Curse

DJ Josh · Apr 18, 2006, 03:10 AM // 03:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stockholm

Well Hunter Sharparrowjust why not take away the traders and let players get along with what the find in the game. LET US PLAY ANY WAY WE WANT, WE PAYED FOR THE GAME the same as you did.

oh how i yearn for the old days with hardly any traders.back when you could make money from runes,even majors.and also the old chests back when you could make cash from almost any decent purple or gold.people seem to have always overlooked just how much things like greens,key chests and traders have affected our money making chances.my first few weeks,back in may,i had 2 chars with 15k and very nice max gold items + set up my own guild and bought my own guildhall when sigils were 100k each.and that was just from playing the game through normaly 2.5 times without farming.nowadays its that hard for people to make money they have no choice but to farm to get what they want.also whats left to do when you have done everything to its death,farm thats what set your self little challenges and go at it.i also like to go back to the old town and help the newbies out,i mean legit help not running or free-riding,with missions and quests and build advice etc.but most of my time goes into farming for my 2 accounts and to help guildies get what they want(i see this as payment for loyalty).and not everyone who farms is rich,i'm certainly not otherwise i would have a decent crystalline to finish my sword collection,but i am cofortable for now(until factions when i find a plethora of stuff to buy).

9 days and counting

.

DJ Josh · Apr 18, 2006, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Dei

Or A.Net could make drops scalable so you get decent rewards for group play or solo play....The real reason people farm, at least for 85% of the farmers, is that drops split 8 ways SUCK.

quoted for truth.

this has been asked for time and again but still no change,drops need to be more even aswell to lower the lucky man hate.i have been on a oro farm once where 1 person got every green that dropped(total of 7/8 i think).in this case the guy was nice enougth to dish out his lower priced stuff to make it more even but he should never of had to,+ how many people in the gw community are realy this generous.

Phoenix Avenger · Apr 18, 2006, 08:34 PM // 20:34

I like the idea of making soloing more challenging. Part of it might be to randomize the spawns a little bit more. Like say one day the stone summit get a raiding party or something to push into the dwarven territory and are currently holding ground in the caves outside of droks (replacing the trolls). Things sorta like the scarabs in the desert, however dont necessarily have a new green there, and dont make it permenant. Mix it up, maybe the stone summit survive there for a few days then the avica take it over, then maybe back to trolls. The same thing could be done all over the continent. It would make farming more interesting and maybe more challenging since the conditions will change often (thus making you be able to think on your feet and tweak your build when needed).

MSecorsky · Apr 18, 2006, 08:49 PM // 20:49

The needs of farmers should be flat out ignored. Wealth and items are irrelevant to success in the game.

Don Zardeone · Apr 18, 2006, 11:22 PM // 23:22

But it looks cool though.

Hunter Sharparrow · Apr 19, 2006, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Quote:

Well Hunter Sharparrow why not just take away the traders and let players get along with what the find in the game. LET US PLAY ANY WAY WE WANT, WE PAYED FOR THE GAME the same as you did.

In a fixed economy I say farm till your blue in the face but because it's a player driven economy this isn't the case. Words from anet in an interview specifically say that excessive farming causes prices to rise *forcing* others to farm just to keep up. Their words not mine and with one of the updates affecting drops in areas that are repetedly farmed then that too has a negetive affect on my game that I payed money for just like you. So why in hell would I keep my mouth shut and let you play any way you want when the way you play affects my game in a negetive way. ANET SAID IT THEMSELVES. They know the mechanics of the game better then any of you thick minded indivituals who don't want to listen.

Str0b0 · Apr 19, 2006, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter Sharparrow

In a fixed economy I say farm till your blue in the face but because it's a player driven economy this isn't the case. Words from anet in an interview specifically say that excessive farming causes prices to rise *forcing* others to farm just to keep up. Their words not mine and with one of the updates affecting drops in areas that are repetedly farmed then that too has a negetive affect on my game that I payed money for just like you. So why in hell would I keep my mouth shut and let you play any way you want when the way you play affects my game in a negetive way. ANET SAID IT THEMSELVES. They know the mechanics of the game better then any of you thick minded indivituals who don't want to listen.

