Curse

jibikao · Dec 15, 2005, 12:23 AM // 00:23

I've been using Conjure Element recently and I have yet to find the best use of it besides on a Barrage Ranger + Conjure (since all preparations are gone).

I then go crazy and make an Air Ele with:
16 Air
9 in Beast Mastery
The rest in ES

Conjure Lightning
Tiger Fury
Glimmering Mark

I hardly see any Ele using Conjure and I just want to see how effective it can be on Ele. That's just say I am not impressed at all. lol I want to see if +17 Lightning dmg is worth using and from the way I see it, HELL NO.

I think Conjure Elements need some kind of adjustment. I would like to see some constructive ides here besides flames. I'll start mine:

1.) When Conjure is on, all enchantments are gone. This I believe this is the major reason why 99% Ele (or even other casters) don't use Conjure. The only two other suitable classes are Ranger and Warriors.

2.) Conjure may not be all that great on Warrior because Strength of Honor does the same thing except the damage is always +8 (regardless of armor, except for absorption) and it's on the warrior all the time. I know it's an energy uptake skill but for a warrior, that's not a huge problem.

3.) On Rangers, the only real best use is with Barrage because Barrage erases all preparation. If a Ranger truly wants to go for high elemental damage, they can focus on Wilderness and bring Kindle up to +26. Preparation doesn't get rid of enchantments and it's much cheaper for Ranger to use. Another good thing is Wildernress benefits Troll and other traps/stance. It's win-win situation for a Ranger to focus on Wildernress for more elemental dmg and the rest of attribute points go to Expertise/Marksmanship. Unless the Ranger is running a Marksman's Wager build + some spells, I just don't see how investing in Conjure (a secondary attribute) is better. (I am not talking about E/R here)

4.) Since the game calculates damage and resistance based on individual numbers rather than the sum, your +22 dmg from the Staff and +17 dmg from Conjure is actually reduced further. This is most obvious when you hit a Warrior with absorption. The numbers are very tiny and almost to the laughable point. I tried to combo it with Glimmering Mark since Blind is best against warrior/ranger, I find myself not doing any decent damage at all. Ranger has 70 armor and at least +30 against elemental dmg. My Conjure dmg is soooooooooooooooooo pathetic.

5.) Ok, so I target Necro/Monk/Mesmer. Well, I see more bigger numbers but the result is just as bad because you can't spike a monk to death (not Lightning Orb dmg), you can't out damage a Blood Necro, and if you fight a domination Mesmer, he'll either backfire you first or cast Empathy on you. Did I mention that I have no condition removal? lol

6.) Conjure is an enchantment and has 60s recharge. If I get stripped (Ele primary does get stripped alot), I can't use it again in the next 60s. If I am Warrior/Ranger, I don't get stripped that often....

After several tries in Competition arena, I've come to the conclusion that Conjure Elements need some kind of fix. I don't know how but those skills are not really the "hot" ones. I've even tried to improve it with Tiger Fury and the result I got is "You Noob!". lol

Oh, I've even tried it with Hundred Blades on an E/W. The damage is pathetic against warrior/ranger and since HB is an elite, I can't use GM to cause Blind or other Air elites. It's just as bad...if not worse.

What are your thoughts about Conjure?

jibikao · Dec 15, 2005, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Oh, the first suggestion I have is to change it so you can cast Conjure on somebody else as well.

Would that be overpowering?

First of all, the target must have the corresponding elemental weapon. So it's already a condition. Second, the skill has 60s recharge, so it's not like you can keep casting on several allies, unless you combo it with other skills to speed up recharge / echo it.

Second, the ally who you cast to still lose enchantments.

CrackerJack! · Dec 15, 2005, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Concerning the ranger using conjure,
The ranger spike build I run uses both conjure flame and kindle arrows.

If you balance the attributes right (fire magic and wilderness) The combined dmg from both skills is +30dmg.

Kindle adds fire dmg to your attack making conjure flame effective, So I throw in a 5-1 vamperic bow string just for good measure.

This is the only real use I have found for conjure flame/ice etc..

jibikao · Dec 15, 2005, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrackerJack!

Concerning the ranger using conjure,
The ranger spike build I run uses both conjure flame and kindle arrows.

If you balance the attributes right (fire magic and wilderness) The combined dmg from both skills is +30dmg.

Kindle adds fire dmg to your attack making conjure flame effective, So I throw in a 5-1 vamperic bow string just for good measure.

This is the only real use I have found for conjure flame/ice etc..

