Curse

Dougal Kronik · Apr 18, 2006, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Give the rewards to those that earn them. Keep the way Favor works for access from ToA. But reactivate the access from Lornar's Pass and have work with or without Favor.

That way if you fight your way to the temple - your rewards is access to the UW. Your trials - your rewards!

makosi · Apr 18, 2006, 03:05 PM // 15:05

I never understood why getting mauled in two hits by a bladed aatxe or fried by a shadow elemental was rewarding. The region with the favour of the Gods should be allowed to enter the land of chocolate, candy and bunny rabbits!

NatalieD · Apr 18, 2006, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banin Galori

Yes, favor and unlocks are there to encourage people to do both. What holds the two sides together is the fact that you're playing the same game, just fighting real people vs. AI.

That doesn't hold them together, though, and I'm mystified as to why you would think that it does. It just makes them two games that use the same basic structure to do different things. It's almost like saying that basketball and soccer are held together because they both use a ball.

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True, perhaps I am making that mistake. I know not everyone in the Europe region are Europeans. That is irrelevant. Most of the people there are.

...you could not have missed my point more. Every single player in the game's European region could be a native European and it wouldn't change what I said at all.

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Why does it not make sense to arbitrarily divide players based on geography and tell them how they do is dependent on the performance of someone he hasn't met? It's how most competitions work.

Um, no, actually it isn't.

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As for enjoying the gameplay, like I've said before, if the only thing you enjoy about PvE is UW/FoW, then I don't know why you even bought this game.

It doesn't have to be the only thing someone enjoys to make restricting it a lame idea. Besides, it's not like there's a huge amount of other stuff to do for a character who's finished all the missions and non-favor-dependent quests.

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Perhaps you misunderstand me. My point is that UW and FoW SHOULD be the rewards of competition, because it encourages people to play both PvP and PvE. Not that you're forced to, mind you. I'm arguing on a population-wide basis here, not an individual one.

a) That isn't what you said in the bit I quoted, and (b) yes, it's fairly obvious by now that that is your point. Restating it doesn't really help anyone.

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Great! I'm happy that you can help provide opportunities for people to access FoW and UW. You argue that the idea is stupid on principle, but I'm trying to illustrate the reason behind it.

Oh, you've illustrated the reasons just fine. They haven't changed my opinion of the idea, though.

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I don't know about you, but I think a region is quite big enough for you to choose your teams.

What the... what does that have to do with anything? The point I was trying to make is that it's silly to treat regions as meta-teams, which is what you're doing, because regions lack one of the most important aspects of teams.

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I see nothing wrong with dividing a huge population into a few groups to better foster competition. After all, it is what most other competitions do. You have the regional brackets in basketball, the American League and National League in baseball, etc... What's the problem?

Comparing favor regions to baseball leagues is... confusing. The leagues have competitions within themselves leading to a championship game between the winner of each league. I don't know much about baseball, but I haven't heard that being in the same league as the eventual champion unlocks a special kind of baseball you can't play otherwise.

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Perhaps the winner's chest is a much better reward. I'm not saying favor is perfect, I'm just defending the principle behind it.

As for your argument that people often don't get a chance to do UW/FoW after they've won a HoH match - again, you're thinking on too much of an individual basis. Sure, it might be inconvenient for you to take direct advantage of your victory. But, your victory provides opportunities for others, and if more people did what you did, there would be plenty of opportunities to go around. It's like sports - you win some, and you lose some. You can't expect to win everything. Really, that's part of the fun.

You're missing the point again. Sure, my victory provides opportunities for others. But when I want an opportunity myself, I have to wait for someone else to hold the halls for me first. What difference does it make if they're from the same region? (Using myself as a rhetorical example for convenience, here, even though I'm pretty unlikely to win the halls or go to FoW/UW myself.)

