Curse

arredondo · Mar 27, 2006, 08:16 PM // 20:16

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Originally Posted by Siren

Then what's the point of Shadow Stalker? The original intent of it was to shadow stalk. If you're no longer concealed...why bother using it? Just to try to get All-Criticals? Why not use Critical Eye then, with Critical Strikes at a higher level? And most Assassins would normally run Critical Strikes in the 10-12 range I think, particularly if they're using Daggers.

You still are creeping on an opponent from behind to get max potential damage... concealment is part of a separate skill (Incognito). The two go hand in hand when you are taking the offense to a target, but you can use it without Incognito if an enemy has been knocked down by a teammate. Simply attack him from behind as he rises and you get the same effect. It's not locked into one strat.

Critical Strikes gives you a max +7% chance of hitting Criticals... this gives you 100% after hitting them from behind. The restrictions (hit location and reduced speed) keep it fair.

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For the next point, I'm going to repeat my initial question: "Does it depend on the "in the area" aggro bubble like everything else in the game?"

Your answer:

I've isolated the major parts to this. To others reading the thread, am I the only one who thinks this is absurdly imbalanced, to the point of being broken?

This is a skill that basically hides your team status. It can be used from anywhere on the field. When you use it, it copies a random opponent. It allows you to run at normal speed and if you so desired, if you've got a team behind you, you wouldn't even need Shadow Stalker (Incognito makes it obsolete). Am I the only one who sees some major balance issues here?

Incognito's range desperately needs to be at the very least limited to radar range--but it'd be much better limited to either the "in the area" aggro bubble or a little bit outside it. For such powerful effects, giving it any kind of range beyond In The Area is stretching things a lot.

I had Incognito to end once you use any spell or non-dagger skill to prevent non-Assassins from abusing it. If they simply want to wear the other colors and have the same radar dot color... who cares? If your team sees a group of similar colors come onto the radar in your direction, won't you know what's up? I mean, if your camp of 8 suddenly has 16, how do they have an advantage when they can't use non-Assassin abilities? It'll just be a normal fight.

As a way of making this even more of a non-issue... Incognito will now end if the user is the target of an attack or spell. Once the gig is up, there's no advantage to be had. The best way to use it will be one or two Assassins at most using their wits to get in undetected. It'll likey happen when both teams are within radar range because a lone player of any dot-color suddenly appearing on the enemy radar will raise suspicions.

This is the exact same issue with RtCW:ET... people aren't stupid when they see something strange. There is no way of getting to them without walking there until your aggro bubble reaches teleport range. So don't think of it as one player setting out alone from camp... things have to be more hectic and his team has to be in area range at least, with the defensive team spread out.

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And anyway, the skill breaks when your opponents hit C (because we all know how Space-Bar happy people are when they see a target right next to them), so all players need to do to keep tabs on Incog players is periodically tap C. This isn't an FPS where you have manual aiming. That's why something like Incog works in an FPS: the computer isn't controlling the targeting like in GW.

OK, is it broken because it's out of radar range for an unfair advantage or broken because it's easy to figure out with targeting? You're arguing both sides. I explained how the advantage of using the skill out of range isn't that great at all since as soon as the enemy sees one of its colors come to the edge of the radar, they'll know. As far as being targeted easily with 'C', yes it is possible, and I wouldn't have it any other way. The 'C' shows what is in your field of view. If the Assassin used the moment that the action is going hard all over the area he has a better shot at making it work.

People don't have team targeting or are tabbing every second of the match. As an assassin, you have to pick your timing to change clothes (hopefully undetected), slip in (running or teleport, explained below), and then do your damage. This can be done, start to opening hit, in five seconds or slightly less. That's enough time to get a good attempt.

You try to easily discount the FPS analogy, but honestly, you can't. You can be detected changing clothes in that game because you have to steal them from a dead enemy... the whole team gets alerted when this happens, and the dead guy spawns back later looking for the guy who took his clothes.

Forget tab targetting, a player can LOOK at you in disguise in that game and see you are a fake based on the weapons you carry (i.e. a medic with a silenced pistol). You are only a perfect match when you steal a spy's outfit from the other side, and still the ID tag won't show up as it does for friendlies. You can identify people in that game too, so don't try to discount it.

Anyway, in 5 seconds, you have a chance at a gank while Incognito. If you can get behind the back line without being noticed for those precious moments, the other team can't see you with 'C' as they look forward. Healers are looking at their team's health bars mostly, not tabbing for enemies.By the time the offensive primaries notice you as they are fighting up front, you should already be stabbing that enemy in the back of the head.

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Your latest description of Incognito:

I've underlined a certain sentence in the above description. Now look at the latest description of Death's Charge, barring any recent alterations to its skill type:

Notice anything unusual about what I underlined there?

Incognito is overpowered and at the same time completely broken because it doesn't work at all.

It's overpowered because there are pretty much zero limitations on its range. You can use the skill anywhere, apparently, and see no difference in its performance. You don't need to worry about being in range at all, because there is no range for it. There are only 9 seconds of downtime between its duration and cooldown.

And it's broken because no matter if you use it completely outside the radar range, or if you use it within your own Warriors, the enemy hits C for closest target and you're screwed. That's no skill on their part, like an FPSer figuring out you aren't one of their own and then manually placing their targeting reticle on your head. Hitting C here has the computer attacking for you. Any goal for Incognito fooling the opposition is instantly destroyed because of one key on the keyboard.

Yep, I missed that - I didn't want other classes coming Incognito for their skill sets. It's a work-in-progress so more revisions are needed... I'm not as bothered by Assassin skills used to their fullest, so the next revision allows Assassins to use any of their skills like Death Charge, etc. The rest was explained above; it's just as 'easy' to detect a disguised spy in RtCW:ET - just....as....easy. But still it had chances of working.

But still it can be done with success with a bit of observing the current focus of action, smart movement (with and without the disguise on) and a little luck. In GW, if you are behind a sand dune (visually blocked from view), change clothes via Incognito and then instantly Spirit Walk behind the back line while all the action is raging, you will NOT be easily detected, especially by the target. All you want is to begin hitting him - everyone knows you are there after that.

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The confusion was never due to your skill descriptions, arredondo. My concerns are that these two skills aren't as balanced or well-constructed as you think. The philosophy behind them is good, but your execution is very flawed, and it still is.

I didn't get it right the first few times and can continue revising it where I see fit - welcome to the same process Arena.net goes through when they plan new skills... some of theirs have actually made it into a final release broken, so no skin off my nose to keep revising mine.

