Curse

LightningHell · May 14, 2006, 11:44 PM // 23:44

He/she's probably doing it in Ascalon.

Andyke · May 17, 2006, 03:02 PM // 15:02

It seems that all of you have forgotten that this is not a 1vs1 game, do you actually know what damage two ellementalist that are constantly been healed by monks can do?

I remember being in the situation where me and my friend (e/ne) were being attact by 4 warriros and we didn’t move, we casted, casted and casted some more until they droped on the ground.
So what if I have less dmg, warrior is dead and I am still alive. Having a good team working together is so much more then having more dmg!!! Ellementalists are indeed a utility character, so is the monk, the mesner, warrior, etc …

My primary goal is to defend my monk, I would attack a warrior at any time if he goes for my monk, hell I would even die for him. During that time my team members would have noticed the situation and will go for the warrior and he will probably die. There is more honour and respect in dying for a team member then to shout that you have more damage! Another thing is that when team members are cornered by warriors and we start nuking them … they run away, giving them enough time to get away and regain energy. Thank you ellementalist for helping us once again!

And in conclusion : Ellementalist make pretty magic

Buoyancy · May 17, 2006, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andyke

It seems that all of you have forgotten that this is not a 1vs1 game, do you actually know what damage two ellementalist that are constantly been healed by monks can do?

Yes, I do. It's the same damage or less than two warriors that are constantly being healed by monks, except that the warriors require less energy to be healed, and also don't require a total of 8 pips of energy regen to do that much damage. The relevant information has already been posted at least four times in this thread, but here it is again.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...y+nuking+sucks

I wish we could get a moratorium on people who respond to threads like this without even bothering to read the relevant information.

Maria The Princess · May 18, 2006, 03:05 AM // 03:05

my 2 cents:

if a mesmer is using air amgic it doesnt mean hes a mesmer build. its a way to make a fastcasting ele

chikorita23 · May 19, 2006, 09:13 PM // 21:13

People whom create this topic, no offense... simply lack of knowledge on Elementalist.

Obviously, majority of GW players... probably including Elementalist player are stereotype on Fire Elementalist, and to be more specific "Meteor Shower" with echo. Well, I'd laugh if someone critize Elementalist just because GW tone down AoE! Yes GW do so, just because so we can play Elementalist with higher tactics instead of No-Brainers.

Hello? Ever try make elementalist and test it in PvE and PvP? Ever use something other then "fire?" Ever actually think up ways to combine AoE and help your ally? I have two Elementalists, I let them focus on each elements. If you MUST use Fire Elementalist.... yes Meteor Shower is nice, but with certain weapon it recharge your spell faster and with certain elite you WON'T have Exhuaction and cost very less energy! And even if your Meteor shower is recharging?? Hello... there are dozen or more spells to use!

And.... Ele does nothing then Warrior? Ele no good in PvP? I kill especially Warriors easily with Water Elementalist both in PvE and Pvp! (Especially in PvP) Warrior will never ever reach me with all the snare + damage! And ever check the new Ele update? They strengthen Water Trident and few other Water and Earth spells.

With Rust + Icy Prism, I will easily disable any signet for 10 sec, Warrior's healing signet included!

I'm not saying Warrior is bad. It's more like GW won't.... suicide his own creation, GW made all classes and change it from time to time, just to balance out the game. Every class has its "VARIOUS" way to master with. There is no such thing as which class is useless.

Phades · May 20, 2006, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

Some more added notes because it gives me a headache when people point out that a warrior has higher dps than an ele

1. A warrior must be in melee range to do his damage, running around like an idiot drastically lowers warrior damage. A warrior spike is kind of a joke, are they just going to run towards the enemy and hope no one notices?
2. A warrior must charge adrenaline to use many of his skills, many skills exist to remove adrenaline/slow it down.

Clearly you have not seen a W/E at work. You also fail to realize that a fleeing character is effectivly dead for the rest of his team. In addition to that moving out of striking range nullifies anyone, not just warriors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

3. A warrior has high DPS on ONE AND ONLY ONE target. An ele is far superior for softening up a mob so a warrior can kill each individual thing that much faster. (Just try and outdamage an ele with AoE with your triple chop or yeti smash. Let me know how it works out.)