Ctb · Apr 18, 2006, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Comparing favor regions to baseball leagues is... confusing. The leagues have competitions within themselves leading to a championship game between the winner of each league. I don't know much about baseball, but I haven't heard that being in the same league as the eventual champion unlocks a special kind of baseball you can't play otherwise.

I hear that they can't even play the World Series unless the American baseball teams wins a gold medal in the summer olympics.

Banin Galori · Apr 18, 2006, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatalieD

That doesn't hold them together, though, and I'm mystified as to why you would think that it does. It just makes them two games that use the same basic structure to do different things. It's almost like saying that basketball and soccer are held together because they both use a ball.

That's like saying Guild Wars and Counterstrike are held together because they both use an avatar for your character - which, they are, in a very basic sense.

PvE and PvP have the same skills, same game mechanics, and often, same characters. Your analogy would have been correct if both basketball and soccer involved kicking balls into goals - which, they kind of do, in a way, just as Counterstrike and Guild Wars both involve killing other things.

If you take the sports analogy further with, let's say, basketball, PvE would be something like slam dunk contests, or playing around-the-world, while PvP would be playing a full-fledged game between two teams. Now, the former contests and games are usually thought of as training for an actual basketball game, as they help develop skills. Many Guild Wars players believe, however, would balk at the suggestion that PvE was training for PvP, which is acceptable. But you can't prevent them from encouraging PvP all the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatalieD

...you could not have missed my point more. Every single player in the game's European region could be a native European and it wouldn't change what I said at all.

I'm sorry, I guess I did. Would you please clarify then?

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Originally Posted by NatalieD

Um, no, actually it isn't.

Humor me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatalieD

It doesn't have to be the only thing someone enjoys to make restricting it a lame idea. Besides, it's not like there's a huge amount of other stuff to do for a character who's finished all the missions and non-favor-dependent quests.

Well, of course it's restricting. If it's not restricting, there would be no game, would there? You're playing a game. Games have restrictions. The most basic ones are often called "rules." They're there for a purpose. The purpose of restricting UW and FoW to when your region has favor is to encourage PvP. It's a reward. Hence, why it's restricted.

Your second point is very valid. If I'm not mistaken, you're saying that there isn't enough to do currently in PvE, and UW and FoW are a major part of people's fun, right? I'm sure a lot less people would be complaining if there were many more great areas in PvE that people could go to that are also special. (Then again, this is largely irrelevant to the argument.) This is also clearly going to be the case, considering the amount of content that will be coming with each chapter. When there are 4 chapters out, UW and FoW would be just two more areas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatalieD

a) That isn't what you said in the bit I quoted, and (b) yes, it's fairly obvious by now that that is your point. Restating it doesn't really help anyone.

No, sorry, now that I look again, you were quoting something else. What you did quote follows from the argument I gave, and that particular bit was simply reinforcing it.

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Originally Posted by NatalieD

Oh, you've illustrated the reasons just fine. They haven't changed my opinion of the idea, though.

*shrug* Well, I tried. Your opinion is yours to decide.

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Originally Posted by NatalieD

What the... what does that have to do with anything? The point I was trying to make is that it's silly to treat regions as meta-teams, which is what you're doing, because regions lack one of the most important aspects of teams.

There may be a better solution. But there does need to be a higher division.

You can't force people to PvP. Having people earn UW and FoW as a reward for their own PvP is not going to encourage anyone.

You can encourage people to PvP. Having benefits of a group winning the HoH apply to an entire region encourages more teams to PvP in general.

Thus: there has to be a division somewhere, in order to promote competition. It can't be at the individual level, because too few people would benefit. What's wrong if this division is completely arbitrary? The sample pool is large enough to basically even out most discrepancies in skill level. Perhaps a division system like the Kurzick/Luxon factions would be better, because it provides more opportunities while still promoting PvP.

