Curse

Vermilion Okeanos · Mar 01, 2006, 10:30 AM // 10:30

If say the lowest HP ammount from "equipment" (rune, -50 focus, etc) for a lv20 character are limited to 250 or around, skills like protective spirit would lose its farming capability.

Now, the only thing I wonder what more should be done if the farmer decided to die couple times to get HP lower.

or perhaps just limit the number of superior rune one can use.

It is late at night, I just thought of it... the rest is up to you guys that is reading this.

Makkert · Mar 01, 2006, 10:41 AM // 10:41

no.
If you want to kill 55 monks, add a necro with Vampiric Touch in the farmarea.
GG.

Warskull · Mar 01, 2006, 10:48 AM // 10:48

As he said, a single vamp touch or vamp gaze instantly kills a 55 monk. 55 monk farming is a symptom of bad area design.

Vermilion Okeanos · Mar 01, 2006, 07:57 PM // 19:57

If the Dev really want to put a necro in every place in the game (including place that is suppose to be anti-necro theme), I think they would have done so.

This is an alternative, and I don't see anything wrong with it.

It doesn't break PvP, because no one would want to rely on 200-ish hp.
It doesn't break the feel of PvE, as monster are still living where they are likely to be living.

AeroLion · Mar 01, 2006, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermilion Okeanos

If the Dev really want to put a necro in every place in the game (including place that is suppose to be anti-necro theme), I think they would have done so.

And if the devs really wanted to stop 55 monks they would have done so, right?

Man, sometimes I wish Anet would re-buff prot bond to its previous level just to spite the incessant whining about this one build.

Jessyi · Mar 01, 2006, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Well, if you don't want to include necros in a non-necro zone, how about Symbiosis?

Yanman.be · Mar 01, 2006, 08:15 PM // 20:15

heeh nice one jessyi..haven't thought about that one....

Soul Shaker · Mar 01, 2006, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Hp decreasing gear is designed to counteract it's good mods. Limiting it, could actually make some items very powerful...and runes, well, some people like to generalise.

I do however, have a problem with the 55monks here. I want just 1 superior divine, smiting or protection. I can't afford any cos they're in excess of 10k and all other class superiors are 3k or less (i think swordsmanship is the highest out of em, and this doesn't include absorb or vigor)

sh4ft3d · Mar 01, 2006, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Dude.... nerfing 55s..... You do realize that about half the weapons and equip you bought (if you have bought any) were probably from 55s? It stimulates the economy to have na constant flow of good items...

scars of insanity · Mar 02, 2006, 12:02 AM // 00:02

one question. why are people against farming? the only reason ive actualy seen is that non 55 monks cant get their superior runes they want so bad because they dont have enough money. Well guess how us 55 monks got our cash for the runes =). just start saving like everyone else.

Undivine · Mar 02, 2006, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Why be against farming? Go to Augury Rock, international district and stand by the zone to Prophet's Path. Count the monks you see leaving. A lot of those are bots.

Now, not everyone wants to play a 55 monk and farm all day. Farming, theoretically, can be done with any class. Monks are already a highly demanded class for their healing abilities. They don't need to be so good that everyone has to have a 55 monk to make money. While that's technically not the case, 55 monking is far more effective at making money than any other method, to the point where it's an exploit.

And let's not forget that fast and easy farming that only some people can pull off has a negative impact in the form of real-world money trading. There are some companies that employ workshop-like wages to farm for virtual GW items and sell them for real-world cash.

There is also some other bad behaviour that results from people farming.

At any rate, there are many, many threads debating this. I think the original poster is assuming 55 monk farming is a bad thing. Let's just discuss his idea and leave the farming debate to other threads.

Vermilion Okeanos · Mar 02, 2006, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Anet had been anti-farming for the longest, I am simply on their side of philosophy.

Also, symbiosis is an interesting thought (although this can be tricky, a group just might abuse this to pass the mission/quest/area easier, although I doubt, unless the area is full of godly drops), while the monsters skill in the tomb was also one of Anet's idea.

Personally I think Anet should have thought of this idea already before, but didn't implent it because it require alot of changes in the game mechanic.

Now that I have more time to think about this, I think the best idea would actually be adding a new area that good drop much easier, then make the group to require 8 to enter. This way, it will greatly discourage the money/rare farmers, although they can still farm if they really do ENJOY farming (TABOO!!) at where they used to be (perhaps for the poor souls who can't find playing with human enjoyable).

