that they will never put a penatly on minor runes, as it would be pretty disruptive in general to PvE, and they would get flamed like mad, here is no reason they cannot lower the major rune cost.

That seems reasonable without thinking about the math of attribute points per level versus number of body locations used. I dont think many would complain if the vigors didnt add hp but negate the cost of the runes used. For instance something like the following:

Superior vigor- negates 1 superior rune, or 2 major and 2 minor.
(people would still probably prefer superior runes in this instance though, might possibly need to be 3 & 1 to make it more attractive, but that seems a little over the top)
Major vigor- negates 1 major and 1 minor, or 4 minor runes.
Minor vigor- negates 2 minor runes.

Something like the above would add more depth in build creation and make it alot less cookie cutter in some instances because you are managing more things at the same time. The things are space versus attribute level and total hp used to augment.

The major rune hp cost might be a little low in this quoted example, perhaps 30-35 might be more approrpiate.

Mr. Self Destruct · Dec 13, 2005, 12:59 PM // 12:59

Greygon, how exactly would you justify Anet wasting their time and pissing off 90% of their customers to remove an element from the game that is totally optional and has no detremental effects on anyone? The question is not how common their usage is (I imagine much moreso than you think) or their monetary value, but what exactly warrants their removal? If using a major gave a player an unfair advantage, then an argument for removing them would be understandable. But they do not create an unbalance. Removing them would be pointless.

However, I will agree with you that extracting a major rune from gold armor is bs and this should have been fixed a long time ago.

CONNAN ERVIN · Dec 13, 2005, 08:08 PM // 20:08

i believe that superior worth his money when u need to make a poverfool char 9 hp may save your life one day that is the diference and for warrior when run around that is very needet
i believe better take a superior vigor that a major one when u have the $$

CONNAN ERVIN · Dec 13, 2005, 08:19 PM // 20:19

and forgot something to say my monk become invincible when he have superior vigor at 60 dp he cant be with major rune of vigor he need superior to have 17 ho carculate that and see the big change your like cant be reduced more than 14 hp when u have deep wound usualy hapens when u have major rune of vigor so starter farm in uw need to use it if he dies and change his arenal until he know to use 50hp is only combination in 55 monks when they die in big dps
and i believe in role playing the 50 hp run is the most valuable thing in the game i can make u sure for this

CONNAN ERVIN · Dec 13, 2005, 08:25 PM // 20:25

and that can be used pvp too np if good strategy whay not? some shader enchantmets cant kill

eur0b0y69 · Dec 13, 2005, 09:03 PM // 21:03

I use Majors alot in PvE, i dont see why take them out. Im a W/Mo and i have many different farming spots, for each i use either sword/axe or hammer, buying superior runes each time will cost a lot of money, but majors cost 100gp each , saves me a lot of money. If u dont like them dont use them, but dont take them out of the game.

Age · Dec 13, 2005, 09:04 PM // 21:04

I think they need to stay as they are as for both PvE and PvP.The only superior runes that are expensive right now are warrior absorbtion and monk and a few others but mostly the monk runes.This is becuase of all the solo builds although they can't be used in PvP you will need your maxium health.

/not signed.

darkdragon99 · Dec 13, 2005, 09:05 PM // 21:05

i'd never use a sup or a major beyound vigor i'd never take a hp hit for 1 more attribute or 2 more than i can get out of a minor for nothing

ghezbora · Dec 13, 2005, 09:31 PM // 21:31

I agree majors need to be un-sucked. In general, the population uses minors (because they have no penalty) or superiors (because the cost/benefit ratio is superior to majors). Whether you accept the health loss or not, the vast majority think major runes are trash -- if you don't believe me, ask the rune trader.

Making the penalty less severe (-40 sounds good to me too) would just add more variety to the game, since it would make major runes a more serious consideration when making a build.

Whether or not you do or would use them is irrelevant to whether or not it is a good change to the game. I know my monk has 2 superiors and is very happy with them, so I wouldn't be using any majors either way, but I still think it's a good idea.

/signed