Curse

gotenks · Jan 16, 2006, 01:27 PM // 13:27

I was thinking about PvE and PvP in guildwars. How Anet claims that they favor both equally and still in an effort to keep everything balanced for PvP, they make PvE suffer. Levelling characters, nomatter how stupid it sounds to PvP based players, is a big thing for most PvE players.

So I started to think how guildwars is designed at the moment. Initially the only way to unlock skills/mods was through PvE, which made PvP players unhappy. So faction was introduced which allowed PvP players to unlock stuff while doing things they love in guildwars. This made PvP possible without any PvE at all. PvE had nothing to do with PvP from the begining itself. So I asked myself why cant they be seperated totally. PvP only character cant cross into the PvE world at any time, so why are PvE characters allowed in PvP only areas?

My suggestion : Make PvP areas exclusive to PvP only characters. PvE characters cannot enter them. Keep the level cap in PvP areas and weapon armor stats to what they are now. This way changes can be made to PvE without affecting PvP, since its easy to control changes to PvP only characters, as you make them from a menu screen.

If the level cap is increased this way and more attribute points are made available it will only affect PvE, I mean who cares in PvP if there is a -5 degen life siphon, which you can use on a monster. It wont effect PvP as the max there would still be -3. All new skill that are added in the further expansions will also have the same effect.

PvP only players shouldnt have a problem with this because there is a system for them in place which allows them to unlock almost everything by exclusively PvP'ing. So those who are going to comment on "go away if you want to grind levels like other RPG's" can hold their comments, because they can already get what they want without even gaining a single level. If you dont even want to make the effort of unlocking all the skills by PvP'ing, I dunno how to help you, cause this is a MMO and therefore no cheat codes available. And if you are making that comment as a PvE only player and you still dont want to level while spending hours on the expansion, youre a minority, you wont get any support from PvP players, cause they could care less.

As far as being a PvE player in a PvE only area, I am sure he/she would like to level up their character further when they pay for an expansion. They would like to feel more and more powerful, which is a general human tendancy and the reason RPG's had any success in the first place. If this doesnt affect the game balance in PvP, I dont see where the problem lies.

I hope Anet listens to this. Erase all those portals at tombs/CA/TA. If anybody wants to PvP in PvE, level arenas like the one at ascalon and Yaks bend is the way to go.

complexiator · Jan 16, 2006, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Yes there is a seperation between PvP and PvE players in the game now.
Your suggestion is to totally seperate them and sort off make 2 games.
My suggestion would be to bring them more together. An ambition I hope ArenaNet hasn't lost. I have good hope that with the new content in the next chapter we can see this going to happen.

gotenks · Jan 16, 2006, 01:51 PM // 13:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by complexiator

Yes there is a seperation between PvP and PvE players in the game now.
Your suggestion is to totally seperate them and sort off make 2 games.
My suggestion would be to bring them more together. An ambition I hope ArenaNet hasn't lost. I have good hope that with the new content in the next chapter we can see this going to happen.

See thats the problem in the first place. I am thinking in terms of how to keep profits high for Anet, not how to support the ambition you mentioned. I personally would love if that were to become a reality. I would love a complete harmony between both parts of the game. But that sadly is not a reality my friend

Its already evident that steps to keep PvP balanced can cause outrage in the PvE community (and yes GW still has one, surprisingly

). As more and more expansions come out, this arguement will become more and more intense and will cost a lot of $$ to Anet. I think they have to take action now and nip it in the bud. People can still play the game in PvE and find their unlocks and later use them in PvP. But this way ensures that Anet can get the best of both worlds and be good on their promise of non favouritism between PvP/PvE.

Medion · Jan 16, 2006, 03:05 PM // 15:05

NO! Total seperation is not required at all, and it would just make things worse IMO.

I mean; what about people who like to PvE and PvP? Some of them have 4 characters in PvE, nowadays, you can still PvP with them, then it's over.