I believe that was Anet's solution, as Tomb had became a test area for the Anet dev team. Chapter2, we will most likely to see more of tomb-like area, while farmer still farm ch1. Instead of focusing to fix ch1 alone, they add a new ch2 to balance the ch1. Everyone live happily ever after.

I suppose this is end of discussion of how will farmer be treated.

AeroLion · Mar 02, 2006, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Your post is full of fallacies. Anet is not anti-farming. The extent of their anti-farming stance is they don't like bot-farming and they see no need to encourage end game farming (UW, FoW, Tombs) as a solo player. They have stated they have nothing against an honest farmer.

Also, areas with godly drops while farming are nonexistant. The most popluar area for farming is Prophets Path which has pretty much no "godly" drops but is instead popular because of the money earned from common items sold to the merchant.

Your suggestions show you have some sort of inherant hatred of solo players or players that play in sub-optimal party numbers. For that I say that the real solution is making party drops for < max party numbers indistinguishable from those that go in at max party. If that is implemented, you will still see solo farmers but they will be no better or worse than a full party when it comes to loot.

Minus Sign · Mar 02, 2006, 07:34 AM // 07:34

While they’re at it, I say they should nerf all increased self-armor buffs for the warrior, from Watch Youself to Shield Stance. This includes getting rid of mesmer skills like ele resistance and physical resistence. That way, all those warriors will get out of Beetletun and Granite Citadel, wasting precious time farming etins and imps and help me fight in PvP and missions. We all know that the good warriors got sick of playing with hate spamming pugs whining about agro and are IDS farmers now, so we should nerf warrior farming so they have to play with me again. Oh yeah, and lets kill Edge of Extinction because none of my PvP ele’s know how to target spirits with fireball. Ew ew! And can we get rid of Echo? Every time I use it, I forget which SS to cast and end up double hexing Spinal Shivers instead of Spiteful Spirit. It’s really hard and no one wants me in their 5 man farms anymore either that’s not fair

/sarcasm off

You don’t like farmers. We get it. But it’s not a question of what YOU want me to do with Guild Wars. I’m not violating EULA. I’m not parasiting UW groups. I don’t use bots. When I solo, I SOLO. It’s how I like to play sometimes, me against the world and the world is on the ropes. I’ma play my monk the way I want to. That means when a friend asks me to help them in groups, I’ll help them. That means when a pug sends blind requests that I join, I’ma refuse (politely) and help the people I came to that mission zone to help. Guild Wars is not about how you think I should play my toons. It’s about having fun. If you’re not having fun without a monk in your group, make one. It is not my job to let you nuke/tank/trap/do anything other than the task 99% of the players in this game HATE OR DON’T KNOW HOW TO DO.

And before you say “No. This wasn’t about monks not in my group. I really think farming is bad” I’ma shoot you down. Anyone whining about monk farming is invariably whining about monks not playing with them. As many times as I’ve seen “SS necro LF 55 monk for duo farm” I’ve seen “Look at all these monks in Augery. Aren’t you ashamed of yourselves? Go to a mission and help some people out :/” I’m betting one of your characters has whined that in All chat at least once. Garb Alesia and leave me alone; I’ve beaten this game start to finish twice with henchies. I’ve beaten this game with every profession. If I can do it, so can you. So get off my back and get cracking. Build a friends list and start PMing monks when you need a hand.

You want a nerf? You got it. Fact is, you got THREE. Solo drops are considerably less than they used to be; Prot Bond is perma-nerfed, destroying much of the 55 HP monks flexibility and UW is hell on wheels for a soloer.

Now. I want a nerf…of threads like this; flame wars in disguise designed to show how it’s not fair that a few elite people who’ve played this game since BETA have all the goods. Here’s a kick in the head for you: if they’ve had the game since BETA, don’t you think they’d HAVE MORE THINGS THAN YOU ANYWAY??? Most farmers are just like you: regular people who bought Guild Wars to play a game and have fun. They didn’t run to the store when Guild Wars first came out and say “Lets figure out how to make a 55HP monk!” They bought it last year. They bought it last month. They’ll buy it tomorrow and learn to farm when Factions hits the shelves.

And they’re not going anywhere just because you don’t like them.

Zerg · Mar 02, 2006, 08:22 AM // 08:22

I enjoy my 55 Monk, I've never abused UW groups ( been I think 5 times lol ) I like solo'ing because its harder makes it more intresting.