Considering the big aoe elementalist damage is mitigated by armor, unless of course you are trying to chase around people like a warrior with crystal wave, while the bulk of warrior damage through skills ignores AL and has armor penetration for the portion that does not. On top of that, you can buff warrior damage further, which makes the comparison stupid for a lack of a better word. Rangers shine a little bit more in this instance though due to how their skills function. Incidentially, the necro in this situation is technically doing the "most damage", but its still delivered through the physical attackers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

4. Warriors are very easy to shutdown and possess few counter skills. In that respect, they're a sort of basic class that all other classes can shutdown, which makes sense, a warrior is just raw damage in a tin can, the simplest character in the game.

More to the point, if every profession did not have warrior counters, there would be alot more people crying on the forums that warriors are overpowered. You are forgetting that they *need* those counters to survive against a warrior, while against an elementalist the same is not true. Too many skills that originate from monks and rits that help against physical damage dealers can also nearly completely neuter the elementalist damage, while other classes do not really notice their effects at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

5. Your much lauded frenzy sure sucks when an obsidian flame catches you with your pants down eh?

If elementalists had a way to multiply their damage output by that much at the same side effect, i guarentee that every single one would use it. The difference is that everything would murder the ele, opposed to just a select few skills that really put pain into a warrior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

6. An elementalist does not depend on attunements, stop saying they do. They're the easiest to use, but are fragile. Glyph of energy is a good choice, there's a boatload of new ones to use, ether prodigy as always a favorite. Just because enchantments can be removed doesn't mean they're worthless, especially when there are so many other options.

They are the most dependant on energy management for elementalist skills. Elementalists using ether prodigy while abusing other profession's skills feels rather laughable at times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

7. I NEVER run out of energy as an ele unless the shiyat really hits the fan i.e. everything I do is interrupted, I catch heavy edenial, or I'm living-impaired.

Must use alot of long recharge skills then, since you seem to hate the attunements.

Francis Crawford · May 22, 2006, 06:09 PM // 18:09

I'm beginning to think that the only way elementalists excel is by doing two things in the same attribute line, e.g.

A. Warding and damage (Earth)
B. Self-defense and damage (Earth solo farming)
C. Physical attack disruption and damage (Air)
D. Damage and knockdown (Meteor Shower)

But then, the same may be true of mesmers (Domination) and necros other than MMs (Blood, SS/SS).

I've just begun to dabble in warding builds, but early experience suggests they have the potential to be very effective in the streets, roofs, and tunnels of Kaineng.

Maria The Princess · May 23, 2006, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francis Crawford

I'm beginning to think that the only way elementalists excel is by doing two things in the same attribute line, e.g.

A. Warding and damage (Earth)
B. Self-defense and damage (Earth solo farming)
C. Physical attack disruption and damage (Air)
D. Damage and knockdown (Meteor Shower)

But then, the same may be true of mesmers (Domination) and necros other than MMs (Blood, SS/SS).

I've just begun to dabble in warding builds, but early experience suggests they have the potential to be very effective in the streets, roofs, and tunnels of Kaineng.

i like using air(spike)+water(slow down) for PVP

Francis Crawford · May 23, 2006, 05:17 AM // 05:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maria The Princess

i like using air(spike)+water(slow down) for PVP

What attribute mix? And what elite?

Ensign · May 23, 2006, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francis Crawford

I'm beginning to think that the only way elementalists excel is by doing two things in the same attribute line

It isn't neccessarily doing two things, it's realizing that you're a defensive character. Your job is to place wards and throw blinds and snares at warriors, and when the warriors are built you can assist by throwing an Orb, Obs Flame, or snare. In effect you share a role with the ritualist as a defensive specialist that can still contribute a little bit offensively (ritualists hit harder, elementalists hit more often).

Hence it isn't that the profession itself is awful, it's just that it is not good at what the vast majority of players thought it was good at. If the manual said "Elementalists have a wide selection of warrior disruption, and have great energy management for casting expensive skills from the other professions" I think there would be less complaints about elementalists sucking, and a lot more complaints about the game not having a viable 'nuking' profession.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francis Crawford

What attribute mix? And what elite?

Standard template is 13 Air, 10 Water, 10 Energy Storage, 8 Healing with Prodigy.

The funny thing is that Ice Spikes is a much stronger spike skill when it is up than Lightning Orb, as long as you have melee involved in the spike. The reason Orb is even playable is because of the fast recharge. You can use it to spike more frequently, but the reason the skill is valuable on this sort of guy is for split squad situations. An ele with an Orb can threaten a kill, albeit slowly. Without the Orb you can hold someone in place, but you're completely dependent upon your teammates to actually kill anything.

