Curse

LifeInfusion · Mar 31, 2006, 01:05 AM // 01:05

An Analysis of Profession Choice: Why True Balance is Remote
By Life Infusion

INTRODUCTION/MOTIVE/PURPOSE
The dilemma suffered by all Guild Wars players is this: there are only so many character slots, limited by the server space and bandwidth. Therefore, we must choose some of the professions as secondaries for unlocking purposes. It would be all fine and dandy if it were simple as just choosing any primary profession and pairing it with a secondary profession. However, there are numerous ramifications for choosing a secondary profession that does not coexist well with your primary profession include energy management, being shutdown extremely easily, not getting into groups, and dieing quite often.
At the moment, there are some notably bad combinations for Player Versus Enemy (PvE) environments and some even unplayable for Player Versus Player (PvP). This will become worse in the Factions chapter. Then again, even if we had all the professions as primaries, there would be a tendency to veer away from ones that are not favorable so this would hold even if we had one slot per primary. You do have limited freedom in choosing workable, resourceful combinations. Although this might be my opinion, I tried to make it as unbiased as possible.
On to the actual criticism.

INSTIGATION
It can be agreed upon that stereotypes of classes are as follows:
W= “Tank” (i.e. Paladin), physical damage dealer
E= “Nuker”, elemental damage dealer
Mo= Healer, Protector
N= “Battery”, Spiteful Spirit and curses user, Minion Master
Me= “Interrupt”, shutdown
Ranger=Trapper, Barrage (Physical Damage dealer), “Trapper”
Assassin= *Teleporting physical damage dealer?
Ritualist= *Possibly spirit spammer?
Having this set aside, we can evaluate the possibility of secondaries.

THE WORST CHOICES MADE include Warrior and Ranger as secondaries.

WARRIOR (W)
Anything with Warrior as secondary profession is utterly shallow or lacking. Missing absorption, the strength attribute's natural armor penetration, and high armor means a secondary Warrior can do little more than attack with a weapon, equip a shield and/or use defensive skills, or simply not use any Warrior skills (which would defeat the point of a secondary profession). As of now, there are few incentives as a Warrior secondary because you cannot get above 10 levels in a weapon attribute or Tactics attribute without heavy investment of attribute points. Most builds using Warrior secondary utilize conjures/weapon boosts like Judge's Insight.
-The most viable choice is the "thumper" R/W and a hammer, but other than that few builds would work well in an enchantment shattering and hostile PvE environment. After all, there must some way to compensate for the loss of armor level. Also, Expertise affects Warrior shouts, stances, and attacks. Evasion stances of the Ranger also assist with the decreased armor level.
-In Factions A/W *might* be a good choice because of its added armor against physical damage (which also reduces bleeding and deep wound) and its defensive skills. However, Assassin skills are befitting enough and Warrior skills would not add too much to the skill bar (especially when using Dagger as a weapon and not Sword, Axe, or Hammer).
-Necromancers with 70AL armor (Tormentor’s or Necrotic Sets) might also work, but there is little incentive to do so, because it does not make sense to use melee on a caster and there are little ways to keep safe. Shadow of Fear, Enfeebling Blood, Insidious Parasite and other debuffing skills work but they must be maintained or you will suffer a beating.
-Elementalists can use Ward Against Melee or Ward Against Harm as those can be upheld even with enchantment shattering. However, you are seldom stationary, so that is not that viable and you MAY be interrupted while creating wards. Fire Magic is out of the question due to lack of any defensive skills.
-Mo/W must rely on enchantments and are little good for anything BUT farming with the infamous 55 builds. They simply use Bonetti's Defense and Tactics defenses, such as Balanced Stance, if not 55ing. If anything, Mo/W’s would be better off with other secondaries.
-Me/W use Illusionary Weapon and that is about it. When the enchantment is stripped, you get a low armor Warrior with sub par weapon damage. There is almost no reason to go Me/W unless your idea of fun is going up close and interrupting with close quarters interrupts such as Distracting Blow, Disrupting Chop, Savage Slash, Skull Crack (elite), etc. while taking roughly double the damage of the converse of the profession (W/Me). A W/Me is more viable if you plan to do close range interrupt and shutdown or even energy denial (“Fear Me!” and energy draining).
-Rt/W seems to be pointless. In the Factions chapter, Weapon Spells of the Ritualist class will also factor in but it will be unlikely Rt/W will be viable due to armor.