Undivine · Mar 03, 2006, 12:14 AM // 00:14

There is nothing inherently wrong with farming honestly. But if there is a very easy way to farm, that opens it to exploit. Problems arise from that, even if there are a good number of people who do it honestly. Though 55 monk farming does create the haves and have-nots and that is an issue as well. It has also created some downright greedy 55 monks who royally screw people over for their farming.

Those issues aside, what I hate especially is how 1 particular class is more powerful in PvE than all the others. I happen to have a monk. I can always bring my monk to a mission whenever my group requires a monk, but if I do that my monk would've finished this game 5 times over instead of me having other characters. It's like everyone needs to play a monk. If you were to make a new character, you are better off making a monk out of all the class options. You potentially get much more money and you progress through the game with ease. I'm in favor of making other classes comparatively useful.

They can do that (at least as far as farming goes) by making easily farmable areas (which will then encourage the bot / real world cash issue) or make no areas easily farmable. The easiest solution is to nerf the 55 monk.

Now, to the original poster, the better way is not to limit the health penalty but simply the number of certain runes you can wear. I think that's reasonable. It's easy to impliment too. Just make it so you can put them on, but they don't stack with eachother.

Then again, since solo farming can actually be pretty fun, perhaps it's better to change the loot distribution system and allow any class to farm.

Soul Shaker · Mar 03, 2006, 05:37 AM // 05:37

Hell, if i didn't have to pay royalties for one rune in a class that i still take a hefty penalty for, i would have no qualms with the 55 monks. That's my only problem. Nothing else.

Minus Sign · Mar 03, 2006, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undivine

There is nothing inherently wrong with farming honestly. But if there is a very easy way to farm, that opens it to exploit. Problems arise from that, even if there are a good number of people who do it honestly. Though 55 monk farming does create the haves and have-nots and that is an issue as well. It has also created some downright greedy 55 monks who royally screw people over for their farming.

Those issues aside, what I hate especially is how 1 particular class is more powerful in PvE than all the others. I happen to have a monk. I can always bring my monk to a mission whenever my group requires a monk, but if I do that my monk would've finished this game 5 times over instead of me having other characters. It's like everyone needs to play a monk. If you were to make a new character, you are better off making a monk out of all the class options. You potentially get much more money and you progress through the game with ease. I'm in favor of making other classes comparatively useful.

They can do that (at least as far as farming goes) by making easily farmable areas (which will then encourage the bot / real world cash issue) or make no areas easily farmable. The easiest solution is to nerf the 55 monk.

Now, to the original poster, the better way is not to limit the health penalty but simply the number of certain runes you can wear. I think that's reasonable. It's easy to impliment too. Just make it so you can put them on, but they don't stack with eachother.

Then again, since solo farming can actually be pretty fun, perhaps it's better to change the loot distribution system and allow any class to farm.

Monk is the only character I CAN'T solo missions with. The henchmen are designed to attack the target you attack, and if I'm always targetting them for heals, they always get confused after the first target drops. How on Tyria does that make them more powerful in PvE? If I HAVE to group through a mission, wouldn't that make me less powerful, not more? Of course, you know this, having a monk.

It's a simple fact: if you're going to take damage, you need to heal that damage somehow. Henchmen work just fine 99% of the time if you're patient (oh; theres the word. You actually have to be patient with Henchmen healers because they start doing stupid things when they're at no mana unlike humans who just beg you for regen while you keep stomping through, making the game harder for them) and take the time to clear seperate mob spawns instead of running through.

And, once more, wish granted. The Ritualist is going to be a sub-healer class, designed to augment group skill in heal, prot and some smite. looking at the skilllists, Ritualists are going to be a walking Healing Spring with Aegis up 75% of the time. They're going to make the whole group a little more powerful, and hopefully reduce elitist practices of monk reliance in game. That being said, people will always want a monk, even if the battery necro or Energy storage healer is actually better for the mission. They'll want monks because monks are healers, and anyone else who tries to heal is a noob who sucks. Its their stereotype, not mine.

Lets try this again: if you want to nerf one type of farm, you have to nerf them all. thats the only way to achieve balance. People farm with monks more than any other proffession--not because its easier or faster--because of websites like this that post farming builds all over the place. Monks aren't easier to farm with; they're easier to find builds for.

If Anet nerfed monks tomorrow, it wouldn't stop farming. I can tank UW just as easy with a warrior as I can 55HP. I can farm griffons faster with Cyclone axe than I can with SOJ. And when they've nerfed both proffessions? Time to make a Ranger. Take my necro for a spin again and bask in how happy all those duo farmers are to see me again. maybe I should rebuild my ele (I mean, he's the toon I used to get those runes for my 55HP build in ther first place) or try that bleached shell farming mesmer build I've heard about (right here in these forums) out.

