Curse

chronosspawn · Apr 19, 2006, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Banin,
That last post of yours sounded more like you were paying attention to previous points, so thanks

Quote:

I'm afraid your first arguments make little sense to me. Could you clarify what you mean?

Well, I'll clarify on the first of the "first arguments". You had previously said "Do you need to encourage someone to do something they wanted to do anyway?" My point was that a player doesn't necessarily want to do HA anyways, which is what I thought you were saying.

To elaborate, even if a player likes HA, they may be in no mood for it at the time. Being a game, the focus should be on fun, period. But don't confuse that statement with "the game should be easy (or unbalanced)". Giving everything away easily to the player creates unbalance in the long run and detracts from the fun. But I just don't see how the disadvantages of having UW/FOW available whenever the player feels like outweighs the "fun" advantages of being able to play when you feel like. If farming were the issue, there are plenty of methods in the post mentioned to get around that.

What if in the game, they only let you log in with your PVE characters when your region had favor? Now granted, that idea is FAR worse than the current favor system. But the idea rubs me wrong in the same way favor does. Allbeit to a much lesser extent.

Quote:

If I'm not mistaken, Fantus' estimate was around 2-3%, but stuck with a conservative 20% to prove the point. I'm assuming Fantus' preferred estimate, for the sake of being conservative. And you're right, the numbers don't really matter for my argument.

The way you originally worded it, with "it must mean that only 2% of the players can try". That sounded a lot slimmer odds than Fantus said. Probably the "can try" part. The way you worded it this time sounds more true to Fantus' original "fact".

Quote:

Dougal's legitimate complaint doesn't lie with the Favor system. It results from the poor, rude state of many PvP players right now. While it is a problem that needs to be corrected, it is hardly relevant to the discussion.

Fact of the matter, unfortunately, is that the only way you change peoples attitudes (the rudeness you mentioned), is by changing the game mechanics. I believe you were referring to Dougal statement about needing 6+ for many HOH Pick Up Groups. My guild puts very little stock in /rank. I've seen unranked players better than rank 9 players. Rank has more to do with hours played than skill. Though concerning PUG's, your odds of a player improve with higher rank. Still, I'd rather try someone out who could speak intelligently in the chat than bring a ranked player. But I can't stress how rarely I do PUG's. I wish I knew a solution to make players more open to taking low/no ranked people or willing to take a non-gimmick build. Removing /rank would help with the first part of that wish. But I don't recommend it. I use my /rank extremely rarely (and never to get into a PUG), but too many people enjoy this emote to make it the solution. I really have no answer to improving players attitude. If anyone does, please pipe in.

Quote:

1. I would, but it would be illegal.

Ha

Sorry I was so frustrated in my previous post. Like I said, I just saw enough to make me feel you just weren't really taking in what the "other side" had to say. I'd say carry on the banter, but I feel I've gotten my use out of this thread. That being said, we'll see if I can resist posting further on this topic

nimloth32 · Apr 20, 2006, 05:17 AM // 05:17

well, i think that anet do a bad job at linking pve and pvp in original guild wars..through the favour thingy..but i can see that situaiton has been improved for GW:F..

however, i read from a post in this thread that if the favours thingy is undone, then i believe that this will disconnect the pvp world from pve world completely..what i hope is that anet will do something to its pve world..as a way to introduce the players to the world of pvp thru quests and missions..instead of keeping increasing the AI of creeps only..heck, by the end of the day, i would hate to see ppl quit GW because the creep is so ****ing hard and they had no idea how to defeat it at all..anyway, it is kinda of off-topic..and i am sorry for that

Fantus · Apr 20, 2006, 07:05 AM // 07:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by talon

Um... If you DO do PvP, and you DO influence favor, then the next region has to win 5 times to take it off you. That is 50 minutes. I'm quite sure you can switch between characters, so I don't see what you are complaining about.
Don't have favor = use PvP character
Get favor while PvPing = use PvE character

This is not the first time I have heard that argument and while I concede that it's technically possible to get your own favor to enter UW/FoW, I will dare to state that in 99% of all cases that's not what players do or even desire to do.

