Curse

The Acolyte · Nov 29, 2005, 03:41 PM // 15:41

OK, I'm going to get flamed really bad for this one, but here goes. I'm going to call out the "elephant" in the room that nobody wants to address regarding game balance in sf (and FoW).

The AI needs to be balanced in SF. I'm going to piss off all of my necro friends out there, but the necro minion build has now officially replaced the Ele role. I don't find the AI reaction to the minion master realistic at all; Anet just needs to observe silently any necro farming run to see what I mean. Basically, I'll ask the question that's necessary here: What is the first thing a PC party does when Bone Fiends start popping up?? Attack the necro!!

However, I do NOT want to stop there. I am in no way blaming the necros for gaming the system...even I rely on necros when forming sf parties now because it's so darn easy.

Anet needs to make an essential change to SF to truly make the area challenging and balanced, and this is REALLY going to piss off people. The gear/keg/book/rod/etc trick needs to be adjusted. I think it makes sense to a degree that whoever is holding that item be one of the "primary" targets, but no intelligent character would ever sacrfifice the entire group for such an object. As soon as a nuker starts nuking really hard and doing a mass amount of damage, the nuker should be seen as the threat and the threat eliminated. If minions start popping up, take out the necro. Who in their right minds would ever allow 10+ minions to pop and still not attack the necro??

Yes, this will make SF more difficult to farm. Yes, you'll actually have to consider different strategies when farming. And yes, you may have to take another PC to farm. I see this as a good thing. It would be nice to see the game balanced in this way, so that agro goes to the primary threat. Sometimes it's a monk that is keeping the primary threat alive. Sometimes it's the interrupter that won't let the monk heal. And sometimes it's the primary damage dealer.

My apologies if this irritates you...I hope all of you see the intentions as postive here.

FFF_WarRaven · Nov 29, 2005, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Well, honestly the minion master is not the best build for sf believe it or not, i have a much better nerco build than a minion master, and as far as the book/gear/keg tricks, think of it this way, the enemy's job is to stop you from getting to where ever it is that your going, their job is to stop you from using the artifact, i think it would be cooler to have the enemy's be able to steal the book/etc.. back and run off with it or something, as sar as sf goes maybe be able to kill the keg guy, but then you wouldn't be able to open some doors, tho having to keep him alive would make it harder.

But you realize your calling for another nerf, to an area thats already not too easy, esp with a pug, and with the drop rates as they are...well now...lol

::: DEATH TO THE INFIDEL NERF!!! :::

:::End Transmission:::

Damon Windwalker · Nov 29, 2005, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Why is it we must nerf everything into submission?

Just play the $%^& game.

The Acolyte · Nov 29, 2005, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by FFF_WarRaven

Well, honestly the minion master is not the best build for sf believe it or not, i have a much better nerco build than a minion master, and as far as the book/gear/keg tricks, think of it this way, the enemy's job is to stop you from getting to where ever it is that your going, their job is to stop you from using the artifact, i think it would be cooler to have the enemy's be able to steal the book/etc.. back and run off with it or something, as sar as sf goes maybe be able to kill the keg guy, but then you wouldn't be able to open some doors, tho having to keep him alive would make it harder.

Wow...cool idea. That would be interesting. As I stated above (take a quick look if wouldn't mind) I call out that I understand why it would be the "primary" target. I just don't think it should be the primary target at the expense of the group. Totally understand it might make the zone more difficult (...is it really that hard right now????) Anyway, cool idea on stealing the item back. Maybe instead of running with it, they just move to the back of the group? Then, when PC kills the guy with the item and picks it up agro switches again to the item with attempts to steal (via probability rolls)?? That's a cool alternative.