Still, I disagree with the alarm you have towards use of these made-up skills as if they give such an overwhelming advantage or (at the same time) are completely worthless. I at least have some practice at seeing how the tactic works. Nothing in your imagination can discount actual experience that I have in BOTH games. The little tweaks here and there are needed - thanks for pointing them out. The overall concept is sound, fun, and fair... I only wish they'd put something similar in the game.

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EDIT: Shadow Stalker should make you invisible to everyone except Ritualists. They don't use their physical eyes anyway, so it makes perfect sense they'd see Shadow Forms. And if they want to allow their team mates to see the Shadow Stalker Assassin:

I'd expect 10 or 15 energy cost, 1 or 2 second cast time, and a 20 second recharge.

Incognito is a physical change in appearance. Only Assassins should easily detect, but for now I think the skill has enough to contend with. Shadow Stalker seems fine as it is, Incognito now reads:

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Incognito (Skill): For 8..18 [21 at L16] seconds you will change your appearance to look like a random opponent, and you appear on any enemy's radar as their team color. Incognito ends if you use any non-Assassin skill, or are targeted by any enemy attack or spell.

10E, 2 second cast, 30 sec. recharge.
Shadow Arts attribute line.

Siren · Mar 27, 2006, 10:01 PM // 22:01

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Originally Posted by arredondo

You still are creeping on an opponent from behind to get max potential damage... concealment is part of a separate skill (Incognito). The two go hand in hand when you are taking the offense to a target, but you can use it without Incognito if an enemy has been knocked down by a teammate. Simply attack him from behind as he rises and you get the same effect. It's not locked into one strat.

Critical Strikes gives you a max +7% chance of hitting Criticals... this gives you 100% after hitting them from behind. The restrictions (hit location and reduced speed) keep it fair.

Then the skill shouldn't be called Shadow Stalker, because it's no longer Shadow Stalking. It's nothing more than a Critical Rate boost coupled with a speed reduction. At least before, Shadow Stalker wasn't just a suped-up Critical Eye. It had a really interesting dynamic to it that set it apart from almost every Assassin skill in the game. Now there's really no point in even considering it Shadow Stalker, is there? That's what I'm getting at here.

I would have used Shadow Stalker if I could go into Shadow Form. Being able to become completely invisible was why it was an Elite. I couldn't care less about doing Criticals 100% of the time, because Assassins are going to be so incredibly deadly when people learn how to play them effectively, that even 7% from Critical Eye, combined with a high Critical Strikes, will make a 100% Critical rate completely unnecessary.

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I had Incognito to end once you use any spell or non-dagger skill to prevent non-Assassins from abusing it. If they simply want to wear the other colors and have the same radar dot color... who cares? If your team sees a group of similar colors come onto the radar in your direction, won't you know what's up? I mean, if your camp of 8 suddenly has 16, how do they have an advantage when they can't use non-Assassin abilities? It'll just be a normal fight.

I never cared about Monks wanting to look like Warriors, though. And frankly, if a non-Assassin is wasting a skill slot with it...they shouldn't be playing in the first place. lol

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As a way of making this even more of a non-issue... Incognito will now end if the user is the target of an attack or spell. Once the gig is up, there's no advantage to be had. The best way to use it will be one or two Assassins at most using their wits to get in undetected. It'll likey happen when both teams are within radar range because a lone player of any dot-color suddenly appearing on the enemy radar will raise suspicions.

This is the exact same issue with RtCW:ET... people aren't stupid when they see something strange. There is no way of getting to them without walking there until your aggro bubble reaches teleport range. So don't think of it as one player setting out alone from camp... things have to be more hectic and his team has to be in area range at least, with the defensive team spread out.

See later on in my reply, in the portions about specialized WarHate.

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OK, is it broken because it's out of radar range for an unfair advantage or broken because it's easy to figure out with targeting? You're arguing both sides. I explained how the advantage of using the skill out of range isn't that great at all since as soon as the enemy sees one of its colors come to the edge of the radar, they'll know. As far as being targeted easily with 'C', yes it is possible, and I wouldn't have it any other way. The 'C' shows what is in your field of view. If the Assassin used the moment that the action is going hard all over the area he has a better shot at making it work.

Again, see later on, portions about specialized WarHate.

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People don't have team targeting or are tabbing every second of the match.

I certainly do. I'm constantly paying attention to where players are, how they're positioned, and most importantly, where they might be going. I would hope most players do that. The reason I can rock out interrupts with my Ranger is because I tab through a few targets, anticipating the Heal Sigs, Res Sigs, Troll Unguents, even Orisons of Healing. I'm not able to Distracting Shot the first Res Sig, then Savage Shot another one because of luck. I'm able to do it because I utilize Tab and Shift+Tab. If people don't know of the wonders of those two keys...I'm going to cry. lol

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You try to easily discount the FPS analogy, but honestly, you can't. You can be detected changing clothes in that game because you have to steal them from a dead enemy... the whole team gets alerted when this happens, and the dead guy spawns back later looking for the guy who took his clothes.

Forget tab targetting, a player can LOOK at you in disguise in that game and see you are a fake based on the weapons you carry (i.e. a medic with a silenced pistol). You are only a perfect match when you steal a spy's outfit from the other side, and still the ID tag won't show up as it does for friendlies. You can identify people in that game too, so don't try to discount it.

FPS: you're manually aiming with the mouse.

GW: you're using C and Tab to select targets.

I can very easily discount the FPS analogy here, because conceptually, it relates, but from a technical execution standpoint, the analogy falls apart. I'll say it again, something like Incognito works in an FPS because the computer isn't telling you who's an ally and who's trying to stab you in the face (unless the FPS has green and red targeting reticles). In GW, however, the computer absolutely tells you who's an ally and who's trying to shove a pair of daggers through your jaw.

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Anyway, in 5 seconds, you have a chance at a gank while Incognito. If you can get behind the back line without being noticed for those precious moments, the other team can't see you with 'C' as they look forward. Healers are looking at their team's health bars mostly, not tabbing for enemies.By the time the offensive primaries notice you as they are fighting up front, you should already be stabbing that enemy in the back of the head.

Healers should never "mostly" be looking at their team's health bars. A healer doing that will get ganked. If the healer can't be bothered to look directly around them once in a while...again, they shouldn't be playing the game in the first place.

Hold on a sec.

The goal for this type of character is to blatantly run up to a Monk and kill them, right?

Their "cover" is really nothing more than a costume change that can be broken with something as simple as hitting C then hitting the space bar.