Also, I hear a lot of people saying: PvE doesn't prepare you for PvP. Then it would even prepare less if you make it into this, imagine a PvE person makes a PvP character, and then uses life siphon thinking he will get 5 regen, but he only gets 3

!

gotenks · Jan 16, 2006, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medion

NO! Total seperation is not required at all, and it would just make things worse IMO.

I mean; what about people who like to PvE and PvP? Some of them have 4 characters in PvE, nowadays, you can still PvP with them, then it's over.

Also, I hear a lot of people saying: PvE doesn't prepare you for PvP. Then it would even prepare less if you make it into this, imagine a PvE person makes a PvP character, and then uses life siphon thinking he will get 5 regen, but he only gets 3

!

You can still PvP in Level restricted arenas, like those in ascalon and yaks. If you want to PvP in a competetive balanced fashion make a PvP only char. Why have all the 4 chars as PvE (Although I personally have 3 accounts with 12 PvE chars, which I will change once I have unlocked everything)? Every person who makes a PvP only char misses out on so much stuff like cool looking armor, better looking customized weapons etc. Why cant the PvE only character make some sacrifice for the good of the game? And the arguement that it seperates the game is totally flawed. Its the people who play with eachother, not specific characters. You are connected to your freinds with your accounts, so it dont matter if you are playing with your friends on a PvE character or a PvP one.

As far as the -5 siphon arguement goes, while making a PvP character you can see the net effect of the attribute points on the effectiveness of each spell. So a person who puts 13 on blood magic, will see a -3 siphon and wont be surprised when its not -5.

Yanman.be · Jan 16, 2006, 03:21 PM // 15:21

how would pve's think life siphon is 5 regen instead of 3 in pvp.? ~~don't understand your argument

i do understand that some have 4 pve's ( pretty dumb imo ( i'm a pvper, still, i have 3 chars finished, covering the 6 professions for easy PVP unlocking, wich of 2 chars can farm (e/me and mo/n )

but what happens if a w/mo joins in with his farming build in CA...he gets owned..what about a warning "your pve build will not be ready for pvp, please consider thinking about your skills and attributes" ( w/mo's and thinking..the horror! )

Sofonisba · Jan 16, 2006, 03:34 PM // 15:34

I'm sorry gotenks, I cannot support this suggestion.

As it is, when you enter arena, you seem to face the same players/teams over and over. When you separate them, you dilute the pool, so to speak.

Are the PvP players really that jealous of PvE players with 15k/Fissure? I don't think so. Are the PvE players really that jealous of PvP players who have all skills unlocked and perfect weapons? No, I don't think so there either.

I have 2 accounts, one slot on each account open for PvP custom if ever needed (and will be needed this weekend!

). But I do most of my PvP with my PvE characters.

Maybe I'm naive, but I do wonder why people claim that most people are one thing or another and they shouldn't mix.

More segregation is not the answer, in my opinion.

Makkert · Jan 16, 2006, 03:37 PM // 15:37

.....

First off, nobody will be 'perfectly happy' as the thread-title suggest. Players are whiners by nature. The PvP crowd whines it gets to little attention, the PvE crowd whines that it gets to little attention. Some people just can't be satisfied.
It's ok to want strive for changes and bring it under the attention, it's another thing to envy and whine.

Now towards content: I disagree.
Why? Because you want two different games. And it goes against a core value of GW. What you describe is more like a 'normal' MMORPG where you can grind to the bone for that last level. The basic rule in GW is that it shouldn't take long(er then needed. skill over time played).
Wether you disagree or agree with that basic rule is not relevant... They won't change it. Much like they stated that UAS won't be in this game.

So no offense, but they won't change this core competence of them....

Deathqueen · Jan 16, 2006, 03:51 PM // 15:51

I'm all for Segregation of the two games, so the PVE game can grow and build into a better game with higher levels, more unique items and never ending adventuring, harder areas where it defintely requires 8 players and not just some invici-builds to take them out.

Yes great idea Segregate the two games or I'm afraid when the smoke clears all that's going to be left down the road are pvpers and the pve end of the game will die anyway.