Ok they may know mechanics but not economics. Basic economics 101. As supply outstrips demand prices fall. That's why prices are dropping here. Greens are falling rapidly. Why? Because supply outstripped demand. Crafting components...supply got higher than demand so people were forced to lower prices to stay competitive. Any 8th grade student that manages to stay awake in governement and economics class can tell you that. Surpluses NEVER lead to rising prices. If ANet had 100,000 extra copies of prophecies sitting in a warehouse not selling because most of the market base already had a copy you can bet your bottom dollar that they would lower the price to move the product. Items that just sit storage and inventory don't make farmers any gold. We need to move product. Since it costs us virtually nothing to provide the product we lower prices, just like big business. Mark-ups of 300% aren't uncommon. Do you honestly think it costs ANet 50 bucks to make a CD and package it? Much less market and code it? They have at least a 30% profit margin. They can whittle prices down within that margin without taking a loss. The economy here works the same way. If I go out and spam ectos at 10K each how many do you think I will sell? None because there are fifty other people out ther that will sell for 6 and 6.5K

Coolniceronguy · Apr 19, 2006, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

Ok they may know mechanics but not economics. Basic economics 101. As supply outstrips demand prices fall. That's why prices are dropping here. Greens are falling rapidly. Why? Because supply outstripped demand. Crafting components...supply got higher than demand so people were forced to lower prices to stay competitive. Any 8th grade student that manages to stay awake in governement and economics class can tell you that. Surpluses NEVER lead to rising prices. If ANet had 100,000 extra copies of prophecies sitting in a warehouse not selling because most of the market base already had a copy you can bet your bottom dollar that they would lower the price to move the product. Items that just sit storage and inventory don't make farmers any gold. We need to move product. Since it costs us virtually nothing to provide the product we lower prices, just like big business. Mark-ups of 300% aren't uncommon. Do you honestly think it costs ANet 50 bucks to make a CD and package it? Much less market and code it? They have at least a 30% profit margin. They can whittle prices down within that margin without taking a loss. The economy here works the same way. If I go out and spam ectos at 10K each how many do you think I will sell? None because there are fifty other people out ther that will sell for 6 and 6.5K

I agree. The more farmers there are = the more sellers there are. Which turns into a buyer's market. Prices come down.

Undivine · Apr 19, 2006, 01:19 AM // 01:19

I'm hearing a lot of you talk about playing the game the way you want to play the game. I'm not quite buying it. If you are really farming because you want to farm, then why are you farming the easiest spots with the best loot? What you want is to become rich. (Granted, some of you seem more interested in the sport of farming, and there's nothing wrong with that.)

So I don't buy your dribble about your right to play the game the way you want to play it. The fact is, ANet can influence what people do and what they farm by changing the rewards offered. Doesn't that seem shallow? If they actually changed the way the loot was distributed so that farming isn't worth it anymore, do you really think farming would be this popular still? And does making such a change infringe on your rights?

Now, if you want to solo, there are far better single player games out there. Far better. They can offer you a deeper, richer, more gripping experience by yourself, then grinding those trolls. Some of you may say that if they nerfed farming, so many people would leave the game. I say, perhaps they should. Clearly they are bored with it. Playing a game isn't supposed to be "work" after all.

Farming is bad because of the bots and sweat shop players. Group farm runs are bad because they happen to be the only groups I can get in Sorrow's Furnace, even if I actually want to do the quests. These are the main reasons why farming needs to be nerfed. Other then those, there isn't really anything wrong with farming. But it is pretty damn lame.