All it takes then is a Necro or Mesmer to throw any number of their Anti-Warrior hexes on that Assassin, just like they would a Sprint Warrior.

Incognito is just another Sprint. You're just making another Sprint Warrior...another cookie-cutter DPS juggernaut.

Does that happen with my suggestions regarding Shadow Stalker? The Assassin runs up then vanishes completely to start stalking. There's something new and dynamic there that can't be countered by simply hitting C and wanding. I'd like the counter to my version of Shadow Stalker to be Ritualists, honestly. It'd integrate the two classes in a very interesting way, and My Eyes Are Your Eyes is a perfect skill for Rit support, both in the team itself and in the Ritualist skill names.

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All you want is to begin hitting him - everyone knows you are there after that.

But if you're facing anyone reasonably competent, the minute you run up--regardless of where you "changed clothes" (haha)--they're going to know something is up, and they're going to hit C to check.

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I didn't get it right the first few times and can continue revising it where I see fit.

Thing is, I know I wouldn't use these skills if major changes aren't made, and it sounds like others won't, as well.

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Still, I disagree with the alarm you have towards use of these made-up skills as if they give such an overwhelming advantage or (at the same time) are completely worthless.

It's not alarm, per se, it's just that I'm not convinced, because either you're not explaining things well enough, or I'm just completely incapable of deeper strategic thought, lol.

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I at least have some practice at seeing how the tactic works. Nothing in your imagination can discount actual experience that I have in BOTH games. The little tweaks here and there are needed - thanks for pointing them out. The overall concept is sound, fun, and fair... I only wish they'd put something similar in the game.

Don't get me wrong here. I'd love to see a Shadow Form thing happening.

But the problem is, well, one of the problems, is that you're comparing two completely different targeting systems. What works in an FPS works because those players aren't hitting C, and don't have the luxury of using Tab to select enemies.

Like I've said above, in FPS, the player has ultimate control over target selection--and they can make mistakes.

In GW, however, the targeting system we use (using C and Tab) is guided by the computer, and the computer is never, ever going to consider a disguised opposing Assassin as a member of your team.

Another problem is just logistics of something like Incognito. It'd only work in the middle of combat, which means you'd already be visible. That means the opposing team already knows you're around, and one of them probably would have you targeted already, because I know I wouldn't let an Assassin be able to do whatever without making sure I'm hexing them. They're so much deadlier than Warriors that if nobody on the opposing team has them covered, that team deserves to lose.

And so if you're already targeted, you know that a Necro or a Mesmer already sees you, and if you move behind a building, they'll suspect something. If they move on to a different target, at the very least they'll continue to keep their eye on you.

And what if you disappear? If you return as a green con? In an 8v8 setting, one character should always carry WarHate, and even as hectic as the battlefield can get, if "Warrior Castration" is what someone is specced into, they're going to be sticking by the squishy targets...and paying attention to what's approaching their squishy allies...including if one of their own characters runs up to their Monk(s). That'll raise the red flag, and bring some WarHate pretty quickly.

Logistically, Incognito doesn't make sense, because the Assassin isn't functioning as an Assassin; he's just playing pretend Warrior (quite literally if he ends up disguised as a Warrior).

And none of what I'm saying is in my "imagination," either. Everything I'm saying here, every problem with a skill like Incognito, are things I guarantee that I'd do to the Assassin who tries to use this skill, because I do most of it already, since I've been playing Necro and Mesmer more than any other class. I know what they can do, and I know the warning signs of a Warrior-Gank.

You may argue this Incognito thing isn't a Warrior-Gank, but it certainly is a War-Gank. You're just using an Assassin to do it, rather than an actual Warrior.

If an Assassin tries to use Incognito in an 8v8 with me on the opposing side, they won't get far at all, because the set-up required for it is absurdly obvious. The Assassin might as well use Local chat and tell me what he's doing. lol. You want Assassins in GW to use subterfuge and deception, fine. But Incognito is not the way to do it. Shadow Stalker with the Shadow Form clause is the way to do it.

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Incognito is a physical change in appearance. Only Assassins should easily detect, but for now I think the skill has enough to contend with. Shadow Stalker seems fine as it is.

I'm caring less and less about Incognito, heh. The wonder of Shadow Stalker's original idea has been sucked out completely now, and the idea of disguises is now nothing more than a lame James Bond-ish type of espionage with a skill that's nowhere near as compelling as Shadow Stalker used to be.

Shadow Stalker (in the version featuring Shadow Form) has the most potential to change the form of the game, because one, it operates in such a way that doesn't succumb to a straight-forward and sometimes boring targeting system (C and Tab), and two, its counters (I mean, come on...My Eyes Are Your Eyes is a perfect Ritualist skill) are far more dynamic and innovative than simply hitting C and wanding the target.

Incognito, however, does not, because it just disguises (no pun intended) a Sprint Warrior as a different character.

arredondo · Mar 28, 2006, 09:45 AM // 09:45

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Originally Posted by Siren

Then the skill shouldn't be called Shadow Stalker, because it's no longer Shadow Stalking. It's nothing more than a Critical Rate boost coupled with a speed reduction. At least before, Shadow Stalker wasn't just a suped-up Critical Eye. It had a really interesting dynamic to it that set it apart from almost every Assassin skill in the game. Now there's really no point in even considering it Shadow Stalker, is there? That's what I'm getting at here.

Lol, now you're nitpicking the name, which you partially settled on? Why call a Mesmer skill Archane Thievery when you can apparently Echo AT steal the same spell you supposedly already stole? Why call their skill Signet of Weariness since the opponent certainly doesn't look very weary to me after I use it...

The overall concept of the skills I put together for the Assassin are just a cool way to mimc what Assassins stereotypically do in some fashion. There's no perfect way, but together so far I think the effect is pretty decent in replicating that "experience".

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I would have used Shadow Stalker if I could go into Shadow Form. Being able to become completely invisible was why it was an Elite. I couldn't care less about doing Criticals 100% of the time, because Assassins are going to be so incredibly deadly when people learn how to play them effectively, that even 7% from Critical Eye, combined with a high Critical Strikes, will make a 100% Critical rate completely unnecessary.

Even if you can get up to 50% Crits, it is not 100% for that short duration of time you are ganking a victim in the back of the head. You may not use it... plenty of other Assassins would. Primal Rage is a new critical skill for the Warriors... it gets only as high as 50% and it is an elite. 100% with the ondition of being behind the enemy plus slowed down is balanced by 100% Criticals that open up with a super-strong attack to the back of an opponent.

