Curse

Siren · Jan 20, 2006, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by theclam

Giving everyone access to the same equipment removes player skill and discourages ingenuity. Right.

It's not as if no one has access to these green items. Some people do have access to them. Are you suggesting that we keep inequality solely for the purpose of making the weaker players play smarter?

It's not like I'm immune to interrupts when I've got an additional 10 or 20 percent chance of a faster cast speed. I still have to worry about interrupts and adapt to Mesmers and Rangers who use them. I just want to have the same advantage against interrupts that hardcore PvE players do.

Remove them from the PvP environment or make them available to everyone. That's all I want. I don't want any special advantages.

And now you start with the sarcasm. You'll find there was absolutely no sarcasm in my previous posts. There was a spot of irony here and there, surely, but never did I jab at you.

The funny thing about your reply is that...you missed my point entirely. My point was that there are actual skill-based options out there one can utilize before running to green items. From what I've gleaned from your posts here, it simply does not sound like you've considered those skill-based options. In my previous reply, I've listed a few of them off the top of my head, options that are all very viable given your role in the team.

And yet you reply with immature jabs? Why not consider what I said, and consider that maybe green items aren't necessary at all in PvP, because there are skills in play already that trump those green items like nothing else? Why not consider that player skill will always win out, even over Wroth's Holy Rod?

If you want interrupt mitigation, don't bother with green items. They won't help you worth a damn.

If you want interrupt mitigation, I highly encourage you to check out Mesmer Inspiration, Ele Earth magic, Monk Divine Favor, etc. Hell, Mantra of Resolve is a Non-Elite stance. Warriors with Wild Blow will ruin it, but other than that...it can't be removed. The duration is solid. The recharge is pretty respectable. And the energy loss is completely manageable, especially if you're using your skills competently, not to mention if your team is equipped properly with someone using Blood Rit or BiP.

Your idea is a bad one because one, it puts green items on a pedestal that they just don't deserve and two, your idea seemingly ignores the fact that there are at least 142 other skills for any given character combination, and somewhere, in those 142 other skills, you can find mitigation for just about anything, including a Mesmer babysitting your 1-second cast times.

Guardian of the Light · Jan 20, 2006, 03:51 AM // 03:51

/notsigned

This is designed to reward players who do both PvP and PvE like me ^_^.

theclam · Jan 20, 2006, 04:02 AM // 04:02

Of course skill trumps items in this game. Of course there are ways of beating interrupts. I use those ways when I feel that they are necessary. People with green items need to use those ways as well. I acknowledge all of that.

Green items are not amazing. They do give a small, but significant, advantage. All I want is the same access to them that hardcore PvE players get. That's it. Equality. I don't want anything that anyone else doesn't have.

It's asinine to think that this will allow me to do well with no skill or allow me to progress without improving my skill. This idea does not hurt anyone. If anything, this makes the game MORE dependant on player skill and ingenuity, since everyone will have access to the same items. If anything, the hardcore PvE players gain an advantage from the half dozen different modifiers that their weapons have that PvP player weapons do not. It's PvE players who are currently allowed to get by with a lack of skill or ingenuity, if your idea is indeed correct.

Siren · Jan 20, 2006, 04:17 AM // 04:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by theclam

Of course skill trumps items in this game. Of course there are ways of beating interrupts. I use those ways when I feel that they are necessary. People with green items need to use those ways as well. I acknowledge all of that.

Green items are not amazing. They do give a small, but significant, advantage. All I want is the same access to them that hardcore PvE players get. That's it. Equality. I don't want anything that anyone else doesn't have.

It's asinine to think that this will allow me to do well with no skill or allow me to progress without improving my skill. This idea does not hurt anyone. If anything, this makes the game MORE dependant on player skill and ingenuity, since everyone will have access to the same items. If anything, the hardcore PvE players gain an advantage from the half dozen different modifiers that their weapons have that PvP player weapons do not. It's PvE players who are currently allowed to get by with a lack of skill or ingenuity, if your idea is indeed correct.