RANGER (R)
A Ranger secondary is minimal, though not as minimal as Warrior. The only skills useful are Wilderness Survival skills or Beast Mastery. It does not make sense to use Marksmanship because you have no Expertise and cannot pump Marksmanship above 12 and therefore have no way to maintaining energy effectively while shooting consecutively due to loss of 10-12 energy from not using a focus item or offhand.
Pet skills might be useful, but running a Beast Mastery build on a non-Ranger means there will be 12 B.M. at best and horrid ability to use pet skills due to lack of Expertise attribute. The rest all are preparations/bow skills/pet skills. Pets are damaging to casters because if they die your skills are disabled for a few seconds.
For casters the only skills I see being used (not including secondary Ranger Beast Masters) are Melandru's Resilience (Elite), Troll Unguent, Healing Spring, Storm Chaser, Symbiosis, Energizing Wind, Tiger's Fury (on Warriors), Frozen Soil, Greater Conflagration (elite), Serpent's Quickness, Winter, Dryder's Defenses, Nature's Renewal, Quickening Zephyr, and Winnowing. Antidote Signet is a mediocre skill but if you do not have a monk with condition removal, it works.
-W/R have no way of using a bow and a majority of the skills with the low energy pool and lack of energy regeneration. Therefore, the only skills viable include Apply Poison (with a low energy usage build such as axe), Troll Unguent, Serpent’s Quickness, Melandru’s Resilience (elite), Frozen Soil, and Storm Chaser (for energy gain). Antidote Signet is useful since Blindness is the worst condition to have as a warrior. Warrior Beast Masters are not impossible and are actually the best secondary Ranger profession Beast Masters due to their high armor and their close combat range (meaning the pet dieing is not as much of an issue). In addition, since pet AI (logic) follows your targeting and since you will be running with your pet along side you, it will be less likely you aggravate a whole bunch of monsters.
-Assassins, like warriors, can use Apply Poison, Melandru’s Resilience (elite), Serpent’s Quickness, Dryder’s Defenses and Storm Chaser. However, since Assassins do not benefit that much form these skills it is not that advisable because you will end up using mostly assassin skills except for 1 or 2 skills from the Ranger profession.
- For casters the only skills I see being used (not including secondary Ranger Beast Masters) are Melandru's Resilience (Elite), Troll Unguent, Healing Spring, Storm Chaser, Symbiosis, Energizing Wind, Tiger's Fury (on Warriors), Frozen Soil, Greater Conflagration (elite), Serpent's Quickness, Winter, Dryder's Defenses, Nature's Renewal, Quickening Zephyr, and Winnowing. Antidote Signet is a mediocre skill but if you do not have a monk with condition removal, it works.
-Necromancers might be able to use the pet as a source of minions and energy (Soul Reaping triggers when it dies as well). Note that Order of Pain and Order of the Vampire do NOT buff the pets as they are considered allies but not party members. Again, using a bow is not viable. Winter can be used alongside with Spinal Shivers for continued interruption. Winnowing can be used with a Minion Master for extra damage and Healing Spring can be used to heal minions. Serpent’s Quickness might help with recharges. Melandru’s Resilience might add energy regeneration when combined with Verata’s Sacrifice (which transfers all conditions on minions to you).
-Elementalists and Mesmers might be able to trap or use Troll Unguent (as they have no real self heals), Winter (to convert elemental damage), Serpent’s Quickness, Edge of Extinction (for added AOE damage in PvE) Energizing Wind, and Quickening Zephyr. The effectiveness of such builds is questionable.
-Monks can use Melandru’s Resilience (for energy regeneration), Quickening Zephyr, Serpent’s Quickness, Dryder’s Defenses, Storm Chaser, and Symbiosis (with enchantments). Healing Spring might help, but the easily interrupted aspect will not be a good thing, especially since Monks are a priority target of foes.
-Ritualists are possible benefactors of Quickening Zephyr and Serpent’s Quickness, since binding rituals recharge slow. Spirits of the Ranger benefit from the Spawning Power attribute as well (giving 4% extra health per rank in Spawning Power).

ASSASSIN (A)
Like the Warrior, very minimal when it comes to dagger mastery because armor and runes plays heavily in weaponry. What is different is that since there is only one line dealing with weaponry. Shadow arts and Deadly arts are more well-rounded than tactics. Teleportation allows for diverse strategies to be used, such as an E/A that waits for enemies to engage on melee classes and then launch Point blank attacks and teleport away. Shadow Arts is good because it allows for self heals and favorable placement on the field (even as a secondary).
-W/A would be a very high percentage of the secondary assassins. With the high armor level, more hits can be taken. The Strength attribute gives a small percentage of armor penetration per rank, which would help replace Assassins’ Critical Strikes primary attribute. Since many of the skills deal with melee range and attacks, this would also benefit from skills such as Mirrored Stance, Dancing Daggers, Expose Defenses (as a supplement for Warrior’s Cunning and Rigor Mortis), Iron Palm, Mark of Death, Shameful Fear, Expunge Enchantments, Scorpion Wire, Siphon Strength, Assassin’s Promise, and Dark Prison.
-E/A might be viable, using Shadow Arts to Point Blank Area of Effect (PBAoE) the enemy and teleport back after the assault is complete. Shadow Arts also has healing and evasion skills and the Elementalist is needy of healing skills. The large energy pool of the Elementalist means lack of the Critical Strikes primary attribute might not be as bad as it would be for other classes. If an Elementalist were to wield daggers, Earth Magic could be used alongside wards. The major advantage as opposed to any other secondary would be the teleportation away when in danger.
-Mesmers can make use of debuffs such as Shadow Shroud, Beguiling Haze. Viper’s Defense, Shadow Refuge, Heart of Shadow, and other defensive measures also help. Enduring Toxin could be combined with Crippling Anguish, Imagined Burden, or Ethereal Burden to do some health degeneration when snaring. .