Gee. If I didn't know better, I'd think I just listed every class and said I can farm with them. In fact, it almost sounds like--just maybe--I already have for 5 of 6.
/rant off

Thats why this is not a thread about farming. If it were, one type of farm would not be singled out as the bane of Guild Wars. Its another flame war about how unfair it is for people to have a monk and not play in pugs. You just admitted it:

Quote:

I can always bring my monk to a mission whenever my group requires a monk, but if I do that my monk would've finished this game 5 times over instead of me having other characters. It's like everyone needs to play a monk.

If this was an anti-farm thread, the REAL uber-farmers would have been discussed, the tanks that drag out 10-100 IDS to sell from Mineral Springs and in a few days to have the money they need for their ectos and FoW armor. Titan farmers, taking on what are supposed to be the most difficult mobs in the game with traps of all things.

Not to put words in Anets mouth, but you're never going to see an end to farming. Anet knows better. They don't have the content to keep this game interesting for more than a few months without farming outside of PvP. And for those people who do not PvP, that translates into diminished repeat business (i.e. people NOT buying Factions when it comes out). And they want farmers money just as much as they want yours.

There is no grind like EQ2 or WoW. Once you beat the game, you've basically done all you can with that character, other than start thumping the arena. Without grind, the semi-mindless leveling inherent in any other MORPG, Competitive based or Massive roleplay, people would stop playing.

Farming is level-grinding for GW. Instead of pushing for that elusive level 60, we're pounding for mods and runes, grabbing cash so we can upgrade our armor, buy that next green, grab sup vigors for our PvP toon. While the returns for GW farming are considerably less than level grinding in other games, bothg have the effect of improving the character, making it better faster than those who don't.

And a lot of people don't like grind. It gets repetitive and more than a little boring, and they don't feel the rewards are worth the work. So they don't do it, and then they complain how people who do get all the cool stuff.

There will always be haves and have-nots simply because there will always be people who whine about how a job is difficult and unfair rather than suck it up and start doing it.

Of course, everything I have said can be summed up in a single sentence:

DON'T FEED THE TROLLS.

Edit:

If anti-farm is really your wish, then WISH GRANTED AGAIN! A new addition in Prophets path, the most farmed area inthe game, has dropped vampiric touch, degen/interuptors and enchant strips throughout the area, at the same time lowering the amount of griffons in the zone. now, does this nerf farmers? No. It nerfs bot farming and farming in Prophets Path. Thats fair. Annoying for honest farmers, but fair since it kills any bot use in there. The balance to this nerfed farm area is, oddly, a green item from a boss in the zone, which a lot of people are starting to (guess what) farm.

EternalTempest · Mar 03, 2006, 05:09 PM // 17:09

/not signed

Anet's view on farming from the developers

Quote:

There are three ways that certain players earn more gold than the average. The first and most obvious way is that, because everyone plays the game differently, some players are able to find unusually profitable areas to hunt in, or tricky strategies for killing a lot of monsters quickly. The search for the most effective way to play can be a fun part of the game for everyone -- we all like to see how well our characters can do, and whether we can tweak our characters to be better than they were previously -- and so we at ArenaNet don’t consider this a problem unless it’s extreme. Although a very knowledgeable or tricky player may be able to earn gold twice as fast as the average, this tends not to create a significant problem, because prices for items in the player-driven economy will still stay at levels where normal players can afford them. But sometimes differences in the distribution of wealth can be extreme; a group of players can find ways to earn gold ten times as fast as the average player. In this case, prices can rise to a level where normal players can’t afford to trade for items anymore. Then we have a problem, and we need to adjust the game to bring wealth distribution back into normal ranges. We constantly monitor the game, so we know when a certain place or technique is being heavily exploited. When an issue like this becomes too severe, we make tweaks as necessary to bring things back in line.

Read this article - http://www.guildwars.com/press/inter...e-friday61.php

I've beaten the game twice now, done all the missions, help friends with anything when they ask me, and farm to work towards stuff I want, like black dye for my armor.

Kai Nui · Mar 03, 2006, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Runes are already unbalanced. You can put on minors for no penalty, but majors have -50. For an extra -25 you get one more level. They should make it: Minors-none, Majors-25, Superiors-50. that'd be fair and would abolish 55 monks nad minion factory... KIND OF. You could probably still acquire DP to a desireable amount of health for farming solo, but it'd be tough to do in UW.