I will make one name change however. I never cared too much for the name Merciless Cutthroat... I'll call it Assassin's Backstab:

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Assassin's Backstab (Lead Attack):
If this attack hits, you strike for +(3..9 [10 at L16]) damage. If it hits an opponent from behind, you deal an additional 20..86 [107 at L16] damage and inflict a Deep Wound, lowering your target's maximum Health by 20% for 5..17 [21 at L16)] seconds.

15E, 0 Cast, 12 sec. recharge.
Dagger Mastery attribute line.

+++++

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I certainly do. I'm constantly paying attention to where players are, how they're positioned, and most importantly, where they might be going. I would hope most players do that. The reason I can rock out interrupts with my Ranger is because I tab through a few targets, anticipating the Heal Sigs, Res Sigs, Troll Unguents, even Orisons of Healing. I'm not able to Distracting Shot the first Res Sig, then Savage Shot another one because of luck. I'm able to do it because I utilize Tab and Shift+Tab. If people don't know of the wonders of those two keys...I'm going to cry. lol

You are the exception to the rule... maybe at the highest levels of play this tactic is not worth the trouble of being discovered and killed away from your support. A lot of skills in GW are not worth bringing at the top levels (even some professions are ignored by a lot of teams, lol).

If 80% of the masses are getting their jollies with setups like this, that is what "fun" is all about. More actual role-playing of a character's style should be encouraged with ideas like this.

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FPS: you're manually aiming with the mouse.

GW: you're using C and Tab to select targets.

I can very easily discount the FPS analogy here, because conceptually, it relates, but from a technical execution standpoint, the analogy falls apart. I'll say it again, something like Incognito works in an FPS because the computer isn't telling you who's an ally and who's trying to stab you in the face (unless the FPS has green and red targeting reticles). In GW, however, the computer absolutely tells you who's an ally and who's trying to shove a pair of daggers through your jaw.

In the FPS, you only have to LOOK at the screen to visually see differences between a disguised spy and a real teammate... I was VERY good at spotting them whether I was moving my mouse or not. If they are in the field of view, I only needed my eyes. In GW PvP, the 'C' mouse is literally an extra action you do NOT need in RtCW... it takes more effort in this game if it were possible.

Plus, not all players are hitting 'C' at all times, but you pretend as if they do. Most players, when engaged in their immediate circumstance (of almost any online game) ar e focused on the immediate circumstance unless something significant happens (sound of Fire Storm coming...). All a Assassin in this setup needs is 5 seconds to change (away from primary area of conflict), teleport over to the area while the team is distracted for a second, and then get behind the field of view while disguised so that the ''C' will not show them.

With those few precious seconds of opportunity, they go for the kill. Sometimes they will get caught, sometimes not. The fun will be in trying. Once they're attacked after discovery, the build loses a lot of it's power because the enemy knows to look out for spies. Then they will REALLY 'C' check even their buddies. The trade off is fair.

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Healers should never "mostly" be looking at their team's health bars. A healer doing that will get ganked. If the healer can't be bothered to look directly around them once in a while...again, they shouldn't be playing the game in the first place.

Tell that to the hundreds of enemies I killed from behind in RtCW.

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Hold on a sec.

The goal for this type of character is to blatantly run up to a Monk and kill them, right?

Their "cover" is really nothing more than a costume change that can be broken with something as simple as hitting C then hitting the space bar.

All it takes then is a Necro or Mesmer to throw any number of their Anti-Warrior hexes on that Assassin, just like they would a Sprint Warrior.

Incognito is just another Sprint. You're just making another Sprint Warrior...another cookie-cutter DPS juggernaut.

Totally left field questions... "Blatantly run up" has never been close to any descrip I've written. Yes, you can be discovered... I've never said otherwise. Choose your costume change at a wise point on the field. If you just run around with it on, of course you'll be discovered. We're talking a FIVE SECOND WINDOW of opportunity to change, get in, and start back stabbing. There are plenty of chances to slip in with their movement skills in that span of time, before they start tossing Hexes and any other scenario you're trying to describe here.

You get one shot in the entire match to make it work (after that everyone knows that an Assassin has the Stalking skill set)... you will constantly second guess yoursellf as to if you are being closely watched while the battle is going on around you. You wait until all eyes are seemingly on a trouble spot then you try to make a move. That's what it is all about.

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Does that happen with my suggestions regarding Shadow Stalker? The Assassin runs up then vanishes completely to start stalking. There's something new and dynamic there that can't be countered by simply hitting C and wanding. I'd like the counter to my version of Shadow Stalker to be Ritualists, honestly. It'd integrate the two classes in a very interesting way, and My Eyes Are Your Eyes is a perfect skill for Rit support, both in the team itself and in the Ritualist skill names.

I've explained the window of opportunity enough times to answer this again. The way i have it works fine. I've played it, you haven't. In GW PvP, I actually "look" for moments now when I could try it out. There are plenty of small moments when I know it would've likely worked.

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But if you're facing anyone reasonably competent, the minute you run up--regardless of where you "changed clothes" (haha)--they're going to know something is up, and they're going to hit C to check.

I've played this style before. You can successfully move on a target in disguise in a way that doesn't alarm a target who feels he's in a secured area with friends. You don't RUN up on them. You can even wait, while comfortably behind them, until they start a cast. Oppoertunity knocks where you look for it. My first post describing the scenarios of how it can work shows this. I don't hit the 'C' button every two seconds and don't know any players that do. The window is there - you refuse to admit it for some reason.

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Thing is, I know I wouldn't use these skills if major changes aren't made, and it sounds like others won't, as well.

Lol, take your ball and go home then.

I won't be making any more major changes.

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It's not alarm, per se, it's just that I'm not convinced, because either you're not explaining things well enough, or I'm just completely incapable of deeper strategic thought, lol.

I can only explain the same thing a dozen times before it gets old. You apparently have NOT played as a spy in disguise in RtCW:ET. I've played both it and GW extensively. I am very aware of general player tendacies and habits as I discuss stuff like this. More than half of the players still cast through Back Fire with no reliable healing support to count on... and you want me to believe that ganks won't pile up on the average users out there?

Very few are as hyper-observant as you claim to be with no simple way of backing it up... but I'll take you at your word. For YOU and your style of play. There are plenty of others who will leave plenty of opportunities to be surprised.

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Don't get me wrong here. I'd love to see a Shadow Form thing happening.

But the problem is, well, one of the problems, is that you're comparing two completely different targeting systems. What works in an FPS works because those players aren't hitting C, and don't have the luxury of using Tab to select enemies.