NECROMANCER (N)
A Necromancer secondary has access to condition removal and health stealing. Minion-master on a secondary is not good because of lack of Soul Reaping and the fact that you can only have 12 Death Magic. Curses has many useful combinations with other casters as well as rangers (spinal shivers, weaken armor and mark of pain come to mind).
-W/N can make use of plague touch as cheap, spammable condition removal. Debuffs such as Mark of Pain, Rigor Mortis, Rend Enchantments, or Weaken Armor can also bolster the primary.
-E/N can make use of blood magic for self healing, although at a decreased effectiveness. Curses can also be used to debuff as a support role. The problem is the most dangerous situations include the dazed condition and hexes. Degen is also a problem. Necromancer alleviates some but there is no hex removal. Many 25 energy necromancer skills are more usable when on a Elementalist (in PvP especially).
-Me/N can effectively remove conditions and hexes. It can also use fast casting to the advantage of casting cheap 5 to 10 energy necromancer skills that have long cast times like Weaken Armor or Well of Power.
- Mo/N can use blood magic for wells or for energy management via Offering of Blood.
-R/N, similar to the W/N, can use debuffs like weaken armor or mark of pain to unleash extra damage.
-Rt/N can use the Soul Reaping Primary attribute skills to create higher health minions. However, the Death Magic attribute will not be able to be pumped as high and the minions will have lower armor and attack. Curses can be used to debuff. Enchantment removal is a big help.
-A/N can use the debuffs and condition/enchantment removal. Other than that, assassins do not really benefit much.

ELEMENTALIST (E)
An Elementalist Secondary is pretty good considering that many of the skills are scalable even at low attributes. In addition, all casters can use the glyph of lesser energy, glyph of renewal, glyph of energy, glyph of concentration, and glyph of sacrifice.
W/E can use Earth magic wards and buffs or water magic snares. Fire magic as Point black area of effect is also common. R/E can use conjures in conjunction with barrage to have added damage. Mesmers commonly use Elementalist secondary for fast casting of Elementalist skills that are low in energy.
-N/E can use Glyph of Renewal to recharge Verata’s Sacrifice in a Minion master build. Water magic can be used with Spinal Shivers for continued interruption. Wards are useful since Necromancers have excellent PvE energy management and can use them often.
-Mo/E can use Glyph of renewal in conjunction with high recharge time skills to increase efficiency. It can also use Glyph of lesser energy to mitigate energy cost on high-energy cost skills. Obsidian flesh is a nice alternative to Spellbreaker. Wards are a major help to any team, and as a monk they would help decrease healing and protecting loads. However, the energy cost of the skills means only a couple can be used at most.
-R/E often are used in barrage builds and a conjure element. Rarely are they used for any other purpose other than damage.
-W/E typically uses buffs from the earth line or snares from the water line. The usage of a W/E is often very shallow since you cannot remove conditions or hexes, so you will be dependent on teammates for that.
-Me/E can be used for fast casting off long cast time skills or simple spamming of low cost skills.
-Rt/E can use Elemental wards or air damage in conjunction with channeling magic.
-A/E are another shallow case like W/E. Perhaps point blank fire magic can help with damage dealing potential.

MONK (Mo)
A Monk secondary is minimal as a healer unless you are Elementalist or Necromancer because of energy concerns and lack of Divine Favor. Protection and Smiting Prayers are another story because they do not require that high of an attribute to actually be effective. The ONLY reason why there are so many monk secondaries is because of condition/hex removal and unlimited resurrection unlike other professions that only have resurrection signet. In fact, the ever-popular W/Mo is usually only using Balthazar's spirit, mending, Strength of Honor, vigorous spirit, mend ailment, healing hands, and healing breeze. Most secondary monk healers only use Resurrection skills, heal other, Word of Healing (elite), heal party (a skill that DOES NOT benefit from Divine Favor), and healing breeze. Me/Mo Resmers only use resurrection with fast casting. R/Mo has access to smiting (judge's insight and Strength of honor to boost their shots) and hex removal.
-W/Mo is infamous. Monk’s condition and hex removal makes for this popular class. In addition, degeneration healing via Healing Breeze counters many of the hexes that kill warriors through armor ignoring damage. Skills like Judge’s Insight and Balthazar’s Spirit boost damage and provide adrenaline/energy (respectively). Damage mitigating enchantments on warriors are RAMPANT. I must say that mending is pointless in practicality on a warrior but it seems to be a favorite skill among warrior/monks.Often times mend ailment or remove hex can be better.
-A/Mo arguably can be the best for the Assassin secondaries since assassins have mediocre condition removal and no hex removal whatsoever. Monk skills can mitigate the damage taken, as these are front-line melee fighters with slightly better than caster armor. Like the Warrior, it can make use of enchantments such as Judge’s Insight, Balthazar’s Spirit, or Strength of Honor to increase effectiveness.
-E/Mo is probably second most infamous but as fire nukers pre-Aoe “nerf”. Since there is a long recharge time, spells as healing breeze, heal area, and heal party can be used to assist the team. Protection life barrier Elementalist have also been seen in action as are earth Elementalists wielding protective spirit to solo farm with earth magic armor buffs.
-N/Mo is arguably the best minion master because of one skill: Heal Area. Other than “MMing”, monk secondary can be used as hex removal and damage mitigation.
-R/Mo can make use of judge’s insight and strength of honor in conjunction with barrage. It can also bolster the primary by providing hex/condition removal that the primary does not have.
-Me/Mo is the infamous Resmer, the fast casting resurrection machine that uses the mesmer primary attribute to reduce cast time. Other than than that it can be used for damage mitigation and condition removal.
-Rt/Mo has no real use for Monk secondary other than hex removal. The Restoration Magic of the Ritualist has equivalents of the monk skills in one form or another.