Recall, of course, that the argument is to encourage PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatalieD

Comparing favor regions to baseball leagues is... confusing. The leagues have competitions within themselves leading to a championship game between the winner of each league. I don't know much about baseball, but I haven't heard that being in the same league as the eventual champion unlocks a special kind of baseball you can't play otherwise.

I was refering to your argument against arbitrary divisions, not using UW and FoW as a reward. "Unlocking a special kind of baseball" is irrelevant to this part of the argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatalieD

You're missing the point again. Sure, my victory provides opportunities for others. But when I want an opportunity myself, I have to wait for someone else to hold the halls for me first. What difference does it make if they're from the same region? (Using myself as a rhetorical example for convenience, here, even though I'm pretty unlikely to win the halls or go to FoW/UW myself.)

Like I've said above, you need a division somewhere to promote competition. You're not really promoting competition when the reward is there for you no matter who wins, are you?

Dougal Kronik · Apr 18, 2006, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Quote:

Like I've said above, you need a division somewhere to promote competition. You're not really promoting competition when the reward is there for you no matter who wins, are you?

Let the PvP players have their reward for winning the HoH - the chest!!

Let PvE players have their own reward for their own trials!! Getting to the Alternate Entrance to the UW/FoW!!!

chronosspawn · Apr 18, 2006, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Here's another sports analogy. An American must join a tennis team and win the Wimbledon Cup before a another or the same American may go to the Superbowl. What? I'm guessing that analogy make as much sense to you as favor make to me.

In regards to making PvE and PvP not hate each other as much, how about a bigger picture. Encouraging the youth who play these games to hate other countries. I don't know about you, but as an American, I feel there are enough countries who hate me all ready. Thanks video game, for making this worse. Just because ANet is in the states, won't really influence them that much. For example, WalMart, an American company, is the most popular company in the world. That popularity level certainly doesn't cary through to shoppers opinion of America though. Interesting point, many things that people like about WalMart are the same things they hate about the states. Sorry for the tangent, it's semi-relevant though. My point hopefully only applies to a small minority of ignorant players, but still.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatalieD

More sloppy thinking. The whole thesis of this thread is that FoW/UW should not be the rewards of competition. Trying to make a point against that thesis with an argument that depends on the antithesis being true is absurd.

Oh man, perfect wording. You and Gaile should discuss this over lunch some day. PS - yes, I know Gaile is just the voice, not the decision maker for ANet.

Zhou Feng · Apr 18, 2006, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rayne Nightfyre

I understand you, and pretty much agree with your frustration about the favor of the gods system. In my opinion, UW/FoW are the only two true challenging spots in Tyria's PvE right now. And when I'm locked out of that because my server's teams don't keep up with Hall of Heroes, that is hardly fair. I wish to see this favor system abandoned, but it's looking like Factions will introduce similar concepts, the only difference being it will be individual alliances and guilds against each other battling for certain privileges instead of whole servers (that's the way it appears to be anyway).

So it's obvious Factions isn't for me, but I will of course buy it and play it because the new professions and skills do look amazing so far. I guess trying to have an open mind and having a willingness to find new things to do will only help. ArenaNet's fully aware of the current situation with the favor system, and I do believe they will find a reasonable way to compromise, putting the fun back into the high-level content.

I once suggested that Favor be reworked in the following way:

PvP- Once The Favor is attained during the time the Favor lasts for said region all Faction gain gains a boost. Furhtermore special PvP Only arenas are open for combat or perhaps new diffrent PvP options becomes available while Favor lasts.

PvE- No longer Favor is attained in the same manner. Let it be that a person/group of person can undertake an Epic quest in Sorrow's Furnace/Tombs. This Epic quest is diffrent for both Maps but the end should be decent to rare rewards and the Mark. Passing said quest will gain the Gods Mark on said Character who participated in said Epic quest. This Mark will last a duration of X days. During the time the Character has Mark he can freely enter UW and/or FoW. Characters who are not marked can still gain access to UW/FoW but require a very sizable amount of money to enter it.