>>>>stretches out neck for executioners axe to sever...I'd rather be a martyr anyway<<<<<<

Well, I've already got one massive bitch (expected) from Damon lmfao. I AM playing the game, and I'm attempting to make the game better/more challenging. How do you think I know about all of these stupid "tricks?"

judge1121 · Nov 29, 2005, 04:52 PM // 16:52

hey have u guys seen some bugs in SF with the AI of mosnters. they like know specific places in the walls where they can not get targeted mostly the priest of sorrows.

Xenrath · Nov 29, 2005, 04:56 PM // 16:56

The "trick" is actually an exploit. It still happens even if you don't have any quest active, and people exploit it as such...

The Acolyte · Nov 29, 2005, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenrath

The "trick" is actually an exploit. It still happens even if you don't have any quest active, and people exploit it as such...

Not sure who this was directed at, but this is my point though. It takes away the strategical element of the game. Really, when I read posts like this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nessaja

Yes necros can do a lot more then that. 20+ minions @ ~20 damage each (sometimes more sometimes less) is 400 damage... in 2 seconds (or does it rechange at 1.33?). Now this depends on the situation and enemy, but when a MM DOES get going, not even a spike from an elementalist has higher dps. Heck, even against heavy armored units @ 10-15 damage you still do 200-300 damage in 2 seconds making that times 5.

Then it means we need some more balancing. If Anet wants the gear/book/keg/rod/etc aggro trick to be the way characters farm and go through the game, then they need to stay fair in their method of balancing. I've read over 10 posts by people stating that the Ele class is a waste in SF now due to the update. I find it amusing that Anet justifies their AoE update by stating mobs aren't showing intellegince by standing under an AoE, when on the flip side the mobs allow for even 10+ minions to pop up and STILL not attack the friggin necro.

My suggestion is fix the gear/book/keg/rod/etc trick by taking it away, making each of the classes much more balanced, or fix the agro on the necro's for the same reasoning AoE's were adjusted.

Sharpe_116 · Nov 29, 2005, 06:37 PM // 18:37

ok.. i do not liek this idea... please... but down the oversized nerf bat.... and back away..... i remember the good old days..... why cant they come back... before everythign was nerfed to oblivion.... as someone said. JUST PLAY THE GAME

QuixotesGhost · Nov 29, 2005, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Acolyte

My suggestion is fix the gear/book/keg/rod/etc trick by taking it away, making each of the classes much more balanced, or fix the agro on the necro's for the same reasoning AoE's were adjusted.

I want to see the death of the gear/book/keg/rod/ect trick too. If only becuase it absolutely kills my enjoyment of the game every time a group asks my warrior to do it.

Stand here, hold book, take hits.... Yeah, that's Fun.

The Acolyte · Nov 29, 2005, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharpe_116

ok.. i do not liek this idea... please... but down the oversized nerf bat.... and back away..... i remember the good old days..... why cant they come back... before everythign was nerfed to oblivion.... as someone said. JUST PLAY THE GAME

sorry that this upsets you. I guess what I'm beginning to be very bothered by are the responses stating that they don't like it without actually stating why (????)

My current assumption is because they feel comfortable with the ease of today's setup. Playing the game right now is too easy. There is little challenge outside of running these farming runs so many times in the hopes of getting a green item you're looking for. Those that don't like the idea of revamping the gear/keg/boo/rod/etc trick are most likely the same ones that are exploiting the technique for their own gain.

Come on...I thought the point of this format was to focus on ways to make the game more balanced, more challenging, more fun, and more cooperative. I hardly think that using the gear/book/keg/rod/etc trick promotes this.

Like I said earlier, I KNOW I'm going to get flamed. But come on...at least put up the reasons why you don't like this. Maybe I'm missing the point behind the trick....maybe it's not an exploit...

On the other hand, maybe it is a component of the game that needs to be fixed. Like I said, one of two things needs to be resolved. Either this new fad of minion armies needs to be balanced like the AoE (since it's highly AI stupid to let more than 10 minions pop without a huge level of agro moved to the necro), or the gear/keg/book/rod/etc trick needs to be revamped. I vote the latter, only because fixing the minion master will reveal another class that can exploit the trick.