Peace,
-CxE

artay · May 29, 2006, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Blinding Flash, ward against melee, envergating charge, stoning, - Rinse and Repeat. (takes out any warrior in RA)(and most anywhere else, unless they have plague touch, i hate plague touch!)

frojack · May 29, 2006, 09:57 AM // 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

It isn't neccessarily doing two things, it's realizing that you're a defensive character. Your job is to place wards and throw blinds and snares at warriors, and when the warriors are built you can assist by throwing an Orb, Obs Flame, or snare. In effect you share a role with the ritualist as a defensive specialist that can still contribute a little bit offensively (ritualists hit harder, elementalists hit more often).

Hence it isn't that the profession itself is awful, it's just that it is not good at what the vast majority of players thought it was good at. If the manual said "Elementalists have a wide selection of warrior disruption, and have great energy management for casting expensive skills from the other professions" I think there would be less complaints about elementalists sucking, and a lot more complaints about the game not having a viable 'nuking' profession.
...

Then that is just silly isn't it? Elementalist's are supposed to be damage dealers. Not a support class. Sure, they can play those roles to. So can a warrior to some degree, with the tactics line (ok, bad comparision) but warriors, just like what elementalists are 'supposed' to be, deal damage as their primary function. It should be a 'choice' to support, not the only beneficial option.

Keeping exhaustion is the only way to really 'control' the power of elementalists, so it has to stay. However, it is a heavy cost and I think the spells that are linked to it should be buffed somewhat. Having armour ignoring potential for example. Mind Burn/Shock/Freeze, Earth Quake, etc. should all ignore armour.

Obsidian Flame is a good example of how exhaustion 'should' be used. Not tacked on to every other spell to fill up the description. Stupidly powerful spell, controlled by stupidly debilitating condition. Works fine.

This is not as over-powered as you may think. Prot spirit keeps it in check. A good Ritual Lord won't let the entire team suffer intensive spiking. In fact the only over-powered, high damage, spell spiking I have seen are from Necro life-stealing abilities. Can not be mitigated. Don't cause exhaustion.
Now that is quite bad. I mean, Vampiric Touch/Bite has a 2 second recharge! Compared to Obsidian Flame's 5 second recharge, that is quite an eye opener. They are fine though. Very powerful, but fine as they are.

On the energy cost of elemental spells. I can fully understand that. Keeps some spells out the reach of other classes. Energy management however, needs looking at.
The fact is that the 'best' elite elementalist skill, that everyone is always harping on about, also happens to be and E-management skill. What's up with that? Should a damage-dealing mage not be favouring a damage-dealing elite? Huge pool of energy but still having resource problems? That appears broken.

The attunements spells are just trash.

-They take an age to cast, so are prone to interruption.
-The recharge is stupid.
-They only recover a third of your spent energy.
-You don't even get any help before you cast. You get a crappy tax-rebate afterwards.
-The benefit can be completely nullified if you are interrupted.
-They can be shattered, just like all my hollywood dreams.

They are almost pointless.

-The energy gain should be upped to 50%.
-Cast time should be 1/4 second.
-Recharge should be 15 seconds, like Aura of restoration (this should be buffed also. 400% should be easier to achieve)

Ether Attunement elite? Bin it. Wanna' keep it? ok...

Change it completely.

-Drop recharge to 30 seconds, and drop duration to 30 also.

-Make it work like expertise for 'all' spells, but be linked to Energy Storage, maxing out at 33% cost reduction.

-It should help regenerate energy depleted by exaustion. Max should be +2 nrg every 3 seconds.

Maybe this should even be a natural aspect of Energy Storage. If so, then instead of the above...

-It provides +armour (30 max), gives you a maximum of 25% chance to 'block' attacks, and make it a stance instead of a spell.

With these changes, eles can finally become comparable killers. If some of this is considered overpowered, then the cost of spells can be slightly increased, without too much disruption. Maybe even take exhaustion up to 15 rather than 10. If natural Exhaustion regen is inherant to the primary attribute, 15 won't be too much of a problem... For elementalists. Everyone else, know your place.
For everyone who might say this would be unfair to shock-warriors. Well, so what? The warrior line has plenty of knockdown skills, use your own. Incidentally, they also have the best knockdown defense.

We warriors have run-riot in the meta-game for too long. It's our job, sure, but it's time for eles to be something more than just a secondary damage concern.

Phades · May 29, 2006, 10:38 AM // 10:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

Keeping exhaustion is the only way to really 'control' the power of elementalists, so it has to stay. However, it is a heavy cost and I think the spells that are linked to it should be buffed somewhat. Having armour ignoring potential for example. Mind Burn/Shock/Freeze, Earth Quake, etc. should all ignore armour.

