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Old Jun 15, 2006, 03:54 PM // 15:54   #201
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Originally Posted by Ensign
Which is why two professions, warriors and monks, are an order of magnitude more important than all of the others. Warriors kill things, and monks keep things alive. They are the keystones of Guild Wars. In a vacuum where no one understands what's going on, the best build is either 6 warriors and 2 monks, or 5 warriors and 3 monks. Every other profession exists to either help your warriors and monks do their jobs, or to prevent the other teams warriors and monks from doing their jobs.
And therein lies why Warriors have such a piss-poor attitude toward other classes -- they believe only Warriors are essential, and that every other class "serves" them. This is why Warriors are almost always the first ones to rage quit, and why they make such jerks fo themselves telling other players what to do.

Turn your theory around -- maybe the Warrior and Monk exist to support the Elementalist and Ranger? The warrior's job is to block the enemy while the Elementalist (or Ritualist, or Ranger) does major damage?

I just ran The Dragon's Lair with four rangers, an elementalist, a monk, a rit, and an assassin. No warriors. We won, with bonus.

Warriors are not the god of the game, they are *not* absolutely essential, and when they stop think of themselves as indiepsnible, the game will be a alot more enjoyable. The game is about teamwork, not warriors.
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Old Jun 15, 2006, 07:11 PM // 19:11   #202
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Originally Posted by Chicken Rice Seller
Dude ...that is so not true about elem sux in PVP...or you never pvp before..
E/M is the most important role ,heal party spammer ,slowing down targets with water magic or doing ramdom spike damage and who can forget the warder.
Heal party is still a monk skill. Slowing down targets isn't exclusive to Elementalist and frequently water magic sucks to use in PvP. Long recasts with very little damage.

The spiker is good, but frankly I like the Ranger spikes better. The Wards are very useful

The thing about Elementalist is they are so easy to shut down because they are so prone to man different attacks. The long cast times make you easy pickings for Melee players and also Disruption. It is so easy to interupt elementalist and it seems like every other class has some sort of interupt. The closest thing the elementalist have is Gale or Earthquake
Last edited by LoyalSoldier; Jun 15, 2006 at 07:19 PM // 19:19..
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Old Jun 15, 2006, 09:31 PM // 21:31   #203
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Originally Posted by Luciora
Ok I am curious here... There is a huge trend saying that Eles are pathetic and they don't deal any damage. Is this aimed at PvE or PvP?
Mostly focused on PvP, because that's the place where optimization is really pushed. If you run something bad in PvP, you lose more than you win and the results speak for themselves. In PvE standards are abysmal and it's not trivial to figure out who's really pulling a team along. Poor play or poor builds are not punished because the game is designed to be accessable. For example, when I go to cap skills with my monk I run a signet smiting build with several capture signets, and even a build with that little firepower is more than enough to get through PvE in this game.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Luciora
A warrior has to work hard at getting hits like this against enemies with armour (same as the ele).
A warrior doesn't have to get hits like that to outdamage an elementalist, because he attacks upwards of three times as fast. He is also not spending any energy on a significant majority of those attacks, and the attacks he does make ignore armor.


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Originally Posted by Luciora
So why are you saying that an Ele sucks?!?
No one is saying that the entire profession sucks. The argument being presented is that elementalists suck at *dealing damage*.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacho
Because in PvE, there aren't really any sustained battles for you to hit your energy barrier.
Even moreso than that, they never get punished for hitting the recharge barrier either, nor are they expected to perform any roles besides dealing damage. They can load up their bar with spells with long recharges, drop all of them on a mob, see the pretty effect, then wait for both their energy and skills to recharge before going to the next mob.

This also helps explain why energy management is held in so little regard by generic PvE players, while max energy is so valuable. It's not just a holdover from other games, it's that self-paced PvE play with lots of downtime encourage those sorts of things.


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Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote
And therein lies why Warriors have such a piss-poor attitude toward other classes
I would argue that the piss-poor attitude of a typical warrior has less to do with the strengths and weaknesses of the profession, and more to do with the sorts of players that are attracted to the icon of the profession. Young males, particularly ones struggling with their own security issues, are much more likely to be drawn to the icon of a big, strong warrior with a huge weapon and heavy armor leading a team than, say, the prettyboy mesmer who sits in the back and makes purple sparklies.

