Curse

Ctb · Apr 17, 2006, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Why are people still fighting over this? PvPers are clearly the ones who the game is being geared toward, get used to it. Us PvEers are SOL.

PvP builds are running amok with a certain skills sets? Welcome to Nerfville, PvE.

PvP whines that they have to PvE to get upgrades and runes at a reasonable rate? No problem, we'll just change faction so you don't have to PvE so much.

PvE whines that they can't reach their maps unless something in PvP happens to let them? Just shut up and PvP you lazy bums.

The only thing you HAVE to do in PvE is unlock skills, and you hardly have to spend much time doing that if you have guildies who will run you around to do it.

I wish they would just split the two completely. The "award" for winning HoH is stupid, they're not willing to fix it, so if they can't do it right, just don't do it.

chronosspawn · Apr 17, 2006, 06:52 PM // 18:52

LOL, how come no one has mentioned the real reason for favor? Save on server stress.

Since GW doesn't have a monthly server fee, this frees up some server space by encouraging PVE's to log off. I do PVE and PVP equally. Sometimes I'm in the mood to do either, but I usually log on with the intent of specifically doing "X". When X was TOA stuff, and we don't have favor, I used to just bitch in the public chat, but now I just log off and do something else. And that's frustrating, when GW is a game, and you want to have fun by playing it. It's a business decision, nothing more.

LOL, actually I like the concept of favor. Makes an all-instanced world feel more dynamic. But not all things that sound good in concept prove to work well in practice. This being a prime example. I know some of you mentioned the goofieness of PVE and PVP being tied together. Some of that is OK, but favor imposes unnecessary gameplay restrictions. What's even goofier though is favor being assigned to regions of our world (the "Earth/Real" world). Why would the GW gods care what is happening on Earth, a planet/dimension where no one worships them anyways?

But seriously, there's this and a couple of other things in the game that makes me think ANET wants us to buy the game, but not play it. Seen the new "you've been playing three hours, you should take a break" messages? A agree that that's a long time to play, not that many of us don't play longer. However, there are certain PVE areas that take 2-4 hours, plus time to get a team together. Time to get a team together can be very long unless your playing with your guild or a formula build.

Tell you what ANET, I'm set up for the American districts. Once America holds favor most of the time again, skipping Japan's chance to hold it, then ditch the whole favor thing, OK?

Jessyi · Apr 17, 2006, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Let's go on a quoting spree:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

So, if I understand you correctly, if you seperate the two player types and allow them to play in a way which both will be happy doing their own thing, it will cause hate? That doesn't make sense in any way. "Damn those PvEers for playing their game unimpeded! Just look at their hateful, smug, happiness!"

Ding ding! You win the "Obvious Prize". I'm not being sarcastic...it's a hard prize to win apparently.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mahanaxar

Wow, 4 months ago all the favor system was nice and dandy for american players.
Everyone on this forum was like "go win HoH, if you need favor", or "stop switching server and win for Europe".

But now the favor system sucks...how can it be?

I was complaining about the WaW system long before it was fashionable. Partly because I'm an arguementative asshole, partly because the system always HAS sucked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by koneko

Problem: those of us on the Asian servers can't change to to regions that gain favor (NA/Euro). At the moment, only those that are lucky enough (or stupid enough) to have two accounts (one NA/Euro) are able to play in the fun areas.

Man, that sucks. Why can't they? And if they can't, how did they ever get NA/Euro accounts? Well, whatever the cause, they've got even more of a right to scream than I do. Fight the power brothers!

But this...this is my favorite:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banin Galori

What's the problem with us? We're too lazy and self-centered. We believe that our own individual merits alone should be able to get us all the rewards we want. When we come against competition that's out of our league, we're too lazy to work harder to improve. Instead, we complain that the system is unfair.

The solution does not lie in splitting apart the game. The solution lies in rallying as a region to overcome the problem. Observe the enemy. Work out strategies to counter them. Post them on the forums, so everyone can benefit. Together, we can do this, and we can finally enjoy an aspect of the game that transcends individuals.

Is that a problem? In a skill based game, should not my individual merits (or skills if you prefer) allow me unconditional access to FoW whenever I want? I don't know how you'd measure "merit" here anyways, since I've made my position of PvE-PvP linkage being BS absolutely clear...