Again, though, green items are unspectacular. In fact, they give no real advantage. 20/20? It's too random to improve anything. 40/20? Still too random. 20/20 or 40/20 for skills that cast in under two seconds? Not worth the effort.

Regarding PvE players allowed to get by with lack of skill or ingenuity? A few of them, yes, when they simply don't understand how to play the game and utilize their characters' strengths. But this quality isn't exclusive to PvE. If a PvE player believes they need a green item to play well, or to compete, that player is always going to be inferior. They're not willing to put in the time, and would rather just equip some 40/20 combination...they're not worth my time.

They go to items to augment mediocre performances.

If you feel your performance is mediocre, why fall into the same trend as those crappy PvErs? Especially considering that green items aren't much better at all. They're simply too random to be effective, and anyone using them against you is hurting themselves. They don't have any advantages at all.

I see your reasoning has become "This idea does not hurt anyone." Do you have any other arguments?

EDIT:

Quote:

I use those ways [ways to beat interrupts] when I feel that they are necessary.

But you didn't seem to feel they were necessary in those matches you described in your support for your idea here.

I'm sorry, but this entire suggestion just doesn't seem right. It doesn't sound like you're concerned with creating a level playing field or whatever. More and more, I get the impression you just don't like getting interrupted, yet don't care enough to really develop some counters for it. It seems to me that you wouldn't be making this suggestion had you seriously and thoroughly perused the types of Interrupt Mitigation I listed previously.

NatalieD · Jan 20, 2006, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Siren, are you just disagreeing for the sake of being difficult? Your posts don't make a lick of sense. "The difference is small, therefore it's nonexistent" is neither rational nor true.

theclam · Jan 20, 2006, 07:39 AM // 07:39

All the interrupt talk came out of using Wroth's Holy Rod as an example. I don't a problem with interrupts any more than any other PvP Monk. If you want, we can use this as an example:
http://www.guildwiki.org/wiki/Ivor%27s_Smiting_Rod

My reasoning is this:
1. PvE players have access to better weapons than PvP players.
2. PvP is supposed to be an equal playing field. Everyone should have access to the same stuff.
3. No one loses out. PvE players get to keep their weapons and the prestige that comes with them. PvP weapons never enter into PvE, so it's not like the market will be flooded with them. If PvE players feel that it is unfair that PvP players get something that they worked hard to get, for free, then the green weapons could be bought using faction. PvE players can keep their unique skins/models.

That's it. Those are my only major points.

Epinephrine · Jan 20, 2006, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

/notsigned

This is designed to reward players who do both PvP and PvE like me ^_^.

It shouldn't "reward" anyone.

We are talking about whether PvP is "fair" or not. Currently, it is biased toward those spending time acquiring PvE items, which makes it not a true PvP competition. I am getting really sick of the randomness that ANet uses with regard to items; removing things from game, changing the nature of items and so on. How is it fair that for a short while rockmolders fdropped with better mods, now they don't? Someone new to the game simply can't go out and get one; same with Denravi swords, and if they eliminate the HoD helm (which I've hear is a possibility) then there's another item that simply can't be acquired.

Linking PvE and PvP for fun makes sense, allowing unlocks and so on (and frankly, the link that way should be stronger! I should be able to use faction to buy skillpoints for toons, since it caps out when you have full PvP unlock but you may want to unlock PvE stuff still so your characters can play more roles) but it makes no sense that it should be a one way street, that you can't recreate in PvP anything you could in PvE. I don't like having to get a -5 energy sword and a -2 energy focus in PvE to equip a PvP toon with. These things are standard gear, and should be available.

Siren · Jan 20, 2006, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Natalie, no, I'm disagreeing because I've used the green items before, and I can say with full confidence that they are not better. These 20/20 and 40/20 combinations just aren't as good as theclam is saying. They give no advantage at all, because the bonuses don't even happen 90% of the time, and when they do, you can't control them. They're entirely random. You'd think you could mathematically predict when you'd be getting the cast/recharge bonuses, but you can't. That's why I feel like this entire discussion is completely moot: because greens are average.