I don't know about you guys but when I am doing PvP I do so for a longer period of time. It is a well known fact that setting up a PvP team for HA takes quite some time (unless you do "grab 8 and go" teams which are unlikely to win HoH anyway). Maybe we're slower than a Luxon turtle, but we usually spend more than an hour for getting up the team alone. Getting to HoH will take some time too, of course, even if you make it on your first run and get a lucky bypass around Scarred Earth or even something better. When you have finally won HoH, in most cases you stay and try to hold it, don't you? Baseline, when I do PvP I usually do so the whole evening and don't switch back to PvE. I guess that's rather the case with most teams unless they play for 10 hours straight (please keep in mind that clearing out UW or FoW takes 4-6 hours alone). That's why I claimed I am either a PvP OR a PvE player at any given time, but not both. In both cases the favor system has nothing to offer me at best and keeps me from what I wanted to do at worst.

Ctb · Apr 20, 2006, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by quickmonty

Now that is trolling

I feel like I should take a bow or something...

Dougal Kronik · Apr 20, 2006, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by nimloth32

well, i think that anet do a bad job at linking pve and pvp in original guild wars..through the favour thingy..but i can see that situaiton has been improved for GW:F..

however, i read from a post in this thread that if the favours thingy is undone, then i believe that this will disconnect the pvp world from pve world completely..what i hope is that anet will do something to its pve world..as a way to introduce the players to the world of pvp thru quests and missions..instead of keeping increasing the AI of creeps only..heck, by the end of the day, i would hate to see ppl quit GW because the creep is so ****ing hard and they had no idea how to defeat it at all..anyway, it is kinda of off-topic..and i am sorry for that

They are introducing PvE players to the world of PvP in Factions without the encumberance of Favor. The 3 Luxon vs Kurzick Missions where the line is drawn.

Trin Storm · Apr 20, 2006, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Anet has already stated they are looking into alternate access methods. I pitched this on another forum and got fairly positive response from pvp and pve players a like so I’ll throw it out here as well.

The current system “and just go win it” attitude is unrealistic because you are asking players who enjoy PvE to compete at the highest levels in PvP in order to then go play the high end content. Frankly a PvE will spend 5 min in the HA lobby and realize they have nothing in common with many PvP players, an elitist attitude toward them, and have most of their stereotypes about PvP reinforced leading to little hope of any real success. With out hope – the player is not coming back or going to continue to try for very long.

The Idea: Charge 1,000 Balthazar faction points per player when out of favor to enter UW/FoW

The reasoning:
1) Anet wants cross over play - this would encourage it at lower PvP talent levels where PvE players could find some degree of success. It provides them pvp exposure in a setting with less preasure where they are more likely to be encouraged to try other game types. It wouldn’t require hard core pvp play from a pve player (which isn’t going to happen) and makes PvP rewards have some usefulness for a PvE player.

2) My idea addresses the issue in that it puts access in the hands of a player. I think that is the key. Right now most pve players have zero input into who has favor and even if they wanted too would have to practice and play for months to even get close to good enough. Realistically this just isn’t going to happen. Bal Faction puts the power in the players hands. There are several places to gain the faction in PvP at various levels of skills that don’t require players to jump in and beat the best in the world to get something.

3) What this is NOT is a call for unlimited access to these areas. It would still need to be earned. Just in a way the average player could influence and participate in. Favor would still matter as and be something to be earned and be proud of. Current Favor access of 1000 gold per team would stay in place.

4) This would at best allow someone 10 out of favor trips before need them to play pvp or wait for favor to gain access. This means that it won't create a farming stampede any more so than already exisits and may lead players to try out more facets of the game.

Dougal Kronik · Apr 20, 2006, 05:49 PM // 17:49

From Trin Storm

Quote:

The Idea: Charge 1,000 Balthazar faction points per player when out of favor to enter UW/FoW

Excellent idea. Getting back to the rewards going to those who earn or pay for them. Empowering the PvE players with a bit of control over their fortunes.

sh4ft3d · Apr 20, 2006, 07:42 PM // 19:42

I do like Trin Storm's idea. I do a bit of PvP as well, but not nearly on a high enough scale to influence favor lol. Even though, I would be regularly able to enter FoW/UW.