That seems to be the ONLY use I know (there is even a template for it). But I would rather focus on lvl 16 Wilderness and more points in Expertise/Marksmanship. I just don't think having Conjure is that beneficial to Ranger. It's not like Ranger can spam Ele spells to benefit from the skill line.

jibikao · Dec 15, 2005, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Ok, I've been thinking....

I know Ranger/Warrior CAN make a use of Conjure but Conjure belongs to Elementalist and I've yet to see how Conjure benefits Ele more than secondary class. Take Aura of Restoration for example, it benefits Ele when he spam spells like Flare, which many believe is a superior version of Conjure Flame and you don't lose enchantments.

So, to make it that Conjure benefits MORE to Ele...I suggest adding bonus to each Conjure.

1.) Conjure Lightning: % to penetrate armor. The % goes up for each level so an Ele with lvl 16 Air will definitely benefit more from Conjure.

2.) Conjure Fire: % to Burn for 1s. The % goes up for each level so an Ele with lvl 16 Fire will definitely benefit more from Conjure. The Burning condition can be 2s once it's past lvl 12-14 Fire.

3.) Conjure Frost: % to Slow for 1s. The % goes up for each level so an Ele with lvl 16 Water will definitely benefit more from Conjure. The Slow condition can be 2s once it's past lvl 12-14 Water.

The bonuses are small but it will make Conjures more appealing to other classes rather than Fire Slinger.

Chev of Hardass · Dec 15, 2005, 04:35 AM // 04:35

We tried running our heavy damge dealing warrior with conjure Lightning, then Frost. The attribute points are better spent elsewhere. Strength of honor is a good place to start.

I agree something needs to be done. I think I like the idea of making it castable on other characters best, but the bonus added sounds nice too. I think both would be overkill.

Keep the ideas coming.

actionjack · Dec 15, 2005, 04:42 AM // 04:42

agree.. it could be better.
If I remember before, it used to be you could cast it on any weapons, and not have to have its elementals. That didn't make it any better...

I like jibikao's idea.
Also could use a better visual effect (a floating shield orbiting around you just don't cut it... need have the sword on flame and such)

Kool Pajamas · Dec 15, 2005, 05:36 AM // 05:36

I tried it on a warrior to add some damage, but it just seemed to be more trouble than its worth.

Even if they would just get rid of the "lose all enchanments" it would help it.

Undivine · Dec 15, 2005, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Being able to cast it on allies is not a good idea, unless they also get rid of the loss of enchantments factor. Just imagine how noobish people could be with that spell that removes a target's enchantments. Imagine how angry your protection monk would be if you started casting that on people in the group. It'd be a hilarious way to screw up a solo monk though.

Ele: "I'll help you do more damage!"
Monk: "N... *Dies instantly*"

Better idea is to simply remove that whole enchantment loss rubbish. After that, perhaps they should still make it stronger.

jesh · Dec 15, 2005, 08:32 AM // 08:32

Dang, that would be funny. Right up there with Unyielding Aura.

dawnrain · Dec 15, 2005, 02:18 PM // 14:18

I agree, with the current weapons available the conjure skills are lacking. However, I would be hesistant to change it in hopes that some of the newer weapons have faster attack rates (with lower damage). Maybe when these newer weapons become available conjure (and illusionary weapon) will see more play.

Chev of Hardass · Dec 15, 2005, 02:23 PM // 14:23

I tend to doubt that we will see new types of weapons. New weapons, yes, but the new weapons will most likely be new skins on the same stats.

my $.02

jibikao · Dec 15, 2005, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Basically, we all agree that Lose all current enchantments is the BIGGEST reason why so many people don't use Conjure (especially casters).

Warrior can use conjure but it costs 10E and I really don't think the +13 damage is all that great when elemental resistance is so heavily resisted in the game. And to get +13, the warrior will suffer greatly for not having enough points in Tactics and Weapon mastery and even Strength. Don't forget that Conjure on Warrior still requires a HIT to be useful. So if the Warrior is Blinded, the conjure effect is gone. It's not like Conjure will still damage (more like IW style). Now, that MAY make a difference!

I mean a lot of Ele spike teams use Lighting Orb for the -25% armor penetration and O Flame for ignoring armor. Those Conjure don't have that. Even +17 seems little. The argument is that an Ele can spam those 5E spells (which cost less with ele enchantments) to get greater effects and they don't need to worry about losing enchantments. Attacking with your staff to get +17 elemental dmg just doesn't seem right. The Ele will suffer from everything Ranger/Warrior suffers...Blind, Defense stance or simply running away. To kill other casters, it's better to spike them to death with high dmg spells like lightning orb, o flame, mind burn. When you add all the pros and cons of Conjure, I am not surprised that Conjure isn't a popular choice of skill and that's why I think the skills need some adjustment.