Zhou Feng · Apr 18, 2006, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dougal Kronik

Let the PvP players have their reward for winning the HoH - the chest!!

Let PvE players have their own reward for their own trials!! Getting to the Alternate Entrance to the UW/FoW!!!

Thats exactly what I meant, Id prefer though PvP players gaining Faction Boost while they have "Favor".

Banin Galori · Apr 18, 2006, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by chronosspawn

Here's another sports analogy. An American must join a tennis team and win the Wimbledon Cup before a another or the same American may go to the Superbowl. What? I'm guessing that analogy make as much sense to you as favor make to me.

Of course not. You're comparing two different games. Read my previous post if you wanted an explanation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chronosspawn

In regards to making PvE and PvP not hate each other as much, how about a bigger picture. Encouraging the youth who play these games to hate other countries. I don't know about you, but as an American, I feel there are enough countries who hate me all ready. Thanks video game, for making this worse. Just because ANet is in the states, won't really influence them that much. For example, WalMart, an American company, is the most popular company in the world. That popularity level certainly doesn't cary through to shoppers opinion of America though. Interesting point, many things that people like about WalMart are the same things they hate about the states. Sorry for the tangent, it's semi-relevant though. My point hopefully only applies to a small minority of ignorant players, but still.

What does that have to do with making PvE and PvP people not hate each other? Last time I checked, this whole regions thing wasn't divided by country.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dougal Kronik

Let the PvP players have their reward for winning the HoH - the chest!!

Let PvE players have their own reward for their own trials!! Getting to the Alternate Entrance to the UW/FoW!!!

Perhaps you missed the point. The point of having a PvE reward for PvP is to encourage PvEers to PvP, just as letting PvE unlocks carry to PvP encourages PvPers to PvE.

Letting each group have their own reward doesn't exactly do that, does it...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zhou Feng

PvP- Once The Favor is attained during the time the Favor lasts for said region all Faction gain gains a boost. Furhtermore special PvP Only arenas are open for combat or perhaps new diffrent PvP options becomes available while Favor lasts.

PvE- No longer Favor is attained in the same manner. Let it be that a person/group of person can undertake an Epic quest in Sorrow's Furnace/Tombs. This Epic quest is diffrent for both Maps but the end should be decent to rare rewards and the Mark. Passing said quest will gain the Gods Mark on said Character who participated in said Epic quest. This Mark will last a duration of X days. During the time the Character has Mark he can freely enter UW and/or FoW. Characters who are not marked can still gain access to UW/FoW but require a very sizable amount of money to enter it.

So you're rewarding PvE players for playing PvE and PvP players for PvP. That's great! There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, and in fact should happen more often. However, I'm trying to say there should also be elements that would encourage a PvE player to try out PvP, as well as a PvP player to try out PvE. The former is what UW/FoW is for right now, and the latter the unlocking system. If there was a better way to encourage people to try new things, I would gladly vote for it.

It's not like missing either will so cripple your game, people. No one's taking away something from you and giving it to someone else. The Favor system as it is now encourages people to try new things, or at least be more aware of everything. Is that so bad?

chronosspawn · Apr 18, 2006, 10:14 PM // 22:14

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!
I read Gailes message linked to earlier in this thread

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The fact is, if they follow the resolve of the Europeans, in six months they may have control the vast majority of the time

Oh man, I'm still busing up. GW IS A GAME... 6 months... she expects us to fight for it for 6 months. For consistent access that is. HA HE AH HA HA HA! Didn't they some marketing mumbo jumbo that the game was designed to be fun for casual player too? Of course, even with the faction awards increased, that still just isn't the case for PVP. But now it apparently isn't the case for PVE either. Yep, yep.... still busting up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banin Galori

Of course not. You're comparing two different games. Read my previous post if you wanted an explanation.