The Acolyte · Nov 29, 2005, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuixotesGhost

I want to see the death of the gear/book/keg/rod/ect trick too. If only becuase it absolutely kills my enjoyment of the game every time a group asks my warrior to do it.

Stand here, hold book, take hits.... Yeah, that's Fun.

Yes....one of the HUGE perks would be the actual usage of warriors for fighting (novel idea). Kind of lame a warrior can go through sf without actually attacking....

Thank you Ghost!

striderkaaru · Nov 29, 2005, 06:53 PM // 18:53

/signed

death to the gear/keg/book trick!

edit: it's also not so much about having a warrior actually attack, but the fact that many young warriors don't know how to play properly. they rely too much on this trick instead of learning true tank skills and improving their game.

Racthoh · Nov 29, 2005, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by striderkaaru

/signed

death to the gear/keg/book trick!

edit: it's also not so much about having a warrior actually attack, but the fact that many young warriors don't know how to play properly. they rely too much on this trick instead of learning true tank skills and improving their game.

Here, here. I would've much rathered the death of the holding item trick than the AoE nerf. It's no wonder you can never find a decent warrior in UW because there isn't anything you can carry.

The Acolyte · Nov 29, 2005, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Here, here. I would've much rathered the death of the holding item trick than the AoE nerf. It's no wonder you can never find a decent warrior in UW because there isn't anything you can carry.

hahahaha

Huksa Duke · Nov 30, 2005, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Here, here. I would've much rathered the death of the holding item trick than the AoE nerf. It's no wonder you can never find a decent warrior in UW because there isn't anything you can carry.

Wow. I cannot believe someone had the balls to even bring this up. I'm tired of this as the primary and only method of farming SF.

/signed!

Damon Windwalker · Nov 30, 2005, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Acolyte

Well, I've already got one massive bitch (expected) from Damon lmfao. I AM playing the game, and I'm attempting to make the game better/more challenging. How do you think I know about all of these stupid "tricks?"

The thing is, the game is as it is.

People get so wound up over "changing" this and "nerfing" that - no-one will be satisfied until the only thing to do in the game is sit around a campfire and exchange barbs with each other (but nothing too painful).

Ever since this game came out there has been constant cries to nerf things. ANet has tried to comply with it as much as possible - and in the end, we have a game that is worse now (gameplay-wise) than when it first released.

No more nerfs. No more "fixes." Things make sense as they are - why change it again?

Damon Windwalker · Nov 30, 2005, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Acolyte

sorry that this upsets you. I guess what I'm beginning to be very bothered by are the responses stating that they don't like it without actually stating why (????)

My current assumption is because they feel comfortable with the ease of today's setup.

Your assumption is wrong, wrong, wrong.

The reason is that there has been constant change. For those of us who have been playing the "less popular" characters we've seen the cries constantly to take away anything that makes us even the slightest bit effective. Some people won't be happy until the game is exactly the way that they thing it should be, and only will include warriors, eles, and monks as effective characters.

Some people don't realize in their cries to "balance" things that they are asking to unbalance things. Sure, some of the "less popular" character types may have a skill that is a bit overpowered - but when you look at how so much else they have is underpowered-to-worthless, why take away the one useful thing?

ANet said they designed this game to be one of skills - skillful building of your character, skillful building of a team, skillful playing of your character. Yet when people do that, the cry immediately goes up to fire off the tactical Nerfs. You're killing everything that the game is about.

You think things are "easy" for certain characters now. Know why they may be "easy" for them now? Because they PAID THIER DUES bringing a character that was borderline worthless throughout most of the game into a powerful character to play now. Why invalidate all of that?