Fantus · Apr 20, 2006, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dougal Kronik

From Trin Storm

Excellent idea. Getting back to the rewards going to those who earn or pay for them. Empowering the PvE players with a bit of control over their fortunes.

As a matter of fact that's by far the best idea regarding the favor system I have ever seen. It still connects PvP and PvE but it gives control of success back to the player where it belongs.

nomed · Apr 20, 2006, 08:37 PM // 20:37

It's ok to not like PvP, but you shouldn't be whining about not getting UW and FoW access if you don't do Heroes Ascent as these are all tied together.
If you don't like it just enjoy the other areas of the game, but stop buggering other people who do like it.
Believe it or not, there's still people out there who like to work in order to achieve something.

Quote:

The Idea: Charge 1,000 Balthazar faction points per player when out of favor to enter UW/FoW

That's pretty cool.

Zhou Feng · Apr 20, 2006, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantus

It was argued over and over that the favor system is totally broken the way it is now. The favor system is probably the single most controversial feature in the game and it caused heated discussion since the day GW was released. The very fact that it totally split the game's population should be reason enough to change it even without the logical flaws it has. Anet is obsessed with it, though, and so I see little chance that it might get changed. So far they didn't care that the better part of all GW players hates it. Which is interesting because in all other instances they DID care about the players and they would change aspects in the game if enough players wanted that change.

Nevertheless I am going to make another stand against the favor system and I will collect the major arguments here in this post. Most of them I made in various posts here on this forum but maybe a single post is more readable for most persons. Here we go:

Why the favor system is both broken and bad

Part A: Why the favor system is broken

This part contains FACTS.

In most computer games, players play the game for in game rewards. They do certain things (like solving quests, killing enemies and so on) and get something for that (virtual gold, items, experience points and so on). I'd call it the basic principle of dealing out rewards in games. People work and they get rewarded for that work. The favor system violates this principle because it deals out rewards to people who didn't work for it and at the same time it doesn't reward the people who DID work. When a team wins favor in HoH, the "reward" is opening a completely different part of the game for players who did NOT win HoH at this time. Every player in ToA gets rewarded without working for it. At the same time, winning favor does have no meaning for the team(s) winning it because favor does not influence HA or any other part of the PvP part of the game. People might get (and are) rewarded without even trying to win HoH, ever. Therefore, the favor system is broken.
People arguing in favor of the current favor system would further tell you that since it's possible to go and win HoH yourself, the favor system is not broken. According to them, people have the chance to work for their own rewards. This is untrue. Guild Wars is online since one year now. There is one team winning HoH roughly every 10 minutes (that's 6 teams per hour). 360 days * 24 hours * 6 teams * 8 players = ~ 410,000 players. That is the total number of players who, in theory, could have won HoH so far. The true number is a fraction of that number because it would assume that every HoH winner did win only once. This is not the case, so the true number of HoH winners is much smaller than this. I'd estimate that it's somewhere between 10,000 and 40,000 players who have won HoH so far, but I am not going to use that guess here since we're talking facts and not guesses. Guild Wars has roughly 2 million players at this time so the total percentage of people being able to influence favor can not be higher than 20% of the GW population (if you'd use my estimation for the actual number of the HoH winners, the number would be around 2-3%). Therefore, the argument claiming that people can work for favor is invalidated. Only a fraction of all GW players can do this, due to physical contraints of the system.
The favor system is designed to link the PvE and the PvP parts of the game. It fails to do that because the link is only in ONE direction. The PvP part of the game (HoH) does influence the PvE part of the game (UW/FoW) but in the entire game there is no similar link back from PvE into PvP. It is a FACT that there is no requirement whatsoever to play PvE if you're interested only in the PvP part. All items, skills required for PvP can be gained solely by playing PvP. The is no valid argument why PvP should influence PvE when there is no similar link back from PvE into PvP. Therefore, the favor system is broken.