Changing how the damage is caused in relationship to armor level will hurt one of those skills and have virtually no effect on the rest. Sure you could hit a warrior or a ranger with it and get the listed damage, but the listed damage is far too low as it is. If the damage isnt up to snuff, then the additional effects had better be worthwhile is the general philosiphy. However, with exhaustion tacked on with the skills you listed, it becomes a double edged sword. Due to the exhaustion it caps the maximum pool available, which caps the damage and additional effects of those eliete skills. Considering they are eliete and cause exhaustion, their base effect should be what it is now and basically double the output of all of them except perhaps mindshock, due to how armor penetration works with low armor levels.

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

Obsidian Flame is a good example of how exhaustion 'should' be used. Not tacked on to every other spell to fill up the description. Stupidly powerful spell, controlled by stupidly debilitating condition. Works fine.

Its relativly parallel to skills in the other lines. The only difference is that its recharge time allows the user to burn out, even though you arent really threatening anyone individually with it alone. Especially when considering unmitigated healing outstrips the damage inflicted easily and doesn't cause exhastion, casts in a fraction of the time, etc. The protection aspect you cover well enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

In fact the only over-powered, high damage, spell spiking I have seen are from Necro life-stealing abilities. Can not be mitigated. Don't cause exhaustion. Now that is quite bad. I mean, Vampiric Touch/Bite has a 2 second recharge! Compared to Obsidian Flame's 5 second recharge, that is quite an eye opener. They are fine though. Very powerful, but fine as they are.

Feast of corruption and desecrate enchantments can easily hit for more damage than the blood line in a single volley.

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

On the energy cost of elemental spells. I can fully understand that. Keeps some spells out the reach of other classes. Energy management however, needs looking at.

Its the ranger problem in a nutshell, except that energy storage doesnt work exactly like expertise unfortunatly. As a result, elementalists basically give up their eliete slot just to keep up with the overpriced skill selections opposed to enhancing the build with a more potent skill. In other words it enables the build to function at a normal level, opposed to having something that can alter how the class is played as a whole like air of enchantment for smiting monks for example.

artay · May 29, 2006, 11:28 AM // 11:28

Unsteady ground is a HUGE help against warriors DoT AoE plus knockdown if attacking (sorry just saw in pvp and thought i'd share withu guys)

Mysterial · May 29, 2006, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by artay

Unsteady ground is a HUGE help against warriors DoT AoE plus knockdown if attacking (sorry just saw in pvp and thought i'd share withu guys)

Unsteady Ground is absolutely horrendous and it's an insult that you have to burn your elite slot to get a DOT AoE that even approaches a usable recharge (not like 20 is that good either). If you use it for its conditional, you do no damage whatsoever because you're hitting Warriors and Rangers. It's sort of like Shield of Judgement, only worse.

Evilsod · May 29, 2006, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

Unsteady Ground is absolutely horrendous and it's an insult that you have to burn your elite slot to get a DOT AoE that even approaches a usable recharge (not like 20 is that good either). If you use it for its conditional, you do no damage whatsoever because you're hitting Warriors and Rangers. It's sort of like Shield of Judgement, only worse.

Churning Earth is more useful imo. There was an ele in FoW casting it earlier (i don't have a frigging clue why because NOTHING in there has a sprint technique). I can't remember the description though so it may actually do something i'm not aware of...

I say 1 of those spells should be made to affect players 'in stance'. Why just running or attacking? They should be knocked down and there stance should end. At least then it would have a use vs warriors using Rush/Frenzy. Not to mention hitting things like Mantra of Resolve, Serpents Quickness, Mantra of Recovery etc. Would that make the ele overpowered? Hardly, knowing Anet they'd stick a massive 25 energy cost, 50second cast time, 2hour recharge onto it, then make it elite so that no-one can use it effectively anyway.

Mysterial · May 29, 2006, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Churning Earth is more useful imo. There was an ele in FoW casting it earlier (i don't have a frigging clue why because NOTHING in there has a sprint technique). I can't remember the description though so it may actually do something i'm not aware of...

It knocks down people moving faster than normal. Which is hilarious, because you can't actually hit anyone moving faster than normal - a player moving at that speed will be out of the AoE in the one second it takes for the first hit to come.

Phades · May 29, 2006, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

It knocks down people moving faster than normal. Which is hilarious, because you can't actually hit anyone moving faster than normal - a player moving at that speed will be out of the AoE in the one second it takes for the first hit to come.