This attitude is the problem I have with the WaW system. I didn't COME HERE TO COMPETE. THOUSANDS OF US HAVEN'T! If I were told at day 1 that I'd be forced to PvP or risk losing my god-given right to bitch, I'd...I'd...I don't know what I'd do. But I'd be angry. Very, very angry. I'm angry now.

If I wanted to deal with arbitrary restrictions, politics, fighting, and competition, I'd turn of the EFFING GAME AND GO LIVE MY LIFE. At the end of the day, when I ought to be finished with my daily frustration and ready to play a little GW, only to be told what I can and cannot do by European PvPers...makes me want to snap. Or drink. A lot. I might go do that now.

@#$*@#$ing @#$&% Grrr....

-Jessyi

chronosspawn · Apr 17, 2006, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Exactly Jessyi. You want to play the game and have fun. Not try to play the part of the game you have fun with and be denied after a hard days work.

I really like Dougal Kronik's idea of putting access to them along lomars pass or some where hard. That would limit farming, because the build to get you there, would be different from the farming build once your in there. There's allready a shrine to the underworld guy there anyways. The FOW map could be somewhere on the west coast of Abbadon's Mouth. Have a boat to the next island on the NW, or open up some of the mountain to the SW with a shrine/portal to the war god.

Hunter Sharparrow · Apr 17, 2006, 10:55 PM // 22:55

I like that idea Chrono. Just to add though there should be a repeatable quest to take you to either statue that provides enough xp to remove any dp that anyone might have getting there. That way you begin either place with a fresh start just as you would now leaving from ToA.

quickmonty · Apr 17, 2006, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Don't need a quest to remove DP. When your server has favor and the statue is active you can pay to have DP removed, or to get a morale boost.

I believe all the statues are like that.

Hunter Sharparrow · Apr 17, 2006, 11:46 PM // 23:46

So instead of going in Clean from from ToA spending only 1k to enter, you suggest people pay the 1k then spend another depending on the dp you have.

NatalieD · Apr 17, 2006, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Jessyi, the quote you have with my name on it isn't something I said. That's something I quoted to rebut in much the same way as you did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banin Galori

It's a single game, people. It's called Guild Wars. Let's not divide one game into two any more than we have already. The two aspects of Guild Wars are meant to intertwine, and the game was meant to encourage people to do both aspects. Let's not separate this game into two.

It's divided into two by its very nature. Any attempts to combine those two parts are just artificial and pointless restrictions.

Quote:

You will not win HoH on your own. You may not be able to do it with your guild. But your efforts, combined with the efforts of everyone in your region, will let you win. How did Europe manage to claw its way to the top and keep favor? They banded together as a region, and helped themselves. Once again, European solidarity seems to have pulled them through.

How does that work, exactly? I mean, I'm not exactly a HA expert, but my understanding is that if two European teams meet in a match, it's winner-take-all just as much as if a European team faces an American one. How can a region band together?

Quote:

What's the problem with us? We're too lazy and self-centered. We believe that our own individual merits alone should be able to get us all the rewards we want. When we come against competition that's out of our league, we're too lazy to work harder to improve. Instead, we complain that the system is unfair.

It has nothing to do with competition being out of people's league. The people who are complaining about not being able to get to FoW/UW are, in large part, not the people who play in HA. Any competition is "out of their league", because they're not interested in competing!

Quote:

The solution does not lie in splitting apart the game. The solution lies in rallying as a region to overcome the problem. Observe the enemy. Work out strategies to counter them. Post them on the forums, so everyone can benefit. Together, we can do this, and we can finally enjoy an aspect of the game that transcends individuals.

Transcends individuals' interests, more like. Why should anyone have to band together (as if that's even possible) with people they have no connection to, don't care about, probably don't even like, to compete in an event they don't enjoy and don't care about, just to play the game they do want? It makes no sense.

quickmonty · Apr 18, 2006, 12:25 AM // 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter Sharparrow

I like that idea Chrono. Just to add though there should be a repeatable quest to take you to either statue that provides enough xp to remove any dp that anyone might have getting there. That way you begin either place with a fresh start just as you would now leaving from ToA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter Sharparrow

So instead of going in Clean from from ToA spending only 1k to enter, you suggest people pay the 1k then spend another depending on the dp you have.

Your choice .... clean from ToA, or go in from one of those other stautes ..... with DP or pay to have it removed.

Dougal Kronik · Apr 18, 2006, 12:48 AM // 00:48

The Temple to Grenth in Lornar's Pass actually was an alternate entrance to the UW at one time.