RITUALIST (Rt)
Possibly a replacement for Monk secondary since it also has resurrection. Actually rivals the monk secondary in healing power because for the same attribute in healing prayers, Restoration magic can heal close to it, and has other effects as well. It can deal damage via Channeling also. Communing is not a good idea on a Ritualist secondary due to lowered attributes and no access to the Spawning Power primary attribute.
-A/Rt will probably be rampant due to the want of both professions’ skills. Howeverm the real use will be for weapon spells.
-W/Rt will also be a candidate for weapon spells usage.
-R/Rt will be a viable spirit-spammer though Oath shot. In addition it can use weapon spells along with bows.
-E/Rt can make use of restoration magic to remove conditions and heal party members. The large energy pool would allow high usage of weapon spells. Rituals might not be a good idea due to long cast time and no spawning power.
-Me/Rt could probably do fast cast resurrection with the resurrection skills. In addition, they probably could make use of spirits.
- Mo/Rt are probably mediocre unless using channeling for damage. The general cost for most skills would hurt energy reserves.

MESMER (Me)
A Mesmer secondary is rather good, considering Inspiration magic solves just about everyone's problems (energy, anti-interrupts, damage mitigation) without severe attribute points being paid. Domination is mediocre on anything but Elementalist and Necromancer due to the nature of domination magic needing consistent monitoring of foes' actions. Monks cannot really do this and rangers do not have much energy to devote. Ranger/Mesmer usually means usage of the interrupts or anti-interrupts (for trapping). Mesmer is the best pick of all secondaries for any class considering there is something for everyone. The Mesmer primary attribute fast casting decreases the amount of time it takes to cast things, so a secondary mesmer using low cast time mesmer skills would not be in such a bad position, unless an attribute greater than 12 was wanted.
-All casters can make use of inspiration magic stances to mitigate damage or just use inspiration magic skills as energy management.
-An E/Me is common due to the use of the skill echo to duplicate meteor shower as a nuker.
-A Mo/Me often uses inspiration magic for energy gain. Hexbreaker can be used to avoid hexes and is valuable to PvP monks.
-A N/Me uses either hexes and debuffs or inspiration magic to regain energy or mitigate damage.
-An assassin can use mesmer skills to hex the opponent and point blank interrupt.
-A warrior can use mesmer skills to mitigate damage and remove harmful hexes.
-A ranger can use inspiration magic to avoid being interrupted, or become a better interrupter through domination magic in conjunction with interrupting bow skills as distracting shot.

SUMMARY
Few skills are effective when the class is a secondary profession and not a primary. Many times, even though skills are unlinked or not a primary attribute, the effectiveness is drastically reduced. Examples include Healing Touch and all Minions.

CONCLUSION
There clearly has to be consideration to what skills are put into the primary attribute and/or nonlinked attribute lines. Some skills, despite being unlinked, are clearly unusable by a majority of other classes. In addition, the usefulness of some classes as secondaries is rather horrid.
As for Factions, not much can be done about skills other than tweaking attribute lines and moving skills over and/or making attribute scale less after hitting 11 or 12 attribute levels.

S H I N O B I · Mar 31, 2006, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Nicely done. Very informative! I'll definitely want to check out this thread when carefully choosing a 2nd profession for my next Factions character.... Currently, an A/Me is sounding quite good...

Ken Dei · Mar 31, 2006, 04:27 AM // 04:27

A/E would be a bit better then you give credit, they usually work in a very tight space before leaving, so wards are a big help. Also:

Death's Charge + Shockwave + Recall, you can warp in deliver, above 100 dmg and get out in under a few seconds. Then Sliver Armor, wickedly wonderful 1v1 defensive skill, throws Empathy out the proverbial window in comparison.

But overall I think the A/Mo with degen removal and protection spells will be best.

What really offends me right now is how powerful a R/A is. Mixing Expertise, Better Armor, better defensive skills, and the already low cost Assassin combos, a R/A will out do any A primary without challenge.

Thus the Assassin will now be religated to a mainly secondary class because it's to weak in armor, and you get all the real advantages of playing one, even as a secondary class. The only way to make a A prime worth your time is to make Critical Hits gain a good deal more energy then it does now and increase the armor to 75. Then it would be able to compete efficiency wise vs an R/A.