Also to state "They Won't or They Will Never Change" this or that is a completely speculated statement. All you have to do is take note of what happened to Star Wars Galaxies and also read the fine print of your game EULA/License. They "reserve" the "right" to change anything and everything at any given time as to "THIER" decisions. Be sure and keep that in mind.

Loviatar · Jan 16, 2006, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by gotenks

I

If the level cap is increased this way and more attribute points are made available it will only affect PvE, I mean who cares in PvP if there is a -5 degen life siphon, which you can use on a monster..

\

first the official Anet/NCSoft answer on your level raise reflex

Quote:

from GW

Guild Wars, in contrast, is based around your skill as a player. Our maximum level is twenty and you hit that very quickly, after about 20-30 hours of play. ,We call that 'The Point of Ascension'. Almost all of the content in the game and in the future Chapters is only available to Ascended characters, which means we don't have to worry about providing different levels of content. All the good stuff will be available to everyone. It's not our intent to force people onto the levelling up treadmill, so the level cap in Guild Wars is almost meaningless.

why do you want meaningless number inflation

Quote:

i am level 1 and have a level 1 fireball that kills thr level 2 monsters in 2-3 hits.

i am level 5 and have a level 5 fireball that kills the level 7 monsters in 2-3 hits.

i am level 10 and have a level 10 fireball that kills the level 12 monsters in 2-3 hits.

i am level 20 and have a level 20 fireball that kills the level 22 monsters in 2-3 hits.

i am level 40 and have a level 40 fireball that kills the level 42 monsters in 2-3 hits.

LOOK AT MY GREAT PROGRESS

where is the increase in challenge?

where is anything changing except the number?

add to one of the existing level raise threads instead of creating another.

did you notice chapter 2 is trying to make both sides more palatable to the other which is the opposite of your old tired split them up.

IF A NOT HAVING A HIGHER LEVEL CAP IS A GAME BREAKER FOR YOU JUST SAY BYE AND GO

Knight of Eternal Darknes · Jan 16, 2006, 04:24 PM // 16:24

wow this is stupid suggestion.... I can see you don't pvp, and it's a very 1 sided suggestion, -5 degen life siphon is a hell of a lot of degen for 1 skill that isn't an elite, there's caps in every single part of the game, that's what makes the game different and more strategical on what you do. If your so worried about trying to lvl up, why don't you go play WoW.

gotenks · Jan 16, 2006, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makkert

.....

First off, nobody will be 'perfectly happy' as the thread-title suggest. Players are whiners by nature. The PvP crowd whines it gets to little attention, the PvE crowd whines that it gets to little attention. Some people just can't be satisfied.
It's ok to want strive for changes and bring it under the attention, it's another thing to envy and whine.

Now towards content: I disagree.
Why? Because you want two different games. And it goes against a core value of GW. What you describe is more like a 'normal' MMORPG where you can grind to the bone for that last level. The basic rule in GW is that it shouldn't take long(er then needed. skill over time played).
Wether you disagree or agree with that basic rule is not relevant... They won't change it. Much like they stated that UAS won't be in this game.

So no offense, but they won't change this core competence of them....

Here is something I dont understand. People mentioning term "grind in a normal RPG" again and again. Just think about it for a second. Grind is bad because of that kid with a lvl 80 character, who shows off his/her leetness by beating you to the ground. Such a thing is not possible in guildwars, as the only place where players fight each other have a level cap of 20. Other arenas have a level range cap (5-10 at ascalon, 10-15 yaks, maybe add 15-19 at amnoon? ). So the exclusive PvE arenas are already in place so adding more is not a change at all.

So if in PvE there are more levels to be had, and nobody who can bully you around because of their high level, the overall gaming experience would improve and developers will have more freedom to work with. This game is already broken into two parts or there wont be the terms PvE and PvP. My suggestion was for making them both work properly, without one affecting the progress/development of the other.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

\

first the official Anet/NCSoft answer on your level raise reflex

why do you want meaningless number inflation

add to one of the existing level raise threads instead of creating another.

did you notice chapter 2 is trying to make both sides more palatable to the other which is the opposite of your old tired split them up.