Hunter Sharparrow · Apr 18, 2006, 12:49 AM // 00:49

The spin I was putting on the idea was to make the new entrances the only ones and allow full access putting favor to rest. So the choice to either go from ToA w/o dp or the other way with possible dp is not there. So you provide quests, first of all to let new comers know of the location of these statues and second to give a large enough xp reward to clear any dp just like the ones in FoW and UW. To get this quest reward one would have to enter either place (which requires you to pay the money and be ascended) and talk to a ghost.

quickmonty · Apr 18, 2006, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter Sharparrow

The spin I was putting on the idea was to make the new entrances the only ones and allow full access putting favor to rest. So the choice to either go from ToA w/o dp or the other way with possible dp is not there. So you provide quests, first of all to let new comers know of the location of these statues and second to give a large enough xp reward to clear any dp just like the ones in FoW and UW. To get this quest reward one would have to enter either place (which requires you to pay the money and be ascended) and talk to a ghost.

I see. Let me compound that idea. We leave the entrances at ToA for when your region has favor (the way it is now) and add the other entrances that are always available ..... but ...... you either get there with no DP or pay a price to have it removed (or enter FoW/UW with DP). A bit more challenging that way.

chronosspawn · Apr 18, 2006, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by quickmonty

I see. Let me compound that idea. We leave the entrances at ToA for when your region has favor (the way it is now) and add the other entrances that are always available ..... but ...... you either get there with no DP or pay a price to have it removed (or enter FoW/UW with DP). A bit more challenging that way.

Yeah, that's what I was talking about. But realize if you walked to the entrance (which you would do when your country doesn't have favor), you wouldn't be able to pay for the DP removal (because you can only pay for those god services when your country has favor). But then that's just extra reson for a balanced group to get there... so you can battle your way there w/o DP.

But still, I don't see why the GW gods care if your European, American, Japanese, Korean, or whatever. In fact, I'm pretty sure they don't know what those countries are anyways.

Banin Galori · Apr 18, 2006, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatalieD

It's divided into two by its very nature. Any attempts to combine those two parts are just artificial and pointless restrictions.

How does that work, exactly? I mean, I'm not exactly a HA expert, but my understanding is that if two European teams meet in a match, it's winner-take-all just as much as if a European team faces an American one. How can a region band together?

It has nothing to do with competition being out of people's league. The people who are complaining about not being able to get to FoW/UW are, in large part, not the people who play in HA. Any competition is "out of their league", because they're not interested in competing!

Transcends individuals' interests, more like. Why should anyone have to band together (as if that's even possible) with people they have no connection to, don't care about, probably don't even like, to compete in an event they don't enjoy and don't care about, just to play the game they do want? It makes no sense.

I believe you're missing the whole point of my argument. It's true, the nature of Guild Wars is two sided, but those two sides are as much intertwined as they are separated. It's in the nature of Guild Wars just as much as shooting people is in the nature of an FPS. Sure, there are other things you can do, and sure, you don't have to do everything, but there are some decisions you have to make, because, after all, Anet is encouraging everyone to try PvP or to try PvE.

I'm pretty sure you don't understand what I meant by rallying. I was trying to say that you must think of it in the large scale and in the long term. When the average population of a region gets better at PvP, over time more chances to go to UW would open up. I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say with the Europeans meeting the Europeans in HA, though... perhaps you could clarify?

If some people have no interest in competing, then they cannot expect to claim right to the rewards of competition! Please don't say that UW and FoW are the only places you enjoy playing, because if it is so, you should have known that they are accessed through PvP before you bought the game.

Why can't you accomplish something on your own individual merits? It's simple. This is a team game, and it was designed as such. The regional aspect is simply the next level.

Anet is trying to encourage PvEers to PvP by offering them a reward for winning. If you don't like to PvP, don't. No one's forcing you. But you can't expect to take other people's rewards and claim it as your right, can you?

Jessyi · Apr 18, 2006, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Sorry NatalieD, I edited the quote info. My bad. Hey, I'm on your side.

And for this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banin Galori

If some people have no interest in competing, then they cannot expect to claim right to the rewards of competition! Please don't say that UW and FoW are the only places you enjoy playing, because if it is so, you should have known that they are accessed through PvP before you bought the game.

Why can't you accomplish something on your own individual merits? It's simple. This is a team game, and it was designed as such. The regional aspect is simply the next level.