Hence back when I first played the game and was stuck in PUG-land, I would weed out warriors by avatar first and foremost - female models always got preference, and shorter male models after that. Sure, it wasn't perfect, but there was a very strong correlation between those attributes and the attitude of the person behind them. On the flip side, it was very, very rare to find a mesmer player with a terrible attitude. In fact I can't remember ever grouping with one.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote
they believe only Warriors are essential, and that every other class "serves" them.
It's a bit more complicated than that, due to the abundance of warriors for reasons that should be obvious by now. Warriors are essential, but there are way more than you'll ever need in any outpost. Monks, on the other hand, are similarly essential and *scarce*. Monk is the antithesis of your typical teenage gamer, so they're underrepresented for how essential they are. Since everyone is waiting around for a monk so they can play, the monk holds the power in the group. Can't really blame 'em for waving it around a little.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote
Turn your theory around -- maybe the Warrior and Monk exist to support the Elementalist and Ranger?
Well you could theorize that. Then you could test that theory and run a team of elementalists and rangers, without any warriors or monks, and see how it performs. After that, you could contrast that stunning failure with the strength of the warrior + monk teams, and it's pretty easy to conclude that your 'opposite theory' has no basis in reality whatsoever.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote
I just ran The Dragon's Lair with four rangers, an elementalist, a monk, a rit, and an assassin. No warriors. We won, with bonus.
I ran the Dragon's Lair with three warriors and a monk. We won handily, with bonus.

I completed Thunderhead Keep (with bonus) with an elementalist with no skills on its bar and six henchmen.

I also ran through segments of the petrified forest capping skills with the amazing monk build consisting of the three smiting signets, Mantra of Inscriptions, three capture signets, and a hard res (which I never used).

PvE is such a trivially easy environment, in general, that drawing conclusions about what's good and what's not from single success cases is ridiculous. In my experience, a team with 2 good players and reasonable templates will complete any mission in the game, regardless of the competence or strength of the rest of the players on the team.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote
The game is about teamwork, not warriors.
You can make a team without warriors or monks. You can also steer your car with your feet. That doesn't make it a good idea.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LoyalSoldier
The spiker is good, but frankly I like the Ranger spikes better. The Wards are very useful
As a spike, rangers are strictly better. The value of elementalists in a spike is Blinding Flash, Gale, and potentially Wards that make your defense much more durable while you spike the other team.

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-CxE
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Old Jun 17, 2006, 05:50 AM // 05:50   #204
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Originally Posted by LightningHell

Rofl. Most important role?
Well correction, they meant not be the most important role but there are aleast 1 of them in gvg battles , no ?
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Old Jun 17, 2006, 07:22 AM // 07:22   #205
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Originally Posted by Chicken Rice Seller
Well correction, they meant not be the most important role but there are aleast 1 of them in gvg battles , no ?
No.

I could do with a team of 2 BoonProts, 2 CripShots, 2 Warriors, and 2 Domination Mesmers just fine. Elementalists are only existent because they provide energy to spam spells from other classes, and at the same time have the useful-but-not-useful-enough-to-waste-a-character-on ability to blind opponents. I would never try to run a pure Elementalist, if it were not a spike.
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Old Jun 20, 2006, 03:18 AM // 03:18   #206
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So... after reading this thread, is there even a point in playing an Elementalist?

I've been playing one for a few days, just finished Nahpui Quarter, and she's a Survivor (1) and still going. I'm enjoying it for the versatility (Earth for defensive style, Fire for group offense, Air for single-target offense, Water for crowd control) and the ability to use secondary spellcaster abilities well - but it's getting really depressing. I play my Ele, I have a blast (no pun intended) with it. I haven't PvPed with it yet (going for Legendary Survivor), so I don't know anything about that side of the game as an Ele. But then I come to various forums, and all I see is "Elementalist sucks" over and over and over, and it gets pretty depressing and makes me not want to play.