Part B: Why the favor system is bad

This part contains OPINIONS (you might or might not share)

The favor system locks the majority of all players out from interesting PvE areas (some would say, the only really interesting PvE areas) at any given time. People don't consider the ability to enter an area a reward, they consider the inablility to enter a punishment. Therefore, the favor system is bad.
It is impossible to play in UW/FoW with international guild teams. Since the favor systems allows only one territory at a time to enter UW/FoW, players from different territories can never play there together. Many guilds in GW are international guilds having players from different territories. The favor system disallows friends from different territories to play in UW/FoW. Therefore, the favor system is bad.
Since chances are that any given territory is more likely to gain favor during their primetime gaming hours, any player not able to play during these hours might never really have the chance to enter UW/FoW despite their territory might be sucessful in the system. A common example would be Australians playing on US servers since they didn't have their own servers. A system locking out players from areas pratically based on their gaming hours is.. bad.
Since there is no way to know in advance when a certain territory will have favor, there is no way to play UW/FoW groups in advance. Smaller guilds often rely on this sort of planning since it's the only way to get a full team together. Therefore, the favor system is bad.
The favor system is unbalanced. It puts territories of vastly different sizes against each other. Smaller territories have it much harder to succeed in it than large territories. Therefore, the favor system is bad.
The favor system simulates a virtual war between real existing countries. This is undesireable because this stimulates open racism and flaming between peoples. Therefore, the favor system is bad.
The favor system split the PvE and the PvP communities of the game. Pretty much all PvE only players seem to hate it while the PvP only players seem to be the only ones defending it. The favor system is the single most important source of flamewars between both playerbases. Therefore, the favor system is bad.
GW was designed to attract a certain type of gamer. The type who likes both PvE and PvP. In the favor system you can see that basic idea, of course. In reality GW attacts not only this type of players but it attacts pure PvE and pure PvP players as well. As a matter of fact, the "pure" type of players seem to be the majority of GW's playerbase. While this might be something that Anet didn't really see coming (I guess particulary the huge number of PvE only players did surprise them a bit), there is no good reason why this fact shouldn't be acknowledged and made part of the game now. With GW Factions, Anet moves in the right direction. Both PvE and PvP are important for alliance success. None is being favored over the other. Pure PvE can contribute and pure PvP players can contribute (and people who like both can do both). Nobody is being forced to take part in something they don't like. As it should be. The favor system is different because in it's very basic idea it forces people to do both PvE and PvP. Forcing people to do something they don't like is a bad idea. It's not work, it's a game. A game should be fun. Therefore, the favor system is bad (see note below).
Last but not least - and that's really my personal impression, I don't have numbers to back it up, of course - the total majority of the playerbase in GW seems to disagree with the favor system. That's more than enough reason that.. the favor system is bad.

Note: The "don't force people to do PvP if they don't want to" argument gets often attacked by the pro favor system people who will state that "GW is intended to be a PvP game". Which is not the case. There is no proof whatsoever that this statement is even close to be true and no developer or other responsible person at Anet has ever stated something like that. On the contrary, there are enough statements from Anet that both PvE and PvP are important aspects of the game.
Personally, I'd be very curious how the PvP only crowd (which is the type of players that will often claim that GW is a PvP game) would react IF the favor system wasn't broken and IF there was a link back from PvE into PvP forcing them to do something they don't like... Oh well, there was.. when GW was released, they had to play PvE to cap elite skills. They didn't really like it, as far as I can remember. The PvP only players complained long enough that Anet removed that requirement to play PvE (since then you can unlock skills with faction points). It's funny that the same players are now defending the favor system...

Note 2: Just so that you can place this post better - I am NOT a PvE purist who is bitching about having to play PvP to enter their cherished UW/FoW. I enjoy both PvE and PvP. I've solved the PvE part with 8 characters, I have a rank emote, a six digit number of Balthazar faction and I've won HoH. The question of being against the favor system has nothing to do with PvE vs. PvP, it has something to do with logic and reason.