Fire Slingers use them but like I've said before, the benefit of that is usually not greater than focusing on preparation which is not an enchantment and costs less for Rangers.

I think the "hidden" bonus of each Conjure is a better way to improve Conjure. +13 dmg doesn't justify enough IMO. +13 is heavily resisted in this game. In reality, you'll be happy if you can do +8 more on warrior/ranger.

The Pros of having Conjure on. My discussion is mainly on Ele Primary since that's where the biggest problem is (losing enchantments):
1.) You save energy when you use your staff.
2.) 60s duration
3.) 10E is cheap cost for Ele
4.) You don't get shut down as easily by Mesmers who thought you were using spells.
5.) I guess you can combo this with Necro's Orders? LOL

Chev of Hardass · Dec 15, 2005, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Necro's Orders only effect physical damage. Conjure does not work with them.

Perhaps, lowering the cost and the recharge would be a viable option? I kind of doubt it though.

jibikao · Dec 15, 2005, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chev of Hardass

Necro's Orders only effect physical damage. Conjure does not work with them.

Perhaps, lowering the cost and the recharge would be a viable option? I kind of doubt it though.

That just means Conjure has one less Pro! lol

I don't think 10E and recharge are the main problems with Conjure. Even if the energy cost is 5E and the recharge is 30s, I still don't think the skill is considered "great", not for Ele primary which is my main concern.

I know not all the skills should benefit the primary. For example, Necro's Orders don't seem to benefit Necro primary that much, but Orders benefit the whole party so it's more like a support skill. Conjure can't be cast on another target so in the end, the usefulness of Conjure is heavily reduced.

Mysterial · Dec 15, 2005, 07:00 PM // 19:00

The Conjures should definitely remove the "lose all enchantments". The reason it even has it is legacy from when Conjures didn't require a weapon of the appropriate type, so you couldn't combine them. Since you can't now, there's no reason for them to still have that drawback.

They still are useful in some cases, for example I have some E/W builds that work well with them. An important note is that they strike first, before any weapon damage, so they are a good counter to Reversal of Fortune as the low damage Conjure will eat it leaving the higher damage weapon attack to get through.

Still, a boost wouldn't hurt. A while ago I proposed letting Conjures affect spell damage as well, which would boost both Conjures and spells like the currently underpowered DOT AoEs like Firestorm. Nobody seemed to like that much, though.

jibikao · Dec 15, 2005, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

The Conjures should definitely remove the "lose all enchantments". The reason it even has it is legacy from when Conjures didn't require a weapon of the appropriate type, so you couldn't combine them. Since you can't now, there's no reason for them to still have that drawback.

They still are useful in some cases, for example I have some E/W builds that work well with them. An important note is that they strike first, before any weapon damage, so they are a good counter to Reversal of Fortune as the low damage Conjure will eat it leaving the higher damage weapon attack to get through.

Still, a boost wouldn't hurt. A while ago I proposed letting Conjures affect spell damage as well, which would boost both Conjures and spells like the currently underpowered DOT AoEs like Firestorm. Nobody seemed to like that much, though.

Oh...you mean Conjure's damage is added to Spell damage? mmmm, interesting idea. Would it make those 5E spammable spells too strong? Or not? That sounds like a +17 dmg added to the spells for 60s. I think it's a bit too powerful. +17 dmg on lightning orb will be even more deadly. lol

If Removal of enchantment is gone, that will at least benefit Ele who wants to save enery while using staff to attack, which I believe is the idea behind Conjure.

jibikao · Dec 17, 2005, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Well, looks like I am the only one who cares about Conjure here. lol

I've been thinking about it.. there are some other solutions:

1.) Create a new Upgrade for Staff that has +damage when Conjure is on. The Ele that wants to utilize Conjure will have an option to use this Upgrade instead rather than the +5 energy, or +5 armor or +30 health. I think it's a fair trade.

2.) Create a Staff that has more base damage but with less +energy. This is idea not as good as #1 in my opinion but it's an option.

What do you guys think?

HawkofStorms · Dec 17, 2005, 12:56 AM // 00:56

I'd also like to see a "conjure obsiden" skill or something similar to make ebon weapons useful.

jibikao · Dec 17, 2005, 03:59 AM // 03:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

I'd also like to see a "conjure obsiden" skill or something similar to make ebon weapons useful.

Yeah, does anybody know why there is no Earth Conjure? I mean there is Earth upgrade for weapons and isn't that logical that an Earth conjure makes sense??