IF A NOT HAVING A HIGHER LEVEL CAP IS A GAME BREAKER FOR YOU JUST SAY BYE AND GO

Anet is a private corporation, making profit is their prime directive, ALWAYS keep that in mind. So nothing in this game is written in stone, they can and will change up things if their profitmaking warrants it.

And yes, levels do make a difference for me. Not only because of the reason you gave, but the whole character building experience. I have droks armor/collector weapons on almost all of my characters. I prefer stats over skin anyday. When expansion 2 comes out I will most likely have the same items with different skins, same armor in terms of stats, well they might add new damage mods or upgrades, but essentially the same stuff. Why? To keep PvP balanced offcourse, and rightly so. So what reason do I have to put in all the effort? Just to unlock all the skills by doing missions and getting skill points? Thats not a reason enough for me and countless others to upgrade all of my accounts.

Its easy for you to say what you mentioned in the end. Just leave the game. Its hurts me more offcourse because of all the hard work I put into GW. But here the crunch part, it hurts Anet the MOST. Here I am with my 3 accounts already spent 150 bucks. I have the ability to upgrade all my accounts for the rest of the expansion so thats 3 x 6 x 50 = ~900$. More if I buy preorder collectors editions, which I might. Not to mention the merchandise I will buy if it ever comes out. And there are a lot of customers like me who will drop out by the 2nd expansion if nothing is done. Can arena net afford to loose faithful customets like me? When all I am asking for is a small change which would make me and quite a few others happy and stabalize the game's further development. Doesnt have to be in Factions, but maybe in the next one?

As I see it the increasingly complex scene of PvP will only pull advanced players later on in GW evolution. Most new/casual players only see the so called CORPG part of it(notice the RPG in it), and Anet should try not to present GW as a PvP only game and scare some of these new customers away. Anet will be wise not to digress from the famous saying that makes a sucessfull game, "Easy to understand and start playing, but hard to master".

I have never played WoW. GW is my first ever rpg (oops CORPG, I meant

) . I love it. I want to keep playing. Should I be listening to the comments above and stop playing?

Deathqueen · Jan 16, 2006, 05:28 PM // 17:28

No you should be listening to the comments of Anet, they are the authority and they have spoken. No leveling past 20. No increase in weapon stats or armor stats, a rumor of possiblity of some new mods/upgrades (big whoopie), read what Gaile talked about most. PVP, PVP this and PVP that and even the PREVIEW is what? PVP arenas. The PVE game is just a side structure to lure the RPG players into buying the game only to find out it's pretty empty and not much to it. It's relatively simple all the way through it and everything is handed to you pretty much like the candy canes were during Wintersday. They allow running of the content, bypassing as much of it as you want (which is silly) and collectors gear as good as any drops for a few meager resources that are easy to aquire. There's no grind because there is really no game. Looking forward to something you earned is a lot more enjoyable and fun obtaining than something that is just handed to you freely and easily. But, that's GW's it's out there for the free taking and leaves the PVE game bland and boring.

theclam · Jan 16, 2006, 05:33 PM // 17:33

The level cap should remain at 20. It sucks when you start a new character and have to wait 60 levels to get to the "good stuff." It's not for PvP at all. It doesn't matter what the level cap is in PvP, since everyone starts out at the cap.