One final thought - if *you* want more challenge than what you feel that you have right now, then it's up to you to figure out how to make things more challenging. That's why people came up with things like solo monks in the UW, 5, 3, and 2 man farming teams in SF, etc. etc. etc. Just because *you* don't think it's challenging enough doesn't mean that you shoudl ruin things for other people. These things don't really affect you - so why change them? Why do people get their panties up in a bunch over stuff like this? Go ahead and find a way to make it more challenging for you - figure out how to create that uber build so you can do something that few others can do - then go ahead and watch everyone whine and cry for nerfing because they can't do it, or they don't like it. See how you feel about it after a while.

striderkaaru · Nov 30, 2005, 04:02 PM // 16:02

wow, chill out damon.

the OP isn't asking for any nerfs on skills. the OP wants to do away with the gear/keg/book trick. that, in itself, isn't a nerf at all. what it will do is force people to play with more thought and skill. the trick doesn't make anyone powerful by any means. it makes them mindless. taking it away won't make them any less powerful than they are now.

Damon Windwalker · Nov 30, 2005, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by striderkaaru

wow, chill out damon.

the OP isn't asking for any nerfs on skills. the OP wants to do away with the gear/keg/book trick. that, in itself, isn't a nerf at all. what it will do is force people to play with more thought and skill. the trick doesn't make anyone powerful by any means. it makes them mindless. taking it away won't make them any less powerful than they are now.

I understand what he's asking for - I just wanted to explain the "bigger picture" of what frustrates me about the calls for constant change...

If you really think about this, as someone else has pointed out, this isn't really a "trick." In fact, just the opposite - it fits into the scenario very well. You have an item that the enemy wants to prevent you from using - so naturally their focus will be to stop the person using that item. Hence the concentration of agro.

However, it's not a matter of if it is a trick makes people dumber or anything like that. It's kinda like watching TV - if there's something on that you don't want to watch, then don't watch it - but don't cry for it to be banned because you don't like it. If this is something that you don't want to use, then don't use it - no-one is forcing you to. Like I said - find your own way of making things more challenging, if it's more challenge that you want. But don't be surprised when someone calls for them to "fix" the "problem" that you might create....

striderkaaru · Nov 30, 2005, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damon Windwalker

I understand what he's asking for - I just wanted to explain the "bigger picture" of what frustrates me about the calls for constant change...

If you really think about this, as someone else has pointed out, this isn't really a "trick." In fact, just the opposite - it fits into the scenario very well. You have an item that the enemy wants to prevent you from using - so naturally their focus will be to stop the person using that item. Hence the concentration of agro.

However, it's not a matter of if it is a trick makes people dumber or anything like that. It's kinda like watching TV - if there's something on that you don't want to watch, then don't watch it - but don't cry for it to be banned because you don't like it. If this is something that you don't want to use, then don't use it - no-one is forcing you to. Like I said - find your own way of making things more challenging, if it's more challenge that you want. But don't be surprised when someone calls for them to "fix" the "problem" that you might create....

at first, i thought that you misunderstood the OP, but now i know that you didn't. regarding some of your previous posts, if you feel like this "trick" is the only thing that makes you useful, then i would seriously suggest taking a second look at the skills at your disposal. i don't mean to be harsh, but if you were really good, you wouldn't need this trick.

and yes, i understand how complicated it would be to fix this. it does make sense for the enemies to make whoever is holding an important object as a higher priority. however, the problem is that players are exploiting this fact. i'm not quite sure how, but it does need to be addressed.

and your analogy regarding the television is a bit off. if i don't like the show, i can just change the channel and not care about it. however, in this case, people who are used to the trick find themselves in my party. so it does, in fact, affect my gameplay. what do i do when i find myself in a fow group with a warrior who doesn't know what to do when he's not holding something? what do i do with an elem who is used to mindlessly nuking enemies who sit there and take it? what happens when the enemies rush past the warrior because he isn't holding something and the elem is now useless because they won't stay in one spot? that group of 8 just became a group of 6. what a waste of my time and 125 gold. so in fact, people who don't develop their playstyles and rely on these exploits do affect my gameplay.