It's an ANALOGY, you could pick apart any analogy. Buy my point is, yeah, it makes no sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banin Galori

What does that have to do with making PVE and PVP people not hate each other? Last time I checked, this whole regions thing wasn't divided by country.

Nothing, it's far worse than PVP and PVE "hating" each other.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banin Galori

It's not like missing either will so cripple your game...

Actually, that's exactly what it's like. Sometimes I'm in the mood for a specific thing. Usually the case is I log on and want to PVP. And I can, wow! I don't have to first hope by luck the region I play on accomplished some goal better than other regions, and invite the opportunity to resent those opposing regions, which are divided by countries or groups of countries.

Evilsod · Apr 18, 2006, 11:50 PM // 23:50

This topic still going on... stop wasting your time. The favour will never get removed, its part of the game and the whole frigging point of PvP and seperate regions.

There are other areas to go other than FoW and UW you know. If you just logged on to go there then tough luck.

When Europe stop owning in HoH i may get a bit annoyed at the lack of the favour, but seriously, i'll get over it. Hell by that time i might of started PvPing properly..... never been a fan of Pugs for PvP and my guild is never online...

fenix · Apr 19, 2006, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Here is a way to make everyone happy. Remove favor from UW and FoW, and make it accessible and damn time you want. BUT, make the minimum party size 5, so farmers cant spend hour upon hour farming ectos and shards. Does no one understand this issue? If you could get to UW and FoW all the time, the economy would be screwed.

Plus, GW is designed as a PvP game, and Anet have said again and again that they want the two halves linked. Removing that main link would be stupid.

If you want favor, take your UW/FoW team and go help win favor back. "But I hate PvP!!" If that is the case, then don't whine, because this is how the game was made, and this is how it will stay.

Nilator · Apr 19, 2006, 04:00 AM // 04:00

I got myself accidently stuck in Euro districts, how sad, almost never not having favor. Sad, sad world.

Dougal Kronik · Apr 19, 2006, 04:15 AM // 04:15

Why do players have to be "encouraged" to do something they do not want to do!

If a PvP player never plays in the PvE environment, he can unlock all skills, runes, and mods.

If a PvE player logs into ToA and his region does not have favor - too bad, no FoW/UW for you! "Go play PvP if you don't like it! Oh,and since you are not Rank 6 - good luck finding anyone who will party with you. Go play with the others because we want to win the HoH. Because we want the chest and there is no other motivation for us to win, beside the Fame we will get! Whocares about you PvE players anyway!"

Stabber · Apr 19, 2006, 04:36 AM // 04:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarun

Perhaps if enough people complain, ANet may listen. The customer may not always be right; but in this case they are.

I seriously doubt that the favor issue has remained static for want of complainers.

Fantus · Apr 19, 2006, 09:00 AM // 09:00

It was argued over and over that the favor system is totally broken the way it is now. The favor system is probably the single most controversial feature in the game and it caused heated discussion since the day GW was released. The very fact that it totally split the game's population should be reason enough to change it even without the logical flaws it has. Anet is obsessed with it, though, and so I see little chance that it might get changed. So far they didn't care that the better part of all GW players hates it. Which is interesting because in all other instances they DID care about the players and they would change aspects in the game if enough players wanted that change.

Nevertheless I am going to make another stand against the favor system and I will collect the major arguments here in this post. Most of them I made in various posts here on this forum but maybe a single post is more readable for most persons. Here we go:

Why the favor system is both broken and bad

Part A: Why the favor system is broken

This part contains FACTS.