Plus, there has never been any clearly defined establishment that green item use is rampant (or hell, even present enough to warrant this suggestion) in PvP. In matches I've played, rarely do I notice anything out of the ordinary. I don't think I've ever seen any "special" skins of the green items, and quite frankly, the skill cast times and recharges never seemed all that suspect. I never felt that I was at some disadvantage in PvP, because I was more concerned with countering skills and spells rather than fretting over if my opponents were getting faster recharges.

And I guess that's why I see this entire idea as pretty silly. To me, it just seems like someone is fretting over a very minute detail in a match, rather than looking at the match as a whole. Call it tunnel vision, if you will.

I didn't see any indication made that theclam had considered countering whatever item he believed his opponent to be using, so it just seems to me that he is jumping to a conclusion before devising a build that punishes those relying on unreliable "uber" items. For most of those 20/20 types of bonuses, you play Caster Lockdown with Diversion, Backfire, etc., and whatever advantage you believe that opponent ever had will vanish completely.

It's like...treat them like a regular caster, and they'll start behaving like a regular caster, instead of someone getting a little tiny bit of a recharge bonus on some random skill in their skill bar that's not as useful as say, Reversal of Fortune or Bane Signet.

That may not make sense to anyone here, but to me, it makes perfect sense: check out the other 142 skills for your combination before saying you should get item bonuses.

Epinephrine · Jan 20, 2006, 08:12 PM // 20:12

That's foolish. An advantage doesn't have to be big to be an advantage.

There are many forms of advantage granted by PvE gear. For example: Fissure armour looks alike, hiding what oufit you are using. I can spot the armour types, and know at a glance if a player iis protected against certain elements (ranger and elementalist armours), is tougher vs physical (rogue's) or vulnerable to holy damage (necromancer) and so on - all of which is hidden when FoW armour is used.

Options for negative energy items don't exist, but any good PvP monk will want to have these available, to end Wither and Malaise, to hide energy from e-denial and so on.

Recharge bonuses could in theory make a difference in a match, and in theory is all it takes - there should be no advantages. Period. Fine, make people unlock stuff, but there shouldn't be penalty for playing a PvP character.

theclam · Jan 20, 2006, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Ok Siren, you don't want to use faster recharge or cast items or HoD swords. For some reason you don't like to cast faster or recharge faster or have more energy. We get it.

I do want to use them. They help my game. Others want to use the weapons because the weapons help their games. I can't use them without grinding in PvE for a long period of time. Even then, they will be inferior because of customization issues. Some people have access to them, because they are willing to grind. Grinding shouldn't give you an advantage in Guild Wars.

Deathqueen · Jan 20, 2006, 11:32 PM // 23:32

NM heh already gave my opinion on this one. (smile)

At any rate though this is an old old old repeated arguement by those that just wanted to jump into PVP and have every advantage everyone else does. It's not gonna happen, if it were it woulda happened months ago when it was argued about then. (smile)

Andy_M · Jan 20, 2006, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Dearie me, there was me thinking pve equipment was being held back because it can be used in pvp...

JR · Jan 20, 2006, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by theclam

Therefore, I propose that PvP weapons are rebalanced in order to be equally powerful as these PvE weapons.

I complained about the HoD sword, knowing I was being overly picky. Other than that, PvE weapons are not 'imbalanced' at all. They add diversity which is nothing but a good thing.

There are really no PvE weapons that are superior to their PvP counterparts... I use a Fleshweaver on my monk in PvP for the quick recovery from Deep Wound, but really its no better than a standard PvP Blood Staff. Same with the weapons, the only reason people use PvE versions is for looks. Most of the time in high end PvP people make PvE characters for armor swapping or henge helms, and as a side effect they have to use PvE weapons... There is no imbalance though.

Siren · Jan 20, 2006, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Let's consider what the Smiting Rod you previously linked to could possibly do. We've already established how the 20/20 recharges aren't worth it. This doesn't change with Smiting. Take a look at the recharges in Smiting.