In fact you could say that of any A/?? combo. The reverse can do the job BETTER in every case. Why?

Because you get to use all the weapon skills and teleportation skills without having to sacrifice a better Unique Attribute.

Winterclaw · Mar 31, 2006, 06:56 AM // 06:56

Not bad for starters, but I think you think inside the box a little too much. While a Me/W wouldn't stand up well against a warrior, just think how the other team's caster will feel getting wailed on by a domination mesmer with a big sword? Healing signet, if you aren't getting attacked, would be better than whatever self healing an elementlist would have normally and it doesn't cost energy. Likewise a monk can use tactics for a little self defense.

The key to a good class combo is knowing its strengths and weaknesses and knowing how to use it. A skilled player would be able to get some use out of any of the combonations provided he knows how and when to use it.

Legendary Battousai · Mar 31, 2006, 07:31 AM // 07:31

guild wars is a team game, not a solo game. each team (for an 8 player party) is provided with 1600 attribute points and 64 skills, locked at 200 attributes per player and 8 skills (obviously) so it seems pointless to argue which secondary is best becuase combinations of skills from someones secondary when they have extra attribute points to spend may be extremely beneficial to their team, where as running the needed skill on their character would become a detriment to the team due to requiring another professions skills and/or not having enough attributes to still be able to effectivly perform the build's duties. this of corse is very general, if needed I could provide examples, but it is best for you to figure it out yourself to save my keyboard from the extra typing damage

LifeInfusion · Apr 01, 2006, 01:41 AM // 01:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Battousai

this of corse is very general, if needed I could provide examples, but it is best for you to figure it out yourself to save my keyboard from the extra typing damage

But you must admit a Resmer resses faster than a Monk but can't heal well due to lack of Divine Favor.

The point is that certain combinations add MORE to the team. "There is no I in Team" but there is a greater level of efficiency in certain builds. For example, a W/E might not have blind/weakness/snare removal causing him to do less damage or add additional load on the monks in the team. This energy used to remove bad things off him could have been used otherwise.

Another example would be any caster with warrior secondary. A caster using warrior skills and weapon suffers from high damage from monsters that do physical. This adds added stress on the team and also doesn't do as much as a normal warrior would due to strength attribute and higher weapon mastery through a minor/major/superior weapon rune. Now, there might some special builds, but this is a general concensus that certain secondaries do not make sense. I mean, other than balanced stance and bonetti's defense (and some tactics skills), do you think any non-meleeing monk uses warrior skills? It wouldn't be effective, and it would not make sense.

A minionmaster E/N is another example. Sure you have a large energy pool. But your Death Magic cannot be pumped as high so your minions die faster, do less damage, and take more damage.

Certain attributes just do NOT work as secondary profession.

JR · Apr 01, 2006, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

An Analysis of Profession Choice: Why True Balance is Remote
By Life Infusion

No offence intended, but your post is a hugely shallow and basic look at class choices when it comes to PvP. You make generalisations that are a pretty off point, the one that springs to mind being warrior secondary being basicly a bad choice. That is entirely situational, and there are many cases I can think of where it simply isn't true.

All of these things presented in the form of an article as truth basicly undermines the entire thing.

Avatar of Melandru · Apr 01, 2006, 09:27 AM // 09:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Dei

What really offends me right now is how powerful a R/A is. Mixing Expertise, Better Armor, better defensive skills, and the already low cost Assassin combos, a R/A will out do any A primary without challenge.

Thus the Assassin will now be religated to a mainly secondary class because it's to weak in armor, and you get all the real advantages of playing one, even as a secondary class. The only way to make a A prime worth your time is to make Critical Hits gain a good deal more energy then it does now and increase the armor to 75. Then it would be able to compete efficiency wise vs an R/A.

In fact you could say that of any A/?? combo. The reverse can do the job BETTER in every case. Why?

Because you get to use all the weapon skills and teleportation skills without having to sacrifice a better Unique Attribute.

QFT.

Unfortunately, this won't stop every second Canthan character being an Assassin...

LifeInfusion · Apr 01, 2006, 01:29 PM // 13:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

No offence intended, but your post is a hugely shallow and basic look at class choices when it comes to PvP. You make generalisations that are a pretty off point, the one that springs to mind being warrior secondary being basicly a bad choice. That is entirely situational, and there are many cases I can think of where it simply isn't true.

All of these things presented in the form of an article as truth basicly undermines the entire thing.

This is reference to the game as a whole, mainly PvE. PvP is harder to dictate as a generalization because there ARE unique builds that stray from typical usage of classes. Illusionary weaponry comes to mind here. But in PvE, you would be shattered in minutes if not seonds if you are in any level 20 zone with mesmers. The point being, some builds and skills are unsuitable for use in PvE.

You could argue some builds are playable. However, the drawbacks of the builds sometimes outweigh their benefits. An example is the post someone made in the Elementalist forum of an Elementalist trapper. Sure you have greater energy pool, but Expertise is too good to pass up, not to mention you cannot use runes so to do decent damage you have to sacrifice many attribute points.