Anet is trying to encourage PvEers to PvP by offering them a reward for winning. If you don't like to PvP, don't. No one's forcing you. But you can't expect to take other people's rewards and claim it as your right, can you?

Well, I suppose I can't argue that sentiment. That actually makes a lot of sense. I guess I never thought of UW and FoW as being the "rewards of competition" what with them being PvE areas and all.

Still, the way I see it is that giving access to FoW and UW to the winners of PvP tournaments is a lot like rewarding a diabetic with a chocolate bar.

-Jessyi

vaxmor · Apr 18, 2006, 03:48 AM // 03:48

"Still, the way I see it is that giving access to FoW and UW to the winners of PvP tournaments is a lot like rewarding a diabetic with a chocolate bar."

implied assumption: People who play and win at HA dont play UW/FoW PvE.

needless to say, this is incorrect.

NatalieD · Apr 18, 2006, 03:57 AM // 03:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banin Galori

I believe you're missing the whole point of my argument. It's true, the nature of Guild Wars is two sided, but those two sides are as much intertwined as they are separated. It's in the nature of Guild Wars just as much as shooting people is in the nature of an FPS. Sure, there are other things you can do, and sure, you don't have to do everything, but there are some decisions you have to make, because, after all, Anet is encouraging everyone to try PvP or to try PvE.

Stuff and nonsense. The only things that "intertwine" them are favor and unlocks, which are less intertwining than clumsy attempts to nail them together.

Quote:

I'm pretty sure you don't understand what I meant by rallying. I was trying to say that you must think of it in the large scale and in the long term. When the average population of a region gets better at PvP, over time more chances to go to UW would open up.

You're making the mistake I alluded to earlier in this thread, of treating players of the same region as interchangeable entities. In reality, those players have nothing significant in common. The regional distinctions are just as arbitrary as any other. And it makes no sense to arbitrarily divide players into groups and tell one player that access to the gameplay he enjoys is dependent on how well some other players he's never met perform at a completely different kind of gameplay he couldn't care less about, just because they happen to be in the same group as him.

Quote:

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say with the Europeans meeting the Europeans in HA, though... perhaps you could clarify?

I guess I misunderstood what you were saying about banding together. Never mind that.

Quote:

If some people have no interest in competing, then they cannot expect to claim right to the rewards of competition!

More sloppy thinking. The whole thesis of this thread is that FoW/UW should not be the rewards of competition. Trying to make a point against that thesis with an argument that depends on the antithesis being true is absurd.

Quote:

Please don't say that UW and FoW are the only places you enjoy playing, because if it is so, you should have known that they are accessed through PvP before you bought the game.

If by "you" you mean me, personally, then I'll repeat what I said in the first post - I don't care about PVE, I don't care about the FoW or UW, I've never been to either and probably never will. I'm arguing against favor because I'm opposed to stupid ideas on principle, even ones that have no effect on me.

Quote:

Why can't you accomplish something on your own individual merits? It's simple. This is a team game, and it was designed as such. The regional aspect is simply the next level.

Regions as higher-level teams fails, as an analogy, because teams are formed by choice and regions by accident of geography. (Random Arena being an exception teamwise, of course, but there are reasons why it's considered the bottom of the barrel for PVP.)

Quote:

Anet is trying to encourage PvEers to PvP by offering them a reward for winning.

The hall-winners' chest is a much better reward for PVEers to PVP. The favor is an absolutely silly way to encourage that - as somebody already pointed out, many players only have a certain amount of time to play each night. To form a team, win one's way to the hall, and hold it six times takes enough time that they won't be able to go into the FoW/UW after they do it. And by the next night, the favor will likely have shifted again. In other words, for a lot of players, winning the Halls won't help them get to the FoW/UW, even if they can do it. Are they ultimately any better off than if they just sat around waiting for someone else to win it for them? I can't see how.

Quote:

If you don't like to PvP, don't. No one's forcing you. But you can't expect to take other people's rewards and claim it as your right, can you?

See my fourth paragraph again.

Jessyi · Apr 18, 2006, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by vaxmor

"Still, the way I see it is that giving access to FoW and UW to the winners of PvP tournaments is a lot like rewarding a diabetic with a chocolate bar."

implied assumption: People who play and win at HA dont play UW/FoW PvE.

needless to say, this is incorrect.