Like I've said above, in FPS, the player has ultimate control over target selection--and they can make mistakes.

In GW, however, the targeting system we use (using C and Tab) is guided by the computer, and the computer is never, ever going to consider a disguised opposing Assassin as a member of your team.

It's easier to see a disguise in RtCW:ET than it will be in GW. Moving on...

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Another problem is just logistics of something like Incognito. It'd only work in the middle of combat, which means you'd already be visible. That means the opposing team already knows you're around, and one of them probably would have you targeted already, because I know I wouldn't let an Assassin be able to do whatever without making sure I'm hexing them. They're so much deadlier than Warriors that if nobody on the opposing team has them covered, that team deserves to lose.

Fine, you have your strats down... good for you. That doesn't answer to the thousands of other players who have not mentally prepared for every single possibility in the game. This will be merely one of several tactics in GW that can be effective on mortals from time to time.

I'm not trying to create perfection. So far, I'm happy with the balance of something cool and unique for its class with the weaknesses of not being overpowered. It does enough things right for me to be pleased with the overall idea. If an Assassin is under constant survaillance, fine, he can't switch up and expect it to work. For everyone that stops him from changing, there'll be others caught by surprised. This is the real world of non-perfection we live in you know.

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And so if you're already targeted, you know that a Necro or a Mesmer already sees you, and if you move behind a building, they'll suspect something. If they move on to a different target, at the very least they'll continue to keep their eye on you.

Which is the chance you'll take that all eyes are on you, and that sometimes NO eyes are on you. i mean how can you argue such a ridiculous concept?

Just today I was noticing how I came behind an opponent in the heat of battle with no special tricks at all... you really are making waaaaaaaay to much of your perfect scenarios where everyone is watching everyone at all times. I needed to recharge energy and wandered away from the heat of battle once my Distortion bored a Warrior who wen back to find an easier adrenal foe to beat on. -1 a whiff recharges more than you use up. After 10-12 seconds, I came back, and with players in different areas battling or running, there were plenty of chances for me to make a move. With Spirit Walk, more opportunities will arrive. All I need is a few seconds behind the target and it doesn't matter who sees me then.

Next time you play, try to get behind someone and simply melee pop them (usually as they are doing something else). Not necessarily the back line... you can surprise If you can't pull that off at least every other match then I don't know what to say because its too simple to do withOUT a disguise in this game.

A Mesmer eyeing a spell caster for a potential interrupt can be distracted even for three seconds to not notice a disguised "friendly' with the same color radar dot who Spirit Walked in just before he comes behind and attacks him. Yes, I know it won't happen against you with your ultra-awareness level... there are plenty of players who aren't as infallible if it happens to them.

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And what if you disappear? If you return as a green con? In an 8v8 setting, one character should always carry WarHate, and even as hectic as the battlefield can get, if "Warrior Castration" is what someone is specced into, they're going to be sticking by the squishy targets...and paying attention to what's approaching their squishy allies...including if one of their own characters runs up to their Monk(s). That'll raise the red flag, and bring some WarHate pretty quickly.

Such is the chance one takes using these tactics. If priority one is heavily guarded, even specifically for this tactic by hanging back looking for Back Stabbers, then priority 2 or 3 may be fighting on the front lines. You may not even need a disguise. You lear playing sports that sometimes you take what the opponents will give you.

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Logistically, Incognito doesn't make sense, because the Assassin isn't functioning as an Assassin; he's just playing pretend Warrior (quite literally if he ends up disguised as a Warrior).

And none of what I'm saying is in my "imagination," either. Everything I'm saying here, every problem with a skill like Incognito, are things I guarantee that I'd do to the Assassin who tries to use this skill, because I do most of it already, since I've been playing Necro and Mesmer more than any other class. I know what they can do, and I know the warning signs of a Warrior-Gank.

You may argue this Incognito thing isn't a Warrior-Gank, but it certainly is a War-Gank. You're just using an Assassin to do it, rather than an actual Warrior.

Lol, ok... Assassins are just Warriors. Gotcha.

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If an Assassin tries to use Incognito in an 8v8 with me on the opposing side, they won't get far at all, because the set-up required for it is absurdly obvious. The Assassin might as well use Local chat and tell me what he's doing. lol. You want Assassins in GW to use subterfuge and deception, fine. But Incognito is not the way to do it. Shadow Stalker with the Shadow Form clause is the way to do it.

Yes, forum theory has dispelled any chance of something working that works already in another game just fine. Again, I know your Spidey sense is always tingling... you will never convince me that the masses are just as aware even nearly as often. FIVE SECONDS is all that's needed; against "regular" players, that's plenty of time to get the first hit in.

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I'm caring less and less about Incognito, heh. The wonder of Shadow Stalker's original idea has been sucked out completely now, and the idea of disguises is now nothing more than a lame James Bond-ish type of espionage with a skill that's nowhere near as compelling as Shadow Stalker used to be.

Shadow Stalker (in the version featuring Shadow Form) has the most potential to change the form of the game, because one, it operates in such a way that doesn't succumb to a straight-forward and sometimes boring targeting system (C and Tab), and two, its counters (I mean, come on...My Eyes Are Your Eyes is a perfect Ritualist skill) are far more dynamic and innovative than simply hitting C and wanding the target.

Incognito, however, does not, because it just disguises (no pun intended) a Sprint Warrior as a different character.

For now, nothing needs changing. Thanks for the input.

arredondo · Mar 28, 2006, 09:47 AM // 09:47

Notes to myself, the three skills now read:

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Shadow Stalker (Stance):
For 3..9 [11 at L16] seconds, you move 50% slower. While in Shadow Stalker stance, if your next attack hits an opponent from behind, all of your following attacks result in Critical Hits. Shadow Stalker ends if you use a non-attack skill.

5E, 0 cast time, 30 sec. recharge. This is an Elite skill.
Critical Strikes attribute line.

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Incognito (Skill):
For 8..18 [21 at L16] seconds you will change your appearance to look like a random opponent, and you appear on any enemy's radar as their team color. Incognito ends if you attack with a weapon other than knives, or are targeted for attack by an opponent.

10E, 2 second cast, 30 sec. recharge.
Shadow Arts attribute line.

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Assassin's Backstab (Lead Attack):
If this attack hits, you strike for +(3..9 [10 at L16]) damage. If it hits an opponent from behind, you deal an additional 20..86 [107 at L16] damage and inflict a Deep Wound, lowering your target's maximum Health by 20% for 5..17 [21 at L16] seconds.