Most are either 10 seconds and under, or over 30 seconds. It should go without saying that 10 second recharges don't really necessitate needing (or wanting) faster recharges. It's 10 seconds. That's nothing.

But what about the longer recharges?

Two Elites, 45 seconds (Shield of Judgement) and 30 seconds (Signet of Judgement). Even if you happened to receive the enhanced recharge for Shield of Judgement, you're still looking at a recharge time of roughly 23 seconds for an enchantment whose duration lasts for probably 19 seconds, tops. You could use a 20% enchant mod and probably get that up to 20 seconds, but even then, it's still an enchantment, and still runs the risk of getting removed/shattered/etc.

Considering Shield of Judgement is anti-melee, you should expect enchant removal from Mesmers and Necros. I know I would. And if they're fast with enchant removal, you're looking at a useless Elite for easily 30 seconds.

Signet of Judgement knocks the target foe down and does a reasonable amount of Holy damage to target and adjacent foes. And it has a 30-second recharge. Strictly versus foes who bunch up, I think, and it seems to me a solid team won't bunch up enough for Signet of Judgement to be terribly effective. Plus, provided the opposition isn't a few Necros with Tormentor's gear, 60 Holy damage isn't much. Quick Heal Party, or even Infuse Health and they're good.

Other longer recharges are spells like Symbol of Wrath. It has a 5-second duration. Even with enchant boosts, it's not going higher than 10 or 15 seconds, and I think 15 is even being generous.

Zealot's Fire. 60-second duration with a 30-second recharge. Maybe it's me, but I don't see a need for recharge bonuses here.

Am I missing something about any of this? It's pretty clear to me that there is absolutely no reason anyone would need 20/20 Smiting mods when the major recharges are either from Elites or completely useless enchantments, or enchantments that have a duration twice as long as their recharge.

Another thing I'm wondering is...if you're playing Smiting Monk, why go primary in the first place? If you want faster recharges (and guaranteed faster ones), go Mesmer primary. Fast Casting. Mantra of Recovery. Guaranteed 50% faster recharges on all your spells. Not too shabby. It's one of my favorite Mesmer elites in the game.

I think that's a nice example of using other professions and skills before equipping an item that may give you a slightly better recharge a fraction of the time. Plus, remember that green items can't be modded, so someone bringing them into an arena will be at a disadvantage, particularly if they're relying on Enchantments.

What's the other bonus on the Smiting Rod? +3 energy while enchanted? Seems pretty conditional. If you can't get enchanted, you're not going to have that extra 3 energy. There are quite a few very nice enchant removals in the game.

Well of the Profane is a personal favorite. AoE Enchant strip/suppression. WotP doesn't require a really high Death magic to be effective, so a primary Mesmer can easily use Fast Casting to cast one in a matter of a second or two.

Also...3 energy? What's an extra 3 energy really going to do, realistically? How many Monk skills cost 3 energy? Furthermore, how many Monk skills cost a multiple of 3 energy? 3? 6? 9? 12? 15, there you go. Shield of Judgement. That's it. Then it jumps to 25 energy with Balthazar's Aura.

I disagree that "in theory" justifies the argument theclam is making. Because even "in theory," 3 energy can't do anything. If you're empty and get an enchant, you're still going to have to wait for the energy regen to be able to do anything anyway.

It adds up? Maybe. Just happen to get an enchantment from another one of your teammates and get back to 3 energy immediately, wait another two seconds and get enough to cast one Reversal of Fortune, then find yourself back at 2 energy. Maybe if you're maintaing enchantments somewhere, you can use Blessed Signet, but if you're depending on a measly 3 energy boost, I doubt you'd have the regen or energy to spare.

All of these arguments I'm seeing are purely hypothetical. "It could happen, so therefore we should have X" is exactly the type of logic being used. Where is the consideration if it is happening? I could certainly agree that something would need to be done if "It's happening" were the case, but as it stands now, "It may be happening" is all there is.