I know there are sweeping generalizations. But you have to admit that the spectrum of skill sets basically limits your warrior secondary to minimal utility. I know for a fact that bonetti's or balanced stance could help out a monk. But are the tactics invested as good as say, inspiration magic, or earth magic, where you have a larger amount of skills that are useful to a monk? Not to mention roughly every other player will not invite you for FoW or UW groups because they think you are a 55 monk...

The reason I called it an analysis of Profession choice is because most players do view classes this way. It is evident in thr view of necromancers evolving from a blood ritual "battery" to a Curses "ss necro". We could always find people that deviate from the general public view. In fact, I myself do not play fire "nuker" and play earth warden.
---
I am sorry for the somewhat misleading title but...
Notice this is in the suggestion forum. It was not moved into here by a Moderator. I put it here myself.

Skarjak · Apr 01, 2006, 03:08 PM // 15:08

I like how you always say "Oh this class as a secondary is not good, you can only use the skills: *proceeds to name about 5-10 skills*".

Due to the limited amount of skillslots that we have, having only 5 useful skills in our secondary is in no way a bad thing. Honestly, when are you gonna have more than 3-4 skills from your secondary? Not often. Even one skill can be useful.

One of the guils I was in had an air spiker build in which all the eles were mesmer secondaries. The only skills we brought were signet of weariness (to do an "energy bomb") and mantra of recall. It was very effective. Only having 2 skills in your secondary is not such a bad thing.

By the way, I somewhat disagree about the claim that assassins will never be good primaries. If you're gonna make a primary assassin, you have to use his primary attribute to justify it. Criticals is an awesome attribute, in my opinion. It has many useful skills. I made a build during the FPE that centered on the use of criticals, and it was very successful. Try bringing critical eye (you do an insame amount of critical hits and regain one more energy per hit), critical strike (dual attack that results in a critical hit), and critical defense (58% chance to block attacks, lasts 6 seconds, recharges every time you do a critical hit). Use moebius strike to recharge critical strike when you need it.

Of course if you dont invest in your primary, being a primary assassin is useless. But there is potential in their ability to do a lot of critical strikes.

Hunter Sharparrow · Apr 01, 2006, 03:57 PM // 15:57

I have a W/R and I think its great. Since troll unguant is a skill and not a spell like healing breeze, it can't be stripped, shattered, dessicrated etc. The only down fall is it can be easily interupted but so can healing sig and if you use a blocking or evading stance (since both classes have plenty) it really only leaves mesmers being able to interupt. Put points into beast mastery and bring a lvl20 pet, suddenly you no longer offer one tank in the party but two. Myself I don't bother with the pet (although I have a lvl20 bear) and use apply poison with sever artery to be a hp degen tank. The added gash lowers the targets hp by 20% therefore speeding up the degen by 20%.

You serriously think mo secondary is useless unless your either ele or necro? W/Mo is popular for more than the remove hex/condition spells and mending. The monk skills don't cost a whole lot of energy and since having glads with one piece of knights or ascalon for the all around dmg absorbtion, you'll have more than enough energy to heal or protect yourself. Bonetti's defense, essence bond and balthazar's spirit are good for keeping the energy high, just save the melee guys for last and kill the spell users first.

R/Me is another good but not often seen combo. It would make a nice ranged hp degen with apply poison and conjure phantasm or would also make an excellent interupter. I plan to use mesmer as my rangers secondary once im done even though I have a ranger necro (doing all the class specific quests now that every secondary is unlocked for him) he is actually a 100% ranger. With both 15 attribute quests done, I don't have a single point in the secondary attributes. Never had either and got every mission, bonus and quest (except for the necro quests) up to the volcano islands completed that way.

Iraqalypse Now · Apr 09, 2006, 05:19 AM // 05:19

I think a far more useful approach to looking at secondary classes is by distinguishing between different reasons to use secondary classes; "flipping" primary and secondary classes to take advantage of a different set of armor/runes/primary attribute, using the secondary class for 1-2 skills that provide utility, self-healing, survivability, or energy management, or by using a distinct combination of skills between classes.

Here is a breif exploration of this idea:

Useful utility from each class:

Monk - Has condition and hex removal, as well as some skills that really benefit from energy managment and not so much from divine favor. Draw Conditions, Convert Hexes, Heal Party, and Marytr [E] are the most prominent examples. Heal Area and Healing Breeze are often used on Ele/Mo flag runner builds, mostly because such ele/monks are already specced in Healing Prayers for their combination of Ether Prodigy [E] with Heal Party. Contemplation of Purity is situationally useful when there are a lot of party-wide enchantments in your team build.

Mesmer - The inspiration line is rather useful for secondary professions, with hex removal, enchantment removal, energy managment, and utility. Inspired Hex and Drain Enchantment are some of the most commonly used, since they help give energy for doing things with the primary class, as well as provide a side benefit. Mantra of Recall and Energy Drain are good elite energy managment options. There are also some useful stances - Mantra of Resolve, Mantra of Concentration, Mantra of Inscriptions, Hex Breaker, and Distortion are the best examples.