15E, 0 Cast, 12 sec. recharge.
Dagger Mastery attribute line.

Siren · Mar 28, 2006, 07:00 PM // 19:00

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Originally Posted by arredondo

Lol, now you're nitpicking the name, which you partially settled on? Why call a Mesmer skill Archane Thievery when you can apparently Echo AT steal the same spell you supposedly already stole? Why call their skill Signet of Weariness since the opponent certainly doesn't look very weary to me after I use it...

The overall concept of the skills I put together for the Assassin are just a cool way to mimc what Assassins stereotypically do in some fashion. There's no perfect way, but together so far I think the effect is pretty decent in replicating that "experience".

No, arredondo, I partially settled on Shadow Stalker back when the skill was actually using a shadow technique. Now, however, it's nothing more than a suped-up Critical Eye. I partially settled on Shadow Stalker because that's precisely what the skill was doing: you were stalking in a shadow form. Now, however, since the skill does absolutely nothing similar to what was originally suggested, I see no reason at all to continue calling it Shadow Stalker.

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Even if you can get up to 50% Crits, it is not 100% for that short duration of time you are ganking a victim in the back of the head. You may not use it... plenty of other Assassins would. Primal Rage is a new critical skill for the Warriors... it gets only as high as 50% and it is an elite. 100% with the ondition of being behind the enemy plus slowed down is balanced by 100% Criticals that open up with a super-strong attack to the back of an opponent.

The fact that you believe an Assassin being able to 100% criticals is okay, just because the Assassin will be slowed down, and that 100% rate dependent on hitting a foe from behind...worries me.

I mean, we've all seen what the pre-built Fangs of Melandru build does, and that doesn't even have Critical Strikes. It barely gets critical hits because of that.

And yet it's one of the easiest--and most overpowered--builds in the game, whether compared to other pre-builts or player-designed builds. When Ranger/Assassins can kill characters within seconds already, do you honestly believe giving primary Assassins 100% Criticals with a small handful of "penalties" is balanced? You're talking about critical hits 100% of the time. If you wanted penalties to "balance" that out, that Assassin basically needs to get Blinded.

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You are the exception to the rule... maybe at the highest levels of play this tactic is not worth the trouble of being discovered and killed away from your support. A lot of skills in GW are not worth bringing at the top levels (even some professions are ignored by a lot of teams, lol).

If 80% of the masses are getting their jollies with setups like this, that is what "fun" is all about. More actual role-playing of a character's style should be encouraged with ideas like this.

Well of Power being one of them, considering it's a PvE skill, lol.

But that's all Incognito will always be, anyway. Some role-playing ability, rather than a viable tactic used by serious players. It's a goof-off skill. Don't try to say it's anything more important than that. Suggest it because it's a fun idea to goof around with. Don't suggest it as a serious Assassin tactic.

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In the FPS, you only have to LOOK at the screen to visually see differences between a disguised spy and a real teammate... I was VERY good at spotting them whether I was moving my mouse or not. If they are in the field of view, I only needed my eyes. In GW PvP, the 'C' mouse is literally an extra action you do NOT need in RtCW... it takes more effort in this game if it were possible.

Plus, not all players are hitting 'C' at all times, but you pretend as if they do. Most players, when engaged in their immediate circumstance (of almost any online game) ar e focused on the immediate circumstance unless something significant happens (sound of Fire Storm coming...). All a Assassin in this setup needs is 5 seconds to change (away from primary area of conflict), teleport over to the area while the team is distracted for a second, and then get behind the field of view while disguised so that the ''C' will not show them.

With those few precious seconds of opportunity, they go for the kill. Sometimes they will get caught, sometimes not. The fun will be in trying. Once they're attacked after discovery, the build loses a lot of it's power because the enemy knows to look out for spies. Then they will REALLY 'C' check even their buddies. The trade off is fair.

I can only explain the same thing a dozen times before it gets old. You apparently have NOT played as a spy in disguise in RtCW:ET. I've played both it and GW extensively. I am very aware of general player tendacies and habits as I discuss stuff like this. More than half of the players still cast through Back Fire with no reliable healing support to count on... and you want me to believe that ganks won't pile up on the average users out there?

It's easier to see a disguise in RtCW:ET than it will be in GW. Moving on...

Yes, forum theory has dispelled any chance of something working that works already in another game just fine.

If you can't see why FPS tech execution is different than GW's execution, and thus why your entire analogy is inherently flawed, there's no hope for you, and no hope for the skills you've suggested. That's the bottom line. A skill like that works in FPS because of the targeting system, the perspective itself, the total mouse control, etc. It's not even worth explaining this to you because you get lost in all the wrong details and never once step back and think about the broader concept I'm talking about.

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Tell that to the hundreds of enemies I killed from behind in RtCW.

I'm talking about GW, though. Your FPS experience as it relates to this discussion...doesn't relate, as much as you want to believe otherwise.

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Totally left field questions... "Blatantly run up" has never been close to any descrip I've written. Yes, you can be discovered... I've never said otherwise. Choose your costume change at a wise point on the field. If you just run around with it on, of course you'll be discovered. We're talking a FIVE SECOND WINDOW of opportunity to change, get in, and start back stabbing. There are plenty of chances to slip in with their movement skills in that span of time, before they start tossing Hexes and any other scenario you're trying to describe here.

I've played this style before. You can successfully move on a target in disguise in a way that doesn't alarm a target who feels he's in a secured area with friends. You don't RUN up on them. You can even wait, while comfortably behind them, until they start a cast. Oppoertunity knocks where you look for it. My first post describing the scenarios of how it can work shows this. I don't hit the 'C' button every two seconds and don't know any players that do. The window is there - you refuse to admit it for some reason.

No, it is "blatantly run up." The hiding behind an object and trying to "sneak in" is irrelevant. There's a prep time that wastes your time, then you have a limited time frame for this skill. That means you can't delay--and delay is something I was never talking about in the first place. You go into the disguise, then get in range. And you can't get in range in 15 seconds by walking backwards. Sorry, man, but this entire tactic is completely dependent on blatantly running in. You can try to say it isn't, but consider how it'd be done in Guild Wars, and you'll see that there's no other way to use this skill.

And let's say it's possible to get in range while walking backwards. If the Monks are watching the field in addition to paying attention to their team's health bars, they'll know something isn't right when the full-health Elementalist begins moonwalking to them. Then all that's required there is simple targeting/calling. So much for Incognito being a dependable skill. lol

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You get one shot in the entire match to make it work (after that everyone knows that an Assassin has the Stalking skill set)... you will constantly second guess yoursellf as to if you are being closely watched while the battle is going on around you. You wait until all eyes are seemingly on a trouble spot then you try to make a move. That's what it is all about.