I've been playing Factions for a month (played Prophecies at release for a little while off-and-on, never really committed), and I've been constantly making and re-making characters trying to find my niche. I finally give Ele a whirl - it seemed like a good balance of offense, defense, ranged, and not being ridiculously overplayed (i.e. Warrior) that I just wasn't finding in other classes. Ranger is blah to me, Warrior is overplayed, Monk cure-botting /yawn, Mesmer just isn't my style, Ritualist /yawn, Assassin too squishy and VERY unwanted, Necromancer... the only other class I'm genuinely considering.

But from reading this, it seems like the only way I'll get to experience the content of this game to the fullest is by playing either a Warrior or a Monk - and I don't want to be a cure-bot. Is this true? >.> I'm not looking to be a special and unique snowflake or anything, but at the same time I definitely don't want to end up being "just another Warrior" to get anywhere in this game - I don't want to be one of the Warriors that seem to make up 95% of Kaineng Center at any given time.

Blah. ; ;
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Old Jun 20, 2006, 03:57 AM // 03:57   #207
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Snippy.
Ellys aren't bad, they just aren't what they say they are.
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Old Jun 20, 2006, 04:07 AM // 04:07   #208
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They aren't what who says they are? Elementalists can focus on area wide damage, single target damage, defense, or hexing and snaring. And they can do good damage in either area, some more then others. I don't know where it says Elementalists are necessarily the best damage dealers. I know it's been said they can do the most damage of any class in one hit/spell, and this I do agree with, but the damage is not always constant and depends a lot on the situation. I mean spells like fireball, meteor swarm, etc all have great potential to do big damage, but of course because they are affected by armor they won't always do the big damage. So that being said, they're not the all around best damage dealers, but I do personally think they can out damage anyone in the right situation.
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Old Jun 20, 2006, 04:32 AM // 04:32   #209
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In PvE? I rolled a necromancer and it basically outclasses the ele in every way for PvE. Spiteful Spirit, minions, armor ignoring damage everywhere - it's no contest. I still enjoy playing my ele - it's actually an ideal profession for playing with henchmen, since it shores up your defense but in a way that doesn't make calling targets a pain - but the difference in raw power is palpable. If you enjoy blowing things up, roll a necromancer, it really is the best class for it.

Peace,
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Old Jun 20, 2006, 05:29 AM // 05:29   #210
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I'll give Necro a whirl when I get off work in 4.5 hours and see how I like it. It's the only class I haven't played through a newb area (Pre-Searing or Shing Jea) so I really have no idea what I'm getting into, should be interesting.

Thanks for not just blowing me off and calling me a stupid newb. =)

I know Eles aren't the glass cannons they're "supposed" to be, but I'm honestly content in playing a support role with some decent damage spells thrown in for good measure. I ran Vizunah Square with the healer henchie, me (E/Mo) and another E/Mo who seemed to only be nuking. I pretty much spammed Heal Party, and dropped a Fireball/Meteor when health bars seemed stable and there was a group of half-health mobs beating on someone - that kind of playstyle is something I'm comfortable with in PvE (especially as a Survivor XD). I think my biggest concern is PvP, but even then, it seems like Eles are still useful - just not as damage dealers, which is okay with me.

I guess I'm weird, I like acting as an indirect damage dealer in PvP - if I'm healing/buffing/debuffing/doing some light damage that is helping Warriors, Rangers, etc. deal their damage that much better, then I'm benefitting the team, which will in turn benefit me. I'm not a selfish player, and I didn't pick the Elementalist class as a "ZOMG I WILL LVL TEH BATTLFELD WIT MY UBAR NOOX"

Anyways, enough rambling. I'll continue with my Ele, and switch between Necromancer and Warrior as I get bored/frustrated. =) Thanks!
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Old Jun 20, 2006, 05:46 AM // 05:46   #211
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Originally Posted by CaptainRansom
I know Eles aren't the glass cannons they're "supposed" to be, but I'm honestly content in playing a support role with some decent damage spells thrown in for good measure. I ran Vizunah Square with the healer henchie, me (E/Mo) and another E/Mo who seemed to only be nuking. I pretty much spammed Heal Party, and dropped a Fireball/Meteor when health bars seemed stable and there was a group of half-health mobs beating on someone - that kind of playstyle is something I'm comfortable with in PvE (especially as a Survivor XD). I think my biggest concern is PvP, but even then, it seems like Eles are still useful - just not as damage dealers, which is okay with me.
You're welcome.