Necromancer - A secondary class for necromancer is usually for a very specific function. Consume Corpse on a mes/nec is the gold standard for corpse control, and Offering of Blood is extremely powerful energy management. Plague Touch is nice for condition management on a warrior. Other than that, casters will tap into the necro secondary for specific skills that are necessary in the team build, or skills that have a combination factor with the rest of their bar.

Elementalist - honestly, the elementalist's skills are generally too greedy with energy issues to have much variety of uses as an addition to a primary class. There are a few efficient counterexamples - Shock and Gale are about the only examples though. Fastcasting mes/ele using energy management from the ele line (attunements usually) are used somewhat. Glyph of Energy [E] and Glyph of Lesser energy are possible sources of energy management, although seldom used to help a primary class.

Warrior - This class is often tapped for only 1-2 skills, usually in the tactics line. Most common are Shield's Up, Watch Yourself, Charge [E], and Sprint. Ranger/Warriors with expertise are an example of the "flipped" primary/secondary dynamic. Elementalists can use a warrior secondary to carry conjures, but this is very seldom used.

Ranger - Very similar to warrior, most common skills brought from it are speed buffs and spirits.

Ritualist - I have no experience in determining what skills should or shouldn't be brought from this, nor enought to remember enough skills off the top of my head to be useful. Theres a couple interesting items to hold (one that heals you if damage hurts you below 25% health), as well as some weapon spells that are possibly useful.

Assassin - The biggest thing I see people taking from the Assassin as a secondary class is Shadow Refuge. That skill is crazy good at low attribute levels; level 4 or 5 shadow arts is often enough for this skill to pay for itself. Coordinated use of Recall is possible for a movement game in GvG, as well as for front-line characters running away from damage. Also, Iron Palm is a knockdown, and the power of knockdowns require that a serious look be taken at any new knockdown skill.

Another note - another benefit to running an assassin primary, other than Critical Strikes, is that it is not locked into being a Ranger as well. Assassin/Warrior can use "Fear Me" and "Watch Yourself" with much less cost than a Warrior primary. Assassin/Mesmer is rather interesting as well - I personally see a domination spec with Blackout (use after unloading an attack skill chain), Hex Breaker, and Power Leak being the most promising skills. Unfortuneately, this often means not having enough attribute points to spec effectively into Deadly or Shadow Arts, which means that often the Assassin won't have access to Crippling Dagger or Caltrops for a snare, which means his teammates must supply it.

Nevin · Apr 09, 2006, 05:38 AM // 05:38

All games have their ups and downs, for the most part Guild Wars is very balanced. And any changes made will just lead to more balancing, its an endless cycle, theres nothing we can do about it. Of course some class combos are better then others, but thats the minority.

Ulivious The Reaper · Apr 09, 2006, 06:21 AM // 06:21

nice idea there, and yes mesmer secondary is very useful too because a warrior/mesmer can tank anything and i've tried, Physical resistence, Doylak signet, and then watch yourself is only1-2 damge from most fellow warriors, iv'e tried in random arenas

LifeInfusion · Apr 09, 2006, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iraqalypse Now

I think a far more useful approach to looking at secondary classes is by distinguishing between different reasons to use secondary classes; "flipping" primary and secondary classes to take advantage of a different set of armor/runes/primary attribute, using the secondary class for 1-2 skills that provide utility, self-healing, survivability, or energy management, or by using a distinct combination of skills between classes.

I concur. That is the reason I had written this. Only a handful of skills are usable from every profession. This handful is larger for some classes. (Mesmer and monk).

I agree with your way of analyzing it, but it leaves gaps. That is why I went a bit more specific, to point out some GLARING FLAWS in balance. A E/W or Me/W is about as effective as a Elementalist with no energy storage and 3 lines of magic. It works in theory, not in practice. Same thing for Me/R , Me/E (fast cast nuker, anyone?) and N/E...

The reality is the bulk of the primary professions use enchantments and stances, and if you rely on enchantments way too much, you are bound to be ineffective if it has more than 15 seconds recharge. Illusionary Weaponry Me/W and Obsidian Flesh E/W PBAOE are perfect examples. When a warrior with wild blow combined with a necromancer or mesmer with enchantment removal comes, you are basically left to rot and die because there will be much pressure on your team with you as sort of deadweight.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevin

All games have their ups and downs, for the most part Guild Wars is very balanced. And any changes made will just lead to more balancing, its an endless cycle, theres nothing we can do about it. Of course some class combos are better then others, but thats the minority.

If YOU think it is a minority... look again. Most attribute lines cannot be used well on secondary. Try running

Any Warrior line besides Tactics
Any Ranger line besides Wilderness Survival (no, Beast Mastery sucks in PvE, it causes so much aggro it isn't funny)
Any Elementalist line period (try being energy efficient on anything but a necro with high soul reaping or mesmer with inspiraiton magic pumped up)
Any Mesmer line besides inspiration (yeh do-able, but not effective...which is why mesmer is an exception)
Any Necromancer line besides curses (try making a MM or blood secondary)

Monks are probably the only wholehearted exception. ANY class can use it as secondary for the resurrection spells. If not, Balthazar's Spirit/Heal Area/Heal Party/Healing Breeze/etc...