And theclam, don't get me wrong, I like faster recharges and faster casts. I want faster recharges and faster casts.

But the green item bonuses are not the way to get faster recharges and faster casts. They're too unreliable.

If you want guaranteed faster casts, check out Mesmer. Monk cast times barely exceed two seconds for the most part. Necro cast times are fairly long, but manageable if you know how to play Necro. Eles have always had long cast times and random cast bonuses aren't going to help them where they need it.

If you want guaranteed faster recharges, check out Mantra of Recovery.

If you want (almost) guaranteed protection from Interrupts, check out Spell Breaker, or Mantra of Resolve, or Glyph of Concentration, or Obsidian Flesh, etc., etc.

Greens do not help your game.

Regarding FoW armor...maybe it's just me, but even today, I don't see much FoW armor running around. Here and there, definitely, but for the most part? Probably the only time I've seen it in PvP was in the iQ vs Te match. Other than that...where is this FoW armor popping up in PvP? Never saw too many people (if any) using it in Tombs, GvG, CA, TA...

leeky baby · Jan 20, 2006, 11:51 PM // 23:51

I think that if people have spent time on makign there amour look good or getting the edge by buying better weapons then why shouldt they have the edge they have spent hundreds of hours getting that much gold ect, let them enjoy it

/unisigned

2_fingers · Jan 21, 2006, 12:56 AM // 00:56

The slight advantage? Man some of those green items u've been mentioning dont drop that often - and if some pvp guy was to acquire repeating sets of of say a bortak wand or something - i think PvP should be nerfed.

Consider how many hours we spend actually looking for the item - much longer than a pvp person would do. Cosider how fast it is to accumulate Faction after running in GvG or even IWAY for tombs. Now consider how many bortaks that one is likely to find in a run in ORO.

PvE characters believe or not, want to have some form of reward for the mindless grinding that you are so opposed to. Basically, your stating in terms of fairness, u want the pvp guys to get the same stuff as a PvE without that grind.

/unsigned

Robster Lobster · Jan 21, 2006, 03:20 AM // 03:20

By arguing that you have a problem with PvP characters using items you've farmed for, you're either being spiteful, or you're admitting that you're using PvE weapons in PvP, and because you've grinded for it, it's fair.

And Siren, if you truly believe that the difference doesn't matter, then why are you so opposed to the idea? I personally think that the +5>50 mod that you can get on a wand along with a recharge/ cast time (unavailable for PvP) is handy, 5 extra energy (the max amount available, not 3 energy) can make a difference, that's another spell, or giving you more time against an e-denail mesmer. But if you don't, why don't you want these items in PvP?

anonymous · Jan 21, 2006, 03:36 AM // 03:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deathqueen

for those that did spend the time building them up

The game is supposed to be skill>time spent so that statement, with the rest of your pve diserve it because they spent alot of time, is invalid. I dont see people being forced to pvp to have an advantage in pve that they cant get from pve themselves.

anonymous · Jan 21, 2006, 03:38 AM // 03:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by leeky baby

why shouldt they have the edge they have spent hundreds of hours getting that much gold ect, let them enjoy it

/unisigned

Why? because the game is supposed to be skill>time spent

Deathqueen · Jan 21, 2006, 04:28 AM // 04:28

skill>time spent still does not say the best. As was said before PVP characters pre-made or custom are competitive with skill and intelligence and there is no UAS, and there is a reward for those that DO spend the TIME. It's doesn't make them fantastically better, but, does give them a reward for their TIME SPENT which is righteously fair imho. You want "more" you must put in the time. You get quite enough without having to grind the PVE at all also imho.

PVP characters get superior anything they want, you know how hard it is for a PVE character to get a superior rune of vigor or absorption? Yessire I firmly believe in the reward for working at the PVE game to be somewhat more efficient in the PVP game with my character. I've earned every right to it and PVP players don't do anything, but, slap each other around for easy faction and expect EVERYTHING?