I am mostly a PvP player. However I don't like the current favor system because it offers nothing for PvP. Thats why I suggested PvP Favor would give faction and fame gaining boosts as well as open Elite PvP Challenges and Maps while Favor is in play (READ 12 vs 12 Maps perhaps?)

PvE could have diffrent ways to enter UW/FoW-
1) My suggestion on doing Epic Quests that rewards you with the God's MArk to enter FREE of charge to UW and/or FoW.

2) Pay a good amount of plat for those who do not want to do those quests. This would make it possibly a cash sink. Perhaps the fee should be around the 5 plat to 10 plat range?

3) The character could instead of using gold use Balthazar's Faction points instead with at least 2K to 5K faction used to enter it.

This gives the following scenario.
1) People who like to quest can play the Quest and go in for free. Let the Quest be Dynamic however so it will always be challenging.

2) People who like to farm a lot, but don't like to play Quests or PvP fear not! You can "buy"your way in. Litterally.

3) People who PvE and PvP can also go in since they can make use of their Factions to visit one of the best PvE areas.

Evryone wins! No one loses out! Now you can do a quest, farm or PvP and get in UW and/or FoW...

Banin Galori · Apr 20, 2006, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trin Storm

The Idea: Charge 1,000 Balthazar faction points per player when out of favor to enter UW/FoW

Brilliant! Trin Storm, you are a genius!

Trin Storm · Apr 21, 2006, 12:47 PM // 12:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomed

It's ok to not like PvP, but you shouldn't be whining about not getting UW and FoW access if you don't do Heroes Ascent as these are all tied together.
If you don't like it just enjoy the other areas of the game, but stop buggering other people who do like it.
Believe it or not, there's still people out there who like to work in order to achieve something.

That's pretty cool.

I feel like most PvE players don't want somethign for free - and don't mid working for access to the elite areas. The HA problem is that you ask someone with little experience to jump into and win the highest competition that PvP has to offer. Given the reasons I stated above - this makes people run away from PvP, not ecourage them. I also think it adds to the rift between PvP and PvE because the PvE player feels that the PvP crowd has power over them (access) and there is realistically little they can do to change it.

1,000 Blathazar faction attempts to find middle ground with earning access, cross over play, and not requiring a causal player, primary PvE player to win the super bowl (or wait for someone they don't know to win it from the same region) before going to a challenging area. - And don't underestimate how much effort a non/casual PvP person would take to get 1,000 faction.

Hopefully Anet will look at something like this as they examine the alternate methods Galie mentioned in her chat.

nomed · Apr 25, 2006, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trin Storm

1,000 Blathazar faction attempts to find middle ground with earning access, cross over play, and not requiring a causal player, primary PvE player to win the super bowl (or wait for someone they don't know to win it from the same region) before going to a challenging area. - And don't underestimate how much effort a non/casual PvP person would take to get 1,000 faction.

It's alot, but it would allow you to visit an area you usually wouldn't have access to. Don't know what's so hard to understand, UW and FoW are originally made for pvp players as a reward for their region winning the halls so PvE players shouldn't whine about not being able to access it.

Trin Storm · Apr 25, 2006, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomed

It's alot, but it would allow you to visit an area you usually wouldn't have access to. Don't know what's so hard to understand, UW and FoW are originally made for pvp players as a reward for their region winning the halls so PvE players shouldn't whine about not being able to access it.

I'd disagree with that - why should you or I be rewarded for anything some random person does just because they happen to live in the same part of the world? I don't know them - I have nothing to do with them - and one in my experience is something pvp players care little about. Most are not doing HoH to win favor - they are doing for the competion and to neat the other team. (and they like seeing their name splashed to the world). Note that your PvP access to HA is not dependent on a team from a region beating THK every 30 min to keep the door to HA open - wouldn't you hate that? (And I am in no way suggestion it should be just showing an example)

Anyway, under my plan - those people would still be rewarded for winning favor - just as they are now. My idea gives an alternate route in (for a variety of reaons) that does still require PvP and make reduce the rift between PvP and PvE (if such a thing is possible)

Solberg the Exiled · Apr 26, 2006, 02:37 AM // 02:37

I am of the opinion that PVE and PVP should not be linked. Anet can use many things that introduces a person to PVP without forcing it on them. I for one didn't start PVP until a few month after I started playing the game just because that's not what I wanted (I do PVP a lot now since I like it better than PVE). But I think if we look at the spectrum a bit differently, it can become a lot clear why it's bad to force a player to do one thing.