Kool Pajamas · Apr 09, 2006, 09:27 PM // 21:27

I rarely use my secondary on any of my characters anyway. Only time I use it is for specific team builds.

Skarjak · Apr 09, 2006, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

I concur. That is the reason I had written this. Only a handful of skills are usable from every profession. This handful is larger for some classes. (Mesmer and monk).

I agree with your way of analyzing it, but it leaves gaps. That is why I went a bit more specific, to point out some GLARING FLAWS in balance. A E/W or Me/W is about as effective as a Elementalist with no energy storage and 3 lines of magic. It works in theory, not in practice. Same thing for Me/R , Me/E (fast cast nuker, anyone?) and N/E...

The reality is the bulk of the primary professions use enchantments and stances, and if you rely on enchantments way too much, you are bound to be ineffective if it has more than 15 seconds recharge. Illusionary Weaponry Me/W and Obsidian Flesh E/W PBAOE are perfect examples. When a warrior with wild blow combined with a necromancer or mesmer with enchantment removal comes, you are basically left to rot and die because there will be much pressure on your team with you as sort of deadweight.

EDIT:

If YOU think it is a minority... look again. Most attribute lines cannot be used well on secondary. Try running

Any Warrior line besides Tactics
Any Ranger line besides Wilderness Survival (no, Beast Mastery sucks in PvE, it causes so much aggro it isn't funny)
Any Elementalist line period (try being energy efficient on anything but a necro with high soul reaping or mesmer with inspiraiton magic pumped up)
Any Mesmer line besides inspiration (yeh do-able, but not effective...which is why mesmer is an exception)
Any Necromancer line besides curses (try making a MM or blood secondary)

Monks are probably the only wholehearted exception. ANY class can use it as secondary for the resurrection spells. If not, Balthazar's Spirit/Heal Area/Heal Party/Healing Breeze/etc...

I disagree. I think you forgot that even having only one useful attribute is not a bad thing when you are going to use only 2-3 skills from your secondary anyway.

You also look at it only on the surface. There are ways to make good use of other attribute lines. Ritualists can bring a few necromancer spells to have even more buddies, since their primary attribute boosts undead minion hp. Support necromancers can bring in a few elementalist wards to help out the party. Beast mastery can be used for tiger's fury, or it can be used to add extra dps in arenas (most people don't even attack the pet, which is in no way a bad thing because it can easily deal a lot of damage if left unharmed).

In fact, I would say a monk secondary is probably the most inneficient setup. Most characters try to have a synergy in their skills. They have a purpose and they specialise in doing their job well. A monk secondary can almost never synergize with your main character, it is mostly healing skills. If you are a tank, is it your job to heal? You could argue that being able to heal yourself makes you tank longer. Then again, trading these healing spells for stances wouldn't be a bad thing. And how are healing skills useful on any other character?

I made an E/mo and quickly found out it was a very bad decision. When I use a healing spell, it's because someone really didn't do his job and we are bound to lose anyway. The rest of the time, the skills just sit there wasting space. If you are a tank, you may be justified to bring one or two healing skills instead of attack skills, and if you are a minion master, you are justified to bring heal area, but any other character (save for a primary monk of course) has no use for healing skills if everyone is doing their job right.

LifeInfusion · Apr 10, 2006, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Ritualists using Minions = ineffective. The minions have more health, but less attack and ARMOR.

A necro/ele using wards works in theory, but the wards don't last as long.

Tiger's fury is not as good as flurry or Battle Rage for adrenaline gain and using secondary for ONE skill is not a good idea when your primary already has a skill that does the same thing more or less.

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Skarjak, you don't use monk secondary for healing per se.
You use it for
-degen countering
-condition/hex removal
-ressing
-Protection/prolonging survival of minions or players

Example would be a N/Mo using heal area for minions (as you said). I tend to use remove hex and rebirth on my E/Mo. Sometimes using Life Attunement on yourself can be a great help when monks heal you since your main damage comes not from attacks but spells. With heal area in between downtime for high recharge skills like Maelstrom, Rodgort's Invocation, Meteor Shower, Meteor, Eruption, Wards, etc. you can heal an ally or two to relieve pressure on monks (Necros/Eles ONLY).

You can use smiting to buff the capabilities of warriors, rangers, and soon...assassins. Imagine an assassin with Judge's Insight. That is 20% armor penetration on EVERY attack. Daggers attack roughly every second at 12 dagger mastery. That is a ton of extra damage, especially since holy doesn't encounter the +armor versus physical or elemental (it still takres into account armor though). Before the AOE patch, the use of Symbol of Wrath on warrior/monks was not unheard of.

In general monk secondary is good for sustaining and buffing and ressing. It will change well ritualists come. That is because all the /mo that only use the ressurection will want to use flesh of my flesh, restoration, or Lively was Naomei for a faster res.