So let me get this straight...this is an entire skill slot (or two) that is useful only once. After that, it's been disabled for the rest of the match. The only point to a skill for Incognito is getting a quick kill. For getting a single-target gank. Ignoring the fact that Assassins can very quickly and easily get single-target ganks already, and much more faster than the absurd set-up time required for Incognito...what do you think this skill is going to add to the game?

It's not going to improve Assassin performance, and it sure as hell isn't going to make Assassin any more attractive to reluctant players. If they're turned off by the nature of the character, how is a more complex system going to get them interested?

And I seriously doubt the more veteran Assassin players would give Incognito a second glance. In the time it takes to properly prepare for Incognito, an experienced Assassin could have already gotten a kill and be working on a second one. For the Assassin focusing on kills (and really, what else does the Assassin focus on?), Incognito doesn't improve their chances; it just wastes their time.

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I've explained the window of opportunity enough times to answer this again. The way i have it works fine. I've played it, you haven't. In GW PvP, I actually "look" for moments now when I could try it out. There are plenty of small moments when I know it would've likely worked.

Just today I was noticing how I came behind an opponent in the heat of battle with no special tricks at all... you really are making waaaaaaaay to much of your perfect scenarios where everyone is watching everyone at all times. I needed to recharge energy and wandered away from the heat of battle once my Distortion bored a Warrior who wen back to find an easier adrenal foe to beat on. -1 a whiff recharges more than you use up. After 10-12 seconds, I came back, and with players in different areas battling or running, there were plenty of chances for me to make a move. With Spirit Walk, more opportunities will arrive. All I need is a few seconds behind the target and it doesn't matter who sees me then.

Next time you play, try to get behind someone and simply melee pop them (usually as they are doing something else). Not necessarily the back line... you can surprise If you can't pull that off at least every other match then I don't know what to say because its too simple to do withOUT a disguise in this game.

A Mesmer eyeing a spell caster for a potential interrupt can be distracted even for three seconds to not notice a disguised "friendly' with the same color radar dot who Spirit Walked in just before he comes behind and attacks him. Yes, I know it won't happen against you with your ultra-awareness level... there are plenty of players who aren't as infallible if it happens to them.

And are you unable to just as easily exploit those moments using Fangs of Melandru? Who needs Incognito when the Assassin is more than capable of brutally killing without it?

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Very few are as hyper-observant as you claim to be with no simple way of backing it up... but I'll take you at your word. For YOU and your style of play. There are plenty of others who will leave plenty of opportunities to be surprised.

Fine, you have your strats down... good for you. That doesn't answer to the thousands of other players who have not mentally prepared for every single possibility in the game. This will be merely one of several tactics in GW that can be effective on mortals from time to time.

Yes, I know it won't happen against you with your ultra-awareness level... there are plenty of players who aren't as infallible if it happens to them.

Again, I know your Spidey sense is always tingling... you will never convince me that the masses are just as aware even nearly as often. FIVE SECONDS is all that's needed; against "regular" players, that's plenty of time to get the first hit in.

Yes, I'm elevating myself as a God among players, right? Be sensible here. Your sarcasm and lame Spiderman references aren't as useful as you think. There's nothing that I do that other players can't do if they tried.

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I'm not trying to create perfection.

Bull. You obviously believe you've created a perfect skill here. If you didn't believe that, you wouldn't be talking about how powerful and dynamic the skill is. You wouldn't be going so far as to point to unrelated FPS experiences and claim they're proof something like this would work in GW when it clearly wouldn't. If you didn't believe you've created a perfect skill, or achieved perfection, you absolutely would not trying to pass off Incognito as something that doesn't turn Assassins into prototypical Sprint Warriors.

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Which is the chance you'll take that all eyes are on you, and that sometimes NO eyes are on you. i mean how can you argue such a ridiculous concept?

8v8. I know what Assassins can do, even just using regular skills. If people don't know what Assassins can do, they will, and then I guarantee you'll have at least a Necro throwing a hex or condition your way. And I'm not talking about "all eyes" being on the Assassin. I'm talking about the right eyes being on the Assassin. A Necro will ruin your day. In fact, a minimally comptent Necro should always be keeping an eye on any Assassins on the field, long before the Assassin does anything--because Assassins are so explosive when it comes to combat options.

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A Mesmer eyeing a spell caster for a potential interrupt can be distracted even for three seconds to not notice a disguised "friendly' with the same color radar dot who Spirit Walked in just before he comes behind and attacks him.

Which is why I'm talking about the right eyes on the Assassin. Mesmers can do it, but if they're specced into CasterHate anyway, who the hell cares that you can Incognito your way in to gank them? Congratulations. You just killed a character that was never even looking at you in the first place. lol. Killing the Necro that's specced into WarHate, who's been keeping tabs on you from the very start of the match, however? If you can do that, then I'll give you a cookie.

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Such is the chance one takes using these tactics. If priority one is heavily guarded, even specifically for this tactic by hanging back looking for Back Stabbers, then priority 2 or 3 may be fighting on the front lines. You may not even need a disguise. You learn playing sports that sometimes you take what the opponents will give you.

Funny, that, because the Necro WarHate tends to protect the Monks, so if your Assassin decides it's more efficient to attack the Warriors up ahead, the Necro doesn't have to worry about you anymore, if your Warriors are still running in, that is. If that's not happening, then switching targets isn't doing anything to help you. It's just making that Necro's job that much easier.

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Lol, ok... Assassins are just Warriors. Gotcha.

When your suggestions here are having them just run up to a target? Yes, your Assassin becomes a pretend Warrior. You might as well be playing a Sprint Warrior if you're so in love with Incognito. lol

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Lol, take your ball and go home then.

I won't be making any more major changes.

For now, nothing needs changing. Thanks for the input.

Don't expect anyone to take these skills seriously then. You still don't see how 100% Criticals is absurd, regardless of the "balance" penalties, and you never will. Let's hope this skill makes it in-game so it can get nerfed faster than you can defend it.

arredondo · Mar 29, 2006, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Now I get it. First it's so overpowered that it needs to be balanced. Then it's so worthless of a strat no one will fall for it. Next there is already a killer Assassin build that already slays really fast so what's the point. But this one is so strong, it uhm, kills too quickly. Of course disguises and radar color camoflauge is a waste of time with no obvious way of fooling the infinitely-observant masses out there. Keeping in mind that the masses playing other titles are obviously no where near as intelligent as they fall for it all the time. I've learned that this Assassin is always sprinting and running, despite me not using anything close to those words once. Except when he's walking backwards I guess.