What if, for example, access to hero's ascent and GVG is only granted to people who have completed the entire game, Finished hell's precipice and cleared UW and FOW. What would happen then?

No, I am of the opinion that it's best to let the players decide at their own time when they want to start PVPing if they ever want to.

Fantus · Apr 26, 2006, 10:15 AM // 10:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomed

It's alot, but it would allow you to visit an area you usually wouldn't have access to. Don't know what's so hard to understand, UW and FoW are originally made for pvp players as a reward for their region winning the halls so PvE players shouldn't whine about not being able to access it.

Do you guys get a rank title for posting the same line in forums for 1,000 times?

allience · Apr 26, 2006, 11:10 PM // 23:10

i'm in hall winning teams pretty often and i can safely say nobody cares about the favor. in heroes' ascent these days good players/hoh guilds just team up in international districts, nobody cares in wich territory ur account is.
pve players who would actually want a certain territory to hold have no saying in it. they stand no chance at winning halls if they actually decide to try it.

i'm concerned about factions too because the pvp aspect will influence even more the pve aspect it seems. it's quite stupid because a lot of experienced pvp players don't care about pve aspect. the reason is because by doing pvp they don't have time to pve or they can't afford the top line pve gear.

think about it from a pvp'er point of view:
it takes AGES to buy and cap all skills for 1 pve char (i mean main +5 profession skills as secondaries). And everytime u make a new pve char u have to go through the same process again. myself i have 5 pve chars, lvl 20 primary skills unlocked, 15k armor, green weapons. what's sad about it is that almost always i have to make a pvp char to play properly. it's much faster, i can take a good look at the secondary skills, chose w/e i want etc etc. just the though on travelling to LA, then to the desert to change profession and then see IF i have a certain skill i need for a certain build unlocked makes me find my pve char useless. it takes me 2 mins to roll a char with everything i need.

Anet should stop MIXING so much those 2 aspects of the game. it's just wrong and poorly thought on all levels. i've played and enjoyed pve, i now play and enjoy pvp and to me it's like 2 totally different games. each has a different motivation. u can't expect a pve player to care about the rank 9 tigers and you can't expect a pvp player to care about some pve game area or some merchants who sell cheaper materials!

when i used to only pve and europe had the favor, i would always hope the americans would rush in HOH to take it back. it didn't even occur to me that pvp players don't care or that mixed teams could be created. now that pve is not my concern, well i'm 1 of the american server monks playing in an european guild that has some chinese ele in it. so this favor this is plain stupid as it does reflect an actual team that wants to win halls for higher pve area access. as long as pvp has that kind of control over pve, the poor pve players will be the only ones who will suffer.

Living Legend · Apr 27, 2006, 05:40 AM // 05:40

-Players who win consecutively really doesn't give a crap whether they have favor or not they just want fame.

-a lot of people b!tch about it.

-factions is coming out and there'll be new armors.

-when chinese territory which eventually probably happen, what will all the other territories do when they have 5 million people playing at a time, and we can't switch to those territories if we're US or European territory based for some reason, then more and more people will complain about it.

- Your paying 1k to get in, it should be accessible always not many people really care about favor but those people that do FOW and UW constantly.

lightblade · Apr 27, 2006, 06:00 AM // 06:00

"-when chinese territory which eventually probably happen, what will all the other territories do when they have 5 million people playing at a time, and we can't switch to those territories if we're US or European territory based for some reason, then more and more people will complain about it."

Yup...and that will be Anet's ultimate challenge.