Hmm...I'll reword that for you. Implied assumption: Dedicated PvEers play UW/FoW a lot more than dedicated PvPers. Sorry for the confusion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatalieD

More sloppy thinking. The whole thesis of this thread is that FoW/UW should not be the rewards of competition. Trying to make a point against that thesis with an argument that depends on the antithesis being true is absurd.

If by "you" you mean me, personally, then I'll repeat what I said in the first post - I don't care about PVE, I don't care about the FoW or UW, I've never been to either and probably never will. I'm arguing against favor because I'm opposed to stupid ideas on principle, even ones that have no effect on me.

Regions as higher-level teams fails, as an analogy, because teams are formed by choice and regions by accident of geography. (Random Arena being an exception teamwise, of course, but there are reasons why it's considered the bottom of the barrel for PVP.)

Nat, you are a God.

-Jessyi

Banin Galori · Apr 18, 2006, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatalieD

Stuff and nonsense. The only things that "intertwine" them are favor and unlocks, which are less intertwining than clumsy attempts to nail them together.

Yes, favor and unlocks are there to encourage people to do both. What holds the two sides together is the fact that you're playing the same game, just fighting real people vs. AI.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatalieD

You're making the mistake I alluded to earlier in this thread, of treating players of the same region as interchangeable entities. In reality, those players have nothing significant in common. The regional distinctions are just as arbitrary as any other. And it makes no sense to arbitrarily divide players into groups and tell one player that access to the gameplay he enjoys is dependent on how well some other players he's never met perform at a completely different kind of gameplay he couldn't care less about, just because they happen to be in the same group as him.

True, perhaps I am making that mistake. I know not everyone in the Europe region are Europeans. That is irrelevant. Most of the people there are.

Why does it not make sense to arbitrarily divide players based on geography and tell them how they do is dependent on the performance of someone he hasn't met? It's how most competitions work. As for enjoying the gameplay, like I've said before, if the only thing you enjoy about PvE is UW/FoW, then I don't know why you even bought this game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatalieD

More sloppy thinking. The whole thesis of this thread is that FoW/UW should not be the rewards of competition. Trying to make a point against that thesis with an argument that depends on the antithesis being true is absurd.

Perhaps you misunderstand me. My point is that UW and FoW SHOULD be the rewards of competition, because it encourages people to play both PvP and PvE. Not that you're forced to, mind you. I'm arguing on a population-wide basis here, not an individual one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatalieD

If by "you" you mean me, personally, then I'll repeat what I said in the first post - I don't care about PVE, I don't care about the FoW or UW, I've never been to either and probably never will. I'm arguing against favor because I'm opposed to stupid ideas on principle, even ones that have no effect on me.

Great! I'm happy that you can help provide opportunities for people to access FoW and UW. You argue that the idea is stupid on principle, but I'm trying to illustrate the reason behind it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatalieD

Regions as higher-level teams fails, as an analogy, because teams are formed by choice and regions by accident of geography. (Random Arena being an exception teamwise, of course, but there are reasons why it's considered the bottom of the barrel for PVP.)

I don't know about you, but I think a region is quite big enough for you to choose your teams. I see nothing wrong with dividing a huge population into a few groups to better foster competition. After all, it is what most other competitions do. You have the regional brackets in basketball, the American League and National League in baseball, etc... What's the problem?

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatalieD

The hall-winners' chest is a much better reward for PVEers to PVP. The favor is an absolutely silly way to encourage that - as somebody already pointed out, many players only have a certain amount of time to play each night. To form a team, win one's way to the hall, and hold it six times takes enough time that they won't be able to go into the FoW/UW after they do it. And by the next night, the favor will likely have shifted again. In other words, for a lot of players, winning the Halls won't help them get to the FoW/UW, even if they can do it. Are they ultimately any better off than if they just sat around waiting for someone else to win it for them? I can't see how.

Perhaps the winner's chest is a much better reward. I'm not saying favor is perfect, I'm just defending the principle behind it.

As for your argument that people often don't get a chance to do UW/FoW after they've won a HoH match - again, you're thinking on too much of an individual basis. Sure, it might be inconvenient for you to take direct advantage of your victory. But, your victory provides opportunities for others, and if more people did what you did, there would be plenty of opportunities to go around. It's like sports - you win some, and you lose some. You can't expect to win everything. Really, that's part of the fun.

Tarun · Apr 18, 2006, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Perhaps if enough people complain, ANet may listen. The customer may not always be right; but in this case they are.