Meteor has the same problem. (Yes meteor, not meteor shower, due to the drop down from the sky mechanic)

frojack · May 29, 2006, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Changing how the damage is caused in relationship to armor level will hurt one of those skills and have virtually no effect on the rest. Sure you could hit a warrior or a ranger with it and get the listed damage, but the listed damage is far too low as it is. If the damage isnt up to snuff, then the additional effects had better be worthwhile is the general philosiphy. However, with exhaustion tacked on with the skills you listed, it becomes a double edged sword. Due to the exhaustion it caps the maximum pool available, which caps the damage and additional effects of those eliete skills. Considering they are eliete and cause exhaustion, their base effect should be what it is now and basically double the output of all of them except perhaps mindshock, due to how armor penetration works with low armor levels.

True enough, those Elite mind spells are poor as they are. However I was not tackling their effectiveness (that's a different conversation). I was talking about exhaustion in general. They we're examples. They currently cause the condition anyway right? Yet are still subject to armour level, reducing their damage significantly. That was my point.

Quote:

Its relativly parallel to skills in the other lines. The only difference is that its recharge time allows the user to burn out, even though you arent really threatening anyone individually with it alone. Especially when considering unmitigated healing outstrips the damage inflicted easily and doesn't cause exhastion, casts in a fraction of the time, etc. The protection aspect you cover well enough.

Who uses a spike at the beginning of a battle when all things are calm? Armour ignoring attacks are something you save for the 'kill'. Not your opening act. That's how I have always played Obsidian Spike. I could have miss-understood the point. If so, I apologise.

Quote:

Feast of corruption and desecrate enchantments can easily hit for more damage than the blood line in a single volley.

Both skills you mention (one being an Elite no less): The extra 'high' damage you speak of is for the most part, conditional. You cannot count on your opponent having hexes/Enchantments. Neither can you count on them being 'adjacent' to other similarly afflicted/buffed allies. Obsidian Flame & said vamp skills are not conditional.
They also have poor recharge. Something that cannot be said about Obsidian Flame and certainly not about the Vamp skills.

Quote:

Its the ranger problem in a nutshell, except that energy storage doesnt work exactly like expertise unfortunatly. As a result, elementalists basically give up their eliete slot just to keep up with the overpriced skill selections opposed to enhancing the build with a more potent skill. In other words it enables the build to function at a normal level, opposed to having something that can alter how the class is played as a whole like air of enchantment for smiting monks for example.

I do talk about the energy situation further on in the post. I hope you have read some of this. However, could you please elaborate on this ranger problem? This is the first thing I've heard about expertise having any problems at all. I currently don't see how that's possible.

Phades · May 29, 2006, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

Who uses a spike at the beginning of a battle when all things are calm? Armour ignoring attacks are something you save for the 'kill'. Not your opening act. That's how I have always played Obsidian Spike. I could have miss-understood the point. If so, I apologise.

It was an offshoot analogy of pressure with spike opposed to only spike damage. Comparitivly, you can have "spikey" pressure based damage from rangers with a similar build focus required to pull off a obsidian flame spike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

Both skills you mention (one being an Elite no less): The extra 'high' damage you speak of is for the most part, conditional. You cannot count on your opponent having hexes/Enchantments. Neither can you count on them being 'adjacent' to other similarly afflicted/buffed allies.

Monks are going to run divine boon, other professions will have enchantments as well. Discounting the effect given the nature of the skill is a mistake. As far as feast is concerned, considering its within the curses line littered with hexexs and some of them are aoe based, the issue of having a hex to amplify the damage is rather moot. You just get the side effect bonus of the hex doing whatever the hex is going to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

I do talk about the energy situation further on in the post. I hope you have read some of this. However, could you please elaborate on this ranger problem? This is the first thing I've heard about expertise having any problems at all. I currently don't see how that's possible.

Its not that expertise has a problem, its that it is a problem. Many of the ranger skills are similarly "overpriced" like elementalist skills are, due to expertise existing. The difference is they are getting a cost reduction passivly, which is similar to increasing the total energy pool, while at the same time as getting a bonus to energy regeneration by comparison. This allows rangers to easily exploit energy based skills from other professions as long as they do not have the "spell" attachment on them.

If energy storage was directly parallel to ranger expertise, then it would get bonus pips of energy regeneration passivly at different skill levels. The zealous mod with IAS can be factored in as well, but that is diverging from just the passive ability from the skill slightly. In essence, a ranger with 14 expertise is like having his energy capacity increased by 2/3rds, while at the same time posessing 5 pips of natural energy regeneration, instead of 3. A elementalist at a similar energy storage level, would have 6 pips of innate regeneration to be comparable.