And yeah, we do a LOT of Heal Party spamming in PvP.
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Old Jun 20, 2006, 07:13 AM // 07:13   #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainRansom
I'll give Necro a whirl when I get off work in 4.5 hours and see how I like it. It's the only class I haven't played through a newb area (Pre-Searing or Shing Jea) so I really have no idea what I'm getting into, should be interesting.
Basically if you want to play offense with a caster necro is the place to be. You have a good amount of self-defense as well, so it works out nicely. They blow people up nicely. =)


Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainRansom
I know Eles aren't the glass cannons they're "supposed" to be, but I'm honestly content in playing a support role with some decent damage spells thrown in for good measure. I ran Vizunah Square with the healer henchie, me (E/Mo) and another E/Mo who seemed to only be nuking. I pretty much spammed Heal Party, and dropped a Fireball/Meteor when health bars seemed stable and there was a group of half-health mobs beating on someone - that kind of playstyle is something I'm comfortable with in PvE (especially as a Survivor XD). I think my biggest concern is PvP, but even then, it seems like Eles are still useful - just not as damage dealers, which is okay with me.
If that's the way you want to play a class then ele really is a good place for you. Take a bunch of utility and a couple of damage spells for the right situations and start filling in holes on the team. It works out fairly well in my experience.

PvP should be fine if that's what you want, since it's basically the job eles have been filling for months. Spam Heal Party, keep warriors blind and/or snared, drop wards on your vulnerable parts, and toss a DD or snare when the warriors tell you they're unloading adrenaline. Eles have a good set of defense/support templates to choose from.

Peace,
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Old Jun 20, 2006, 01:30 PM // 13:30   #213
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ok, i know it has been said but im saying it, STAR BURST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old Jun 20, 2006, 01:36 PM // 13:36   #214
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Honestly, I don't see the problem. Has anyone ever heard of: Wards, AoE, armor ignore damage, ether prodigy, A huge enrgy pool, pressure in general, etc.
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Old Jun 20, 2006, 01:50 PM // 13:50   #215
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Originally Posted by General Typhus
Honestly, I don't see the problem. Has anyone ever heard of: Wards, AoE, armor ignore damage, ether prodigy, A huge enrgy pool, pressure in general, etc.
Wards: utility.
AoE: Why bother?
Armor Ignore Damage: Spikes.
Ether Prodigy: Owns. Period.
Huge Energy Pool: ...
Pressure in general: ?????
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Old Jun 20, 2006, 11:40 PM // 23:40   #216
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Originally Posted by LightningHell
Wards: utility.
AoE: Why bother?
Armor Ignore Damage: Spikes.
Ether Prodigy: Owns. Period.
Huge Energy Pool: ...
Pressure in general: ?????
I don't know if it has been stated whether or not this is PvE or PvP, but in HA eles are PRESSURE. On any altar map, or map with any chokepoints at all an ele or two provides massive area damage to the enemy team.
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Old Jun 20, 2006, 11:44 PM // 23:44   #217
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I don't know if it has been stated whether or not this is PvE or PvP, but in HA eles are PRESSURE. On any altar map, or map with any chokepoints at all an ele or two provides massive area damage to the enemy team.
Oh, okay.

I was thinking more in a GvG perspective.
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Old Jun 22, 2006, 04:15 PM // 16:15   #218
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I think eles are best at doing "shock" damage in PvE, all the other classes need to slowly build up damage like necros and mesmers with ss and empathy or warriors with adrenaline. There is no other class which can do 100+ damage right at the start of a battle.
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Old Jun 22, 2006, 09:36 PM // 21:36   #219
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There is no other class which can do 100+ damage right at the start of a battle.
Assassin.
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Old Jun 22, 2006, 11:08 PM // 23:08   #220
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I have ele and necro, ele my first char, have it since 9 months, total exp = 500k. With Ele I made ~100-200k 5 months.

Necro, 3 months, exp: 950k. Necro I made ~500-600k 2 1/2 Months.

Current Metagame is for Necros
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