It's a Warrior that can insta-kill with these overpowered abilities!

It's merely a useless blind-sider of the weak because otherwise observant eyes and shutdown are everywhere!

Despite all of this, it'll be nerfed the second it's released. And as worthless of an idea it is, it appears you love it so much that I inspired you to make one of your very own in a separate thread. ** Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. **

Genius of a post. Thanks for sharing.

Kool Pajamas · Mar 29, 2006, 02:09 AM // 02:09

Hmmm.....nope. No invisibility period. Imbalanced.

Siren · Mar 29, 2006, 02:51 AM // 02:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

Now I get it.

Not really. lol

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First it's so overpowered that it needs to be balanced.

Shadow Stalker (at 7 second duration with a 45-second recharge, plus 75% speed reduction) was the first topic. You'll find that I loved the idea, but felt the skill needed tweaking--and the tweaking was a buff.

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Then it's so worthless of a strat no one will fall for it.

Incognito was the focus of those points.

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Next there is already a killer Assassin build that already slays really fast so what's the point.

The set-up time for Incognito sucks. It gimps the build and doesn't offer any real alternative to the current builds we're seeing.

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But this one is so strong, it uhm, kills too quickly.

When you have a 100% Critical strike rate for your newer variations on Shadow Stalker? I'd say it's too damn powerful. And others have, as well.

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Of course disguises and radar color camoflauge is a waste of time with no obvious way of fooling the infinitely-observant masses out there. Keeping in mind that the masses playing other titles are obviously no where near as intelligent as they fall for it all the time.

If there's one thing I've learned in this game, it's that the idiot masses rarely determine suitable gameplay directions. We see the mindless ranting in Riverside Inn, right? Somebody whining about a Ranger babysitting them? How Rangers need to get nerfed, when they really don't? Same idea here. The whiners are simply morons with no real idea how to play, so they should never factor into a discussion about skill balance. lol

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I've learned that this Assassin is always sprinting and running, despite me not using anything close to those words once. Except when he's walking backwards I guess.

I'm very interested in seeing how the Incognito Assassin can get in range within the span of 15 seconds, given he or she needs at least 2-4 seconds to prep for the skill itself. Pretty much 5 seconds to prep the skill, then you're walking backwards to your enemies...and walking backwards isn't fast enough to get you where you need to go.

Oh, you can Spirit Walk. That's provided they're using any spirits at all. If they are, go you. You've just Spirit Walked behind enemy lines to use one skill the only time you'll ever be able to use it during a match, because right after you use it, they're onto you. Then that skill becomes a dead slot for the rest of the match. That's not a fair trade-off at all for being able to get a single kill when it probably won't even matter--or be necessary.

Why wouldn't it even be necessary? If you've saved the skill toward the end of the match, and have only a few enemies left, seems to me your team is in pretty good shape, and the battle is basically over. With less combatants on the field, the chaos that Incognito depends on is decreased dramatically, so there's no point in using it there.

There's also no point in using it there because if your team is in such a powerful position, you should have plenty of DPS available to deal with a few errant Warriors or Rangers.

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It's a Warrior that can insta-kill with these overpowered abilities!

There's no difference between the Incognito Assassin and a Sprint Warrior. You're playing them in exactly the same way: a character who is doing nothing more than running up to their target to perform a gank.

If you forgot about Incognito and went back to something remotely resembling your original Shadow Stalker, then you'd be suggesting a skill type that actually changes the dynamics of the game, rather than just keeps all the characters right there on the field, "disguised" in a weak costume change or not.

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It's merely a useless blind-sider of the weak because otherwise observant eyes and shutdown are everywhere!

If a skill exploits the weak players so easily, how is it a good skill? It's a good skill when experienced players need to work at counters to it. If only the morons of the game fall for it, it's a completely useless skill. Incognito will only catch dumb players because only dumb players miss Warriors coming in...or walking in, or coming in backwards, etc.

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Despite all of this, it'll be nerfed the second it's released.

With 100% Criticals? Yes, some of the lamer versions of Shadow Stalker here will get nerfed hard if any one of them makes it into the game.

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And as worthless of an idea it is, it appears you love it so much that I inspired you to make one of your very own in a separate thread. ** Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. **

Yes, because I like the original idea behind Shadow Stalker. I detest the crap you're pushing out throughout the course of this thread.

---

I applaud you on your efforts to try to spin my posts into mass contradictions, because it's fun being a spin-doctor, I know, lol, but as anyone can see from my reply here, I've remained pretty consistent with the focus of my criticisms and suggestions.

At the start of the thread, I felt that Shadow Stalker wasn't designed properly, that a 75% speed reduction was too much, that its duration was too low...that the skill was underpowered in those regards.

And my suggestions reflected the need to make the skill a viable tactic. Included in those suggestions were less of a speed reduction, a longer duration, a shorter recharge, and a minor speed boost at the start of the skill, so the Assassin can at least get to the target in time, and then subsequently vanish into thin air. It would dramatically raise the tension and contribute to whatever "role-playing" people want to see with Assassins. Assassins are masters of the shadows; it is only fitting they can hide in them for short periods of time.

When Incognito was introduced after the fact, and Shadow Stalker subsequently watered-down to become just some more powerful version of Critical Eye (Critical Eye being plenty powerful now currently, with no need for a "better" version of it), I began voicing those concerns.

Incognito is no improvement to the game, and it offers little to no actual new battle strategies, because all it comes down to is a Warrior running up to his target.

Nowhere is there any of the originality that comes with a skill like Shadow Stalker earlier in the thread.

With the first versions of Shadow Stalker, there was a gameplay dynamic that actually fit with what we see Assassins doing curently.

With Incognito, however, this is not the case, because instead of any type of Shadow techniques the Assassins are known for, we're given what amounts to a lame James Bond/Mission Impossible Spy Disguise skill. Mission Impossible sucks, and James Bond isn't much better. lol

arredondo · Mar 29, 2006, 04:26 AM // 04:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kool Pajamas

Hmmm.....nope. No invisibility period. Imbalanced.

Actually you are never invisible, just disguised. The radar map shows where you are, but the color will change once you switch outfits. The normal ways of attacking an Assassin in disguise work fine if you know one is in your presence. Targeting with an attack or spell cast will remove the outfit.