Hunter Sharparrow · Apr 19, 2006, 01:31 AM // 01:31

And yet again I must explain it once again that it is just not that simple. When people do nothing but farm they bring in money along with the items. This money increases the wealth for those that do it while those that just play the game don't get this large wealth. Now lets say the item is a superior absorbtion. When someone finishes farming and found said item they will see what it is selling and buying for at the trader then make up a price somewhere in between. They then will sell the item to other players, most of which are farmers themselves to be able to afford the price asked. Lets say the buy/selling price of the rune is 40k/60k at the trader. As in the trader will give you 40k for the one you have while in turn is selling them to the public for 60k. The price most people will pick is 55k that way they get the most they can while still providing a savings to whoever would like to buy it. So those that don't make a small fortune farming (for whatever reason) and can afford it will buy it for that price to save the money or save themselve time trying to get more money to get it from the trader. Those that do make a small fortune will just buy it from the trader to save themselve the time and hastle of trying to find someone selling one and will buy it from the trader. At the same time, after buying from the trader, if they found one they would try to get the most money they can for it by selling it to another person and not to the trader. This (from the traders point of view) make the demand outweigh the supply despite the actuall amount of said rune cerculating amongst the public. This will cause the prices at the trader to rise for that item and in turn people will charge more for the ones they have. This makes it harder to sell and are more likely just sell it to the trader to save themselves time in looking for a buyer when they can be out farming. Why not? Since the price at the trader has increased, the trader is offering more for it. This tips the scale the other way causing the price of the rune fall back down. So it doesn't matter how much supply is brought in buy farming. The price depends on the supply and demand from the trader's point of view not the supply and demand between the players. Although it may have worked for green items that is the only item it has worked for. Since the green items only come from certain bosses then bringing them into play isn't difficult. The problem with green stuff is that when it comes to the weapons, you can't change the mods on it. It's the gold brought in that causes prices to be so high. When it comes to items at the trader this is much the case but when it comes to rare stuff (that you can't predict getting by killing a specific boss) it is way out of hand when it comes to the prices. The reason prices are so high is because those that farm bring in such a high level of wealth for themselves, they can afford to buy it at the high price. This leaves the average player to have to farm just to keep up. If people had to quest in groups, for example, the people would have no choice but to sell the 100k item for 10k instead as noone would ever be able to afford the 100k price tag. Anet sort have done this buy reducing the drop rate on those that repeatadly farm but this didn't solve anything since it dropped the rate for everyone else leaving us all in the same situation as before.

Edit: Well put Undivine.

quickmonty · Apr 19, 2006, 01:40 AM // 01:40

It is simple supply and demand with Anet making adjustments if they feel adjustments are needed. You continue to try to make it more complex with convoluted arguments. If you make everthing that complex I would love to see you tie your shoes.

Str0b0 · Apr 19, 2006, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undivine

I'm hearing a lot of you talk about playing the game the way you want to play the game. I'm not quite buying it. If you are really farming because you want to farm, then why are you farming the easiest spots with the best loot? What you want is to become rich. (Granted, some of you seem more interested in the sport of farming, and there's nothing wrong with that.)

So I don't buy your dribble about your right to play the game the way you want to play it. The fact is, ANet can influence what people do and what they farm by changing the rewards offered. Doesn't that seem shallow? If they actually changed the way the loot was distributed so that farming isn't worth it anymore, do you really think farming would be this popular still? And does making such a change infringe on your rights?

Now, if you want to solo, there are far better single player games out there. Far better. They can offer you a deeper, richer, more gripping experience by yourself, then grinding those trolls. Some of you may say that if they nerfed farming, so many people would leave the game. I say, perhaps they should. Clearly they are bored with it. Playing a game isn't supposed to be "work" after all.

Farming is bad because of the bots and sweat shop players. Group farm runs are bad because they happen to be the only groups I can get in Sorrow's Furnace, even if I actually want to do the quests. These are the main reasons why farming needs to be nerfed. Other then those, there isn't really anything wrong with farming. But it is pretty damn lame.

What if I want to get rich in game? So what? That's the way I want to play the game. Being poor in this game is no fun. Being rich is fun. It gives you the option to experiment away without having to worry about your bank. The way you put want in snarky little italics suggests that you have some sort of problem with people prospering. In fact it sounds like one of the common attacks that the poor shoot at us. It's easy to blame farmers and the super rich and bots and sweatshops for your problem earning cash. The truth is you're lazy. We could all quit doing what we are doing right now and you still would be too lazy to earn gold. Stop blaming everyone else and take some responsibility for being poor.

Undivine · Apr 19, 2006, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Actually, supply and demand is indeed true, but problems also arise when too much money gets into the economy. This is the reason for the money sinks. The value of a platinum must be maintained or else nobody will take it seriously. Technically prices aren't rising or falling... the money is just becoming less valuable. Prices can rise through inflation, even as they drop through large supply of a product.

And I have neither the time to play this game that often, nor the tolorance to play it in the most boring way possible. If we were talking about real life money, then fine, I would be lazy. But this is a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing game.