In most computer games, players play the game for in game rewards. They do certain things (like solving quests, killing enemies and so on) and get something for that (virtual gold, items, experience points and so on). I'd call it the basic principle of dealing out rewards in games. People work and they get rewarded for that work. The favor system violates this principle because it deals out rewards to people who didn't work for it and at the same time it doesn't reward the people who DID work. When a team wins favor in HoH, the "reward" is opening a completely different part of the game for players who did NOT win HoH at this time. Every player in ToA gets rewarded without working for it. At the same time, winning favor does have no meaning for the team(s) winning it because favor does not influence HA or any other part of the PvP part of the game. People might get (and are) rewarded without even trying to win HoH, ever. Therefore, the favor system is broken.
People arguing in favor of the current favor system would further tell you that since it's possible to go and win HoH yourself, the favor system is not broken. According to them, people have the chance to work for their own rewards. This is untrue. Guild Wars is online since one year now. There is one team winning HoH roughly every 10 minutes (that's 6 teams per hour). 360 days * 24 hours * 6 teams * 8 players = ~ 410,000 players. That is the total number of players who, in theory, could have won HoH so far. The true number is a fraction of that number because it would assume that every HoH winner did win only once. This is not the case, so the true number of HoH winners is much smaller than this. I'd estimate that it's somewhere between 10,000 and 40,000 players who have won HoH so far, but I am not going to use that guess here since we're talking facts and not guesses. Guild Wars has roughly 2 million players at this time so the total percentage of people being able to influence favor can not be higher than 20% of the GW population (if you'd use my estimation for the actual number of the HoH winners, the number would be around 2-3%). Therefore, the argument claiming that people can work for favor is invalidated. Only a fraction of all GW players can do this, due to physical contraints of the system.
The favor system is designed to link the PvE and the PvP parts of the game. It fails to do that because the link is only in ONE direction. The PvP part of the game (HoH) does influence the PvE part of the game (UW/FoW) but in the entire game there is no similar link back from PvE into PvP. It is a FACT that there is no requirement whatsoever to play PvE if you're interested only in the PvP part. All items, skills required for PvP can be gained solely by playing PvP. The is no valid argument why PvP should influence PvE when there is no similar link back from PvE into PvP. Therefore, the favor system is broken.

Part B: Why the favor system is bad

This part contains OPINIONS (you might or might not share)

The favor system locks the majority of all players out from interesting PvE areas (some would say, the only really interesting PvE areas) at any given time. People don't consider the ability to enter an area a reward, they consider the inablility to enter a punishment. Therefore, the favor system is bad.
It is impossible to play in UW/FoW with international guild teams. Since the favor systems allows only one territory at a time to enter UW/FoW, players from different territories can never play there together. Many guilds in GW are international guilds having players from different territories. The favor system disallows friends from different territories to play in UW/FoW. Therefore, the favor system is bad.
Since chances are that any given territory is more likely to gain favor during their primetime gaming hours, any player not able to play during these hours might never really have the chance to enter UW/FoW despite their territory might be sucessful in the system. A common example would be Australians playing on US servers since they didn't have their own servers. A system locking out players from areas pratically based on their gaming hours is.. bad.
Since there is no way to know in advance when a certain territory will have favor, there is no way to play UW/FoW groups in advance. Smaller guilds often rely on this sort of planning since it's the only way to get a full team together. Therefore, the favor system is bad.
The favor system is unbalanced. It puts territories of vastly different sizes against each other. Smaller territories have it much harder to succeed in it than large territories. Therefore, the favor system is bad.
The favor system simulates a virtual war between real existing countries. This is undesireable because this stimulates open racism and flaming between peoples. Therefore, the favor system is bad.
The favor system split the PvE and the PvP communities of the game. Pretty much all PvE only players seem to hate it while the PvP only players seem to be the only ones defending it. The favor system is the single most important source of flamewars between both playerbases. Therefore, the favor system is bad.
GW was designed to attract a certain type of gamer. The type who likes both PvE and PvP. In the favor system you can see that basic idea, of course. In reality GW attacts not only this type of players but it attacts pure PvE and pure PvP players as well. As a matter of fact, the "pure" type of players seem to be the majority of GW's playerbase. While this might be something that Anet didn't really see coming (I guess particulary the huge number of PvE only players did surprise them a bit), there is no good reason why this fact shouldn't be acknowledged and made part of the game now. With GW Factions, Anet moves in the right direction. Both PvE and PvP are important for alliance success. None is being favored over the other. Pure PvE can contribute and pure PvP players can contribute (and people who like both can do both). Nobody is being forced to take part in something they don't like. As it should be. The favor system is different because in it's very basic idea it forces people to do both PvE and PvP. Forcing people to do something they don't like is a bad idea. It's not work, it's a game. A game should be fun. Therefore, the favor system is bad (see note below).
Last but not least - and that's really my personal impression, I don't have numbers to back it up, of course - the total majority of the playerbase in GW seems to disagree with the favor system. That's more than enough reason that.. the favor system is bad.