I played WoW and quit because the lvl50 game played identically to the lvl30 game. I couldn't stomach the game for another 10 levels, just so I could hit the cap. Even when you hit the cap, you have to spend many hours farming for items in order to play in the hardest instances. I much prefer GW's system. Character progression is only fun for me if it makes the game different and more interesting. Levelling up doesn't make your character any different. It is fun when you level and see that burst of light around your character. But that feeling only lasts for the first 5% of a level. The gameplay changes are what matters for the other 95%.

theclam · Jan 16, 2006, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deathqueen

No you should be listening to the comments of Anet, they are the authority and they have spoken. No leveling past 20. No increase in weapon stats or armor stats, a rumor of possiblity of some new mods/upgrades (big whoopie), read what Gaile talked about most. PVP, PVP this and PVP that and even the PREVIEW is what? PVP arenas. The PVE game is just a side structure to lure the RPG players into buying the game only to find out it's pretty empty and not much to it. It's relatively simple all the way through it and everything is handed to you pretty much like the candy canes were during Wintersday. They allow running of the content, bypassing as much of it as you want (which is silly) and collectors gear as good as any drops for a few meager resources that are easy to aquire. There's no grind because there is really no game. Looking forward to something you earned is a lot more enjoyable and fun obtaining than something that is just handed to you freely and easily. But, that's GW's it's out there for the free taking and leaves the PVE game bland and boring.

Guild Wars is not primarily a PvP game. PvP and PvE are both important, mostly equal parts of the game. Factions has a full new campaign, a hundred new mobs, new pets, and dozens of missions. They're not neglecting PvE. I actually enjoy the PvE of GW more than many other RPGs (although there is less of it, a problem that Factions will remedy). The combat mechanics make fights feel more dynamic (no taunts and collision detection means you do a lot more than just spamming 3 or 4 spells, like in most other RPGs I've played).

They give you collector weapons, a low cap, and cheap armor because they want PvE to be about actual PvE, not grinding. I actually repeat UW/FoW because they are fun, not because there are good items to get.

actionjack · Jan 16, 2006, 10:12 PM // 22:12

PvP can be better. However, I don't see the need for total seperation. As it is, already almost anyone can start PvP off the bat. PvE, should them want to participate, gain the advantage in being able to be more customizible, but not much more powerful. Remember, the audience of Guild Wars PvP is not totally the same as the CS/Quake crowd, thus some aspect of MMO can remain. With that in mind, I think PvP and PvE can come together better.

I say have a 3rd kind of character, a PvPE, the gladitor, in which you start at lower ring with a new PvP character (say lv 5) where you can learn only a limited of skills. As you combat other of the same level, or NPC "bots", or NPC mobs, you gain more and more (rank/fame/or what ever new name exp) and you can use that to buy new weapons and armor and skills (but your level still stay the same) and eventaully move to Ring two, where you are lv 10.. and so on till you are lv 20. Can also include quest of sort in it as well. This allow your PvP character to jump right into action, but as well as feel a sense of progression, all of which one can earn just remain inside the PvP zone. Such character will be just slightly better than regular PvP character as well, and can even move to the PvE zones.

Of couse, that suggestion also require alot of add ons, and a massive Gladiator Arenat town/map that support PvE fighting as well as PvP ones. Possible in a later expansion (name GW: Arena)

And PvE can always made better with more filling contents and stuff to gain, with out the need of up the level cap.

Loviatar · Jan 16, 2006, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deathqueen

read what Gaile talked about most. PVP, PVP this and PVP that and even the PREVIEW is what? PVP arenas. .

i will refrain from comments about you iq.

THIS IS A SPECIAL PVP EVENT.

THIS IS A SPECIAL PVP EVENT.

IS SHE GOING TO MAKE A BIG PRESENTATION ABOUT THE NEAT PVE THINGS IN STORE FOR A PVP EVENT?

SHE SAID THERE WILL BE AN EVENT FOR US PVE PEOPLE TO GIVE US A PREVIEW AS WELL.

THEN THE PVP CROWD WILL MOAN AS MUCH AS THE PVE CROWD IS NOW.

why bother your mind is made up already

PieXags · Jan 16, 2006, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Bah! This is for serious suggestions people, that's what the Sanitarium is all about. Not MORE debates over whether Anet favors PvP or PvE more. I'd tell you to use the search button, but most all those threads with PvP/PvE debates in them have been locked by this point me thinks, so keep it out of here.

-Closed-