Str0b0 · Apr 19, 2006, 02:05 AM // 02:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undivine

Actually, supply and demand is indeed true, but problems also arise when too much money gets into the economy. This is the reason for the money sinks. The value of a platinum must be maintained or else nobody will take it seriously. Technically prices aren't rising or falling... the money is just becoming less valuable. Prices can rise through inflation, even as they drop through large supply of a product.

And I have neither the time to play this game that often, nor the tolorance to play it in the most boring way possible. If we were talking about real life money, then fine, I would be lazy. But this is a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing game.

Ahh foul language. The last resort of the man who has run out of valid points. Dude I work for a living. I maybe farm about 4 hours a week and yet somehow I still seem to keep my storage above 200K. So yes you are lazy and you're trying to pass the buck. If it's just a game then get over the economics of it. You can't take one aspect so seriously and then try to play it off as nothing but a game when it suits your current position.

Undivine · Apr 19, 2006, 06:06 AM // 06:06

I swore because I was angry. You are the one turning to mockery. Farming is easy enough for anyone semi-competant, or even someone who simply reads how to do it. I actively do not do it. If you guys are so hung up on people's "right to chose" how we play the game then why do I have to farm? The 15K armor clearly was not intended to be easy to get; it was supposed to be a place to sink money out of the economy. It was hard for me to get, and that's fine. Now, as for weapons... well I don't even bother buying from players since there's no way I could get anything at a price I could afford.

Tell me, what would be wrong with nerfing farming? Let's say they found a way to completely do away with farming altogether. Perhaps they changed how loot drops so it no longer benefits solo players. What would be wrong with that?

LightningHell · Apr 19, 2006, 06:40 AM // 06:40

The point of this thread is not to nerf farming, it is to make it harder, but with better rewards, so to discourage botters.

Stockholm · Apr 19, 2006, 07:42 AM // 07:42

Guy's Anet is ownd by a KOREAN company and have just opend up new servers all over asia, and they are very interessted in making money, every new server(country) in asia has the potential to attract more ppl than US and EU togheter so I don't think the will nerf farming when 1 person in "china" will buy 20-200 games for a sweet shop and set up bot's. NC-Soft makes money per sold game not on players who play for years. ECONOMICS 3 billion asians as potential customers or 500 million happy westerners LOL do the math.

Undivine · Apr 19, 2006, 10:22 AM // 10:22

My apologies for hijacking this thread. Farming is a sensitive topic, as you can see. These threads rarely remain civil.

Let me just summerize that I don't mind making soloing more challenging. What I object to is making it more rewarding. Quick and easy cash is a problem for Guild Wars. Now if a challenge is all you wanted in the first place, then farm a more challenging spot.

I don't know how NC-Soft really views the sweat shops, but ArenaNet certainly takes a negative view of bots. From a purely bottom-line approach they shouldn't really care. I don't think they are that shallow though.

quickmonty · Apr 19, 2006, 10:36 AM // 10:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undivine

My apologies for hijacking this thread. Farming is a sensitive topic, as you can see. These threads rarely remain civil.

Let me just summerize that I don't mind making soloing more challenging. What I object to is making it more rewarding. Quick and easy cash is a problem for Guild Wars. Now if a challenge is all you wanted in the first place, then farm a more challenging spot.

I don't know how NC-Soft really views the sweat shops, but ArenaNet certainly takes a negative view of bots. From a purely bottom-line approach they shouldn't really care. I don't think they are that shallow though.

You are correct. These threads, no matter how they begin, seem to degenerate into a "nerf/anti nerf" argument. In general, I don't think most people are asking for more rewards, or even mind if farming becomes more challenging.

As someone who is sitting on plenty of gold I would like to see the opportunity remain for those that are new to the game. Shouldn't they also have an equal chance to gather gold to purchase items?

One final note. As to the argument of farming adding gold to the economy versus trading the recirculates gold. There are plenty of gold sinks in the game. When you purchase 15K or FoW armor, where does that gold go? It leaves the game.

Peace

Nevin · Apr 19, 2006, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Hmmm... What about high level quests with high rewards of gold... Not 5,000 experience.. Yay another skill point!!! Who needs that!? But 5,000 gold; Now thats a quest I'd do.