Note: The "don't force people to do PvP if they don't want to" argument gets often attacked by the pro favor system people who will state that "GW is intended to be a PvP game". Which is not the case. There is no proof whatsoever that this statement is even close to be true and no developer or other responsible person at Anet has ever stated something like that. On the contrary, there are enough statements from Anet that both PvE and PvP are important aspects of the game.
Personally, I'd be very curious how the PvP only crowd (which is the type of players that will often claim that GW is a PvP game) would react IF the favor system wasn't broken and IF there was a link back from PvE into PvP forcing them to do something they don't like... Oh well, there was.. when GW was released, they had to play PvE to cap elite skills. They didn't really like it, as far as I can remember. The PvP only players complained long enough that Anet removed that requirement to play PvE (since then you can unlock skills with faction points). It's funny that the same players are now defending the favor system...

Note 2: Just so that you can place this post better - I am NOT a PvE purist who is bitching about having to play PvP to enter their cherished UW/FoW. I enjoy both PvE and PvP. I've solved the PvE part with 8 characters, I have a rank emote, a six digit number of Balthazar faction and I've won HoH. The question of being against the favor system has nothing to do with PvE vs. PvP, it has something to do with logic and reason.

Dougal Kronik · Apr 19, 2006, 01:27 PM // 13:27

Beautiful Fantus!!!!

Well thought out and well written.

I do think that Factions is going to require PvP players to play PvE if they want to participate in the competitive arenas like the Jade Sea and Fort Aspenwood. Missions like those will cause some PvE players to pick up PvP. But I, and many in my Guild, will not try to get to the HoH in the near future. Maybe after Chapter 4 or 5. The PvP aspect with PvE characters that have had to play to unlock skills and find/buy weapons and armor is what interests me. Call it the 'grind' or whatever, but I didn't know that PvP players used to have to cap elites, maybe they should bring that back. I think that would make these forums much more 'dynamic'.

sh4ft3d · Apr 19, 2006, 01:36 PM // 13:36

I still can't really empathize since not too long ago, it was American and Korean servers that had favor all the time. Nobody was complaining about how "We ALWAYS have favor. Why can't we do something other than make cash?" I guess I'm just bitter from those days, but whatever.

NatalieD · Apr 19, 2006, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantus

Personally, I'd be very curious how the PvP only crowd (which is the type of players that will often claim that GW is a PvP game) would react IF the favor system wasn't broken and IF there was a link back from PvE into PvP forcing them to do something they don't like... Oh well, there was.. when GW was released, they had to play PvE to cap elite skills. They didn't really like it, as far as I can remember. The PvP only players complained long enough that Anet removed that requirement to play PvE (since then you can unlock skills with faction points). It's funny that the same players are now defending the favor system...

Hey now. I like the rest of your post, but no fair tarring all us PVP players with the same brush. Some of us dislike favor as much as you do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sh4ft3d

I still can't really empathize since not too long ago, it was American and Korean servers that had favor all the time. Nobody was complaining about how "We ALWAYS have favor. Why can't we do something other than make cash?" I guess I'm just bitter from those days, but whatever.

People complain more about problems